2:25 am December 14, 2009, by David O'Brien
December 14th, 20095:11 pm
So the Phillies traded one $9 million year of Cliff Lee and 6 inexpensive years of Michael Taylor for the rights to give a 32-year-old Roy Halladay what’s probably going to be about $16 million a year for 5 years?
Wow. That is just ridiculous.
uh oh… ESPN is saying it’s Happ and not Lee in the deal. Is it too early to panick?
That makes WAY more sense. And no, it’s not too early.
December 14th, 20095:12 pm
” If you would’ve told me that we would’ve offered Soriano arbitration andd he didnt accept and we got the two draft picks or we offered Soriano arbitration and he accepted and we would get Jesse Chavez for him I would;ve taken the latter every day of the week”
December 14th, 20095:14 pm
Paul,I will take that bet if both of us agree not to post under a different moniker.
So, any thoughts on if Wren can unload Lowe’s entire contract that he’ll make a play for Bay?
I know they were a split second from getting Bay before and know that they really like his ability as well as his makeup.
A guy of his caliber at his age, I’d have no problem giving 5 years at 80 Mil, and I’d almost be willing to front load the contract just a tad for not only more incentive on his part, but to make it more affordable later to extend Yunel and Jair, which is the key for the Braves to become contenders once again.
Genuine impact bats like his only come around every once in awhile, and I truly feel like he is the final piece missing to overtaking the Phillies after obtaining the final two pieces of Wagner and Saito to stabilize the back end of the pen.
Chipper, BMac, and Yunel need protection in the 4 slot and neither Mike Cameron nor Xavier Nady is that guy. X would be a great supplemental signing, but anyone who believes that he and Cameron will help us overtake the Phillies needs to put the Kool-Aid down.
lol McFann that was great. Lowe and Ross are so silly.
L is for loser!
December 14th, 20095:15 pm
Robert (Chipper Is The Best0……………Sure, Derek Lowe could very well rebound and have a good year in 2010. If it happens, I would not be surprised.
However, given the fact that he is 37 years old……and the fact that it is very common for pitchers in their late 30’s to start declining (pitchers like Moyer, Clemens, Maddux, and Glavine who are good starting pitchers into their early 40’s are the exception to the rule…….not the rule)………..it would be a HUGE financial risk for a team to assume most if not all of Lowe’s remaining 3 year $45 mil contract.
And with the Angels being in the American League, Lowe’s numbers could well in fact get worse in 2010 if he has to pitch in the American League.
I’m just being realistic and playing the percentages. Trading for Lowe and assuming most if not all of his contract would be a HUGE risk, given the evidence of past players Lowe’s age who normally start to decline.
Burdell, where did you see Happ? The ESPN ticker I am watching still says Lee
the offensive power that is Marylon Byrd TennPaul
away from Texas Byrd has no offensive power, I hope that was sarcastic
December 14th, 20095:16 pm
Medlen looks like he’s wearing his dad’s uniform in that video.
wow. so philly is keeping lee????
if that is indeed the case, then it is most certainly time to panic.haha
Yeah, they were hilarious!
“Y is for…Yellowstone National Park. I have no idea!”
Robert (Chipper Is The Best0
Paul, most contracts on pitchers are a risk. The Burnett contract is a risk. The Red Sox took a risk on signing Lackey because now Beckett will demand at least that much when his contract is due. The Angels are in a big market where their fans expect to be contenders every year. The Angles have lost Lackey and Figgins and signing Matsui doesn’t counterbalance that. Right now the Angles are only the third best team in their division. I don’t think they will just accept that and move on.
December 14th, 20095:17 pm
CB…….I want to see one of my harshest critics have the nut sack to take this bet.
Relax people. The report says Lee is expected to go to Seattle.
Daslied Medlen looks like he’s wearing his dad’s uniform in that video.
Heh heh heh…
Rob in pain from (SC)
December 14th, 20095:18 pm
I can’t find any report that does not have Cliff Lee involved
I’d be cool with the Fillies ditching “JAY” Happ, though…
Paul Lentz- Paul man don’t do it. Your a jack a… but I love reading your post. the Braves are going to trade Lowe and eat at most $9M. Pull your bet now it is a sucker bet.
Lee and Michael Taylor were traded out of Philly for Halladay
December 14th, 20095:19 pm
Paul, I’ll leave the blog right now if you can guess what number I’m thinking.
Y is the hardest one in the planet!
Robert (Chipper Is The Best0…………I see the Angels signing a pitcher to a similar contract that the Cardinals signed Brad Penny to.
With Halladay going to the Phillies and the Mets going after Bay, are we resigned to fighting the Marlins for inconsequential third place yet again……?
Hanson looks like a douchebag
December 14th, 20095:20 pm
No I dont buy that Happ is the pitcher moving. Why would Seattle be involved then? I guess if the moved Blanton to Seattle and Happ to Toronto with Michael Tucker plus the prospects for Blanton.
Paul, I’ll leave the blog right now if you can guess my maiden name.
Ha! Trick question. I’m a dude.
December 14th, 20095:21 pm
Paul,I didn’t see any name mentioned when you said “Any Takers”. I am a “Taker”.
Here’s the last paragraph of the Foxsports.com report on Lee-Halladay:
As the blockbuster nears completion, the Braves are an interested bystander. The Angels now appear to be among the favorites to acquire Derek Lowe. They could offer outfielder Juan Rivera, who is the type of right-handed run producer that Atlanta is seeking.
That would be awesome.
I’m with you on Bay perhaps being the bat we add… in fact, I mentioned it a few hours ago on the blog. I really think we are gonna be surprised at who Wren gets after (and if) we can dump all of Lowe’s salary. In essence, the Lowe trade WILL net us a big bat in that the money we save will be used to sign/acquire said bat. At least that’s what I’m hoping… just a gut feeling. Wren has a way of surprising us when we least expect.
I can see some of you right now flipping back & forth from one site to the next with sweat pouring from your heads. Geez people, too much coffee or speed isn’t good for your health. I’m bored with this offseason too, but you really don’t have to post every little thing that goes on. Most of the rumors, I’ve learned, are simply BS anyways. They’re 15 year old kids with access to the internet trying to spew garnage because that’s funny & entertaining to them.
December 14th, 20095:22 pm
Here’s the link:
Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi or FOXSports.com just wrote “As the blockbuster nears completion, the Braves are an interested bystander. The Angels now appear to be among the favorites to acquire Derek Lowe. They could offer outfielder Juan Rivera, who is the type of right-handed run producer that Atlanta is seeking.”
Rosenthal says Lee to the Mariners
December 14th, 20095:23 pm
The reports of Happ instead of Lee were premature and based on Lee’s agent not hearing from the Phils yet. The good news is that it looks like the Phils are moving Lee + a top prospect (either Taylor or Brown) for 5 years of Doc (somewhere in the range of 19 to 20 per).
Yes. I believe Frank Wren is sitting in his office, twiddling his thumbs, whistling a catchy tune and pissing the time away. He’s just waiting for Christmas, so he can play with his new toys!
Braves Lifer………I appreciate compliments (I know I’m an A-hole). A-holes like me call it like I see it. If I was being complimented by some of these MORONS on here, I’d immediately question my take on what I was being complimented about. So in essence, when some of these MORONS attack me, I take it as a compliment because when I consider the source, I understand their ignorance.
Anyway, it is simply a pipe-dream for one to think that a team would be willing to pay Lowe $12 mil a season for 3 years (assuming the Braves eat only $3 mil per season of Lowe’s contract). From my perspective, it is a no-lose bet.
December 14th, 20095:24 pm
Paul, I have a bet. If Yunel Escobar spontaneously combusts I’ll leave the blog. If, instead, he merely grows a tail (literally, not potty humor) you have to leave.
They’re 15 year old kids with access to the internet trying to spew garnage because that’s funny & entertaining to them.
HEY! Your on thin ice pal…
December 14th, 20095:25 pm
I looked pretty good at 19 and 20 too, for the record. RHR
I’m sure you still look pretty good babe
phils got halladay? who cares? i shut his a$$ down last year and this year i will eat sushi off his wife’ ass… i am the sush1t!
Did I just read that correctly Erik?
Did you just namedrop Michael Tucker?
Its Taylor, and PLEASE, don’t ever mention that name again…the Tucker/Lockhart for Dye trade is one of JS worst of ALL TIME!
Braves Lifer, & you can almost count Rosenthal as that 15 year old kid spewing garbage if you want. He’s written some of the most obsurd things with the Braves & others that it’s really a joke. Even after I mentioned the Lowe for Rivera thing the other day I sat back & realized how dumb the Angels would have to be doing that. Unless we threw in a very good prospect & more cash, I seriously doubt that happens. I’m not bashing on you at all, just some of those writers.
December 14th, 20095:27 pm
lowe’s value just jumped significantly today. just wondering, if the braves traded vazquez to the angels, what kind of package would the braves get in return…
Paul, if Craig Counsell hits 89 homers next year I’ll give you a billion dollars. If he punches Don Zimmer in the junk you have to leave. We good?
Steve from OH
I wasn’t too hep on Rivera last offseason, but now that he’s put up a respectable full season in the AL, I’d be more than happy to recieve him for Lowe. He ain’t the run-producing cleanup bat we want, but he does have pretty solid pop and plays a solid LF. Hits for a good average, but he’ll never be a big OBP threat (career BB% of 6.5), which will ultimately limit his value to one of a solid regular. But hey, that’s good for us right now.
It would free up a lotta loot, too. That ain’t bad.
December 14th, 20095:28 pm
RC……….While I would LOVE to see the Braves SUCKER the Angels into accepting Lowe’s whole contract in exchange for Juan Rivera…………it simply isnt going to happen. The Angles are not that foolish.
You guys act like I dont want to see the Braves improve themselves. Of course I know that by dumping Lowe’s contract, the Braves would have more money to improve the offense.
However, I’m being a realist. If the Braves end up trading Lowe, they will have to eat a SIGNIFICANT part of his contract. No other way to put it. The only exception to this would be if the Braves show some courage and trade Lowe for Milton Bradley.
At least Juan Rivera never gets hurt. That’s the good thing.
Did you just say “pissing the time away”?
I’m likeling this trade from the Braves perspective, and they aren’t even involved in it. Halladay is an upgrade over Lee, but is there really going to be that much of a difference in how many games they win with Halladay now over Lee? Both of them are going to put up 15 or more wins in over the course of the season. This trade MIGHT give the Phillies 5 more wins, and they are giving something up to get those. If the Michael Taylor rumor is true, that would be great news that the Phillies are giving him up. He is rated as their best power prospect, and he can hit for average. Imagine what he might do in a ballpark like that if the Phillies held on to him and he developed well. I’ll be glad to see him traded. And might they be moving anything else? We’ll see.
Not to metion the market could really heat up for Lowe over the next few days. Lackey just signed with the Red Sox, a teamthat was not likely to be a suitor for Lowe. Halladay will be in Philly, also not a suitor for Lowe. We may have lost the Mariners as a trade partner once they get Lee, but that just means the Angels might make a desperation move for Lowe. They will have just lost out on their top 2 options, and their division rival will have just gained an ace. Remember what happened when the Braves lost out on Peavy and Burnett last year? Yeah, Lowe might be that desperate fallback again.
December 14th, 20095:30 pm
Did any of you guys play in ESPN’s ‘Streak for the Cash’ contest?
December 14th, 20095:31 pm
TnBrian……..well put with your 5:25pm posting.
At least Juan Rivera never gets hurt. That’s the good thing
Yeah, we wouldn’t want to build Rivera up based on his scouting reports and tools for Wren and then bash him for acquiring him when he gets hurt, would we? That would be hypocritical of us…
Would you rather take Rivera for Lowe and eat some money or trade Lowe for a couple low level prospects and sign Bay to a 5yr contract? Everyone get in on this.
Also, lets lay out the possible suitors for Lowe…
I can think of the Cubs and Angels off the top of my head. Who else comes to mind? Maybe the Yankees?
Finally, anyone listening to Frank’s interview on 1680..If so, what has been said?
December 14th, 20095:33 pm
Lowe will be gone by Christmas, if not this week, IMO.
njbraves-What you asked was if Ten Paul actually followed the Braves and I just pointed out he’s been here much longer than you, hence, yes, he DOES actually follow the Braves. Just because you don’t agree with all he says doesn’t make you any more knowledgeable or any more a fan than he is. Not everyone always agrees with what you or what I have to say. Life goers on. If you feel everyone here except for you is And Idiot, then why do you come here? To prove your superior knowledge and fanness? OK. Whatever.
December 14th, 20095:34 pm
Paul- “I appreciate compliments but”
Alright man I tried to warn you. IMO there is just way to many variables at play for you to say we will have to eat $5M per year of Lowe’s salary and your only situplation is a deal involving Milton Bradley makes it null. I can think of numerous contracts they braves could take on to not have to eat any of Lowe’s salary: Wells, Olie Perez, and Juan Pierre just to name a few. Or what if we trade Lowe to the Angels for Juan Rivera and kick in prospects to make up the difference in salary. Come on man to many suck outs on this bet.
Random – Chipper’s speed – I do recognize your good work in noting he had a dozen infield hits last year. I honestly can’t speak to how he got those. But by the same logic, it’s crap to say because he hit alot of doubles he must be fast. He hits alot of doubles because he’s a good slugger. He hits the ball far. Brian McCann hits plenty of doubles and you never disputed me saying he was slow.
I also know that in general video game stats are fairly accurate, especially for guys who have been in the league awhile. The professionals at MLB 09 – The Show say Chipper’s slightly on the slow side.
I’m not the only one that says we’re not a speed team. It comes up on here often, and I’m personally only moderately on the side of us being a base by base kind of team. People say we play station to station ball and wait for the 3 run homer. Just because you think the opposite doesn’t mean you are right or even in the majority opinion.
You imply that Wren knows alot about Soriano because he played here, which is of course true. But, by that logic, how does he know about Wagner? He’s choosing an unknown quantity in Wagner instead of a known quantity in Soriano. Wagner pitched very few innings in 2009 by which we can judge him, wheras Soriano pitched a full seasons worth. Both have pros and cons, but in the end plenty of neutral, unbiased people, unafiliated with either club often had Soriano ranked ahead of Wagner. I fully admitted at the time that many others rank Wagner ahead of Soriano.
December 14th, 20095:35 pm
Paul, for the third time I am telling you I am willing to call you on that bet. Are you a man of your word? I am a Taker. If you have a particular person you wanted to bet, you should have said their name.
December 14th, 20095:36 pm
According to Baseball Reference, the most similar player to Juan Rivera at this point of his career is….Xavier Nady!
But, wow, in 2009 he had almost exactly a career average year for himself. Career wise, he is .285/.331/.470. In 2009 he was .287/.332/.478. His lifetime career numbers per 162 games: 23 hr/86rbi/69 runs/29 doubles/37 walks. In 2009? 25 hr/88 rbi/72 runs/24 doubles/36 walks.
December 14th, 20095:37 pm
njbraves-And just so you don’t think I’m being contentious with you, you might ask Ten Paul how many times over the past five plus seasons we’ve been here that we’ve disagreed with each other. We’ve been known to disagree.
December 14th, 20095:38 pm
Lew…….it is common on this thread for people to rip others who disagree with them. Instead of having a healthy debate……..they resort to name calling.
When I am called names, I hit back. Then they cry about it.
If a person is willing to post their view on something…then dont be surprised when someone calls you on it and challenges you to defend your position or view.
I have no problem with defending my view or position on something. If you are right, then there should be no shame in defending your position.
However, there are many on here who get butt-hurt when they are asked to explain the reasoning behind their postings. TOO FREAKING BAD.
December 14th, 20095:39 pm
wow, Michael Taylor, Phillipe Aumont, Michael Saunders and brandon morrow being discussed as going to the Jays. Gotta say, they should be getting a nice return.
I’m not as huge on Juan Rivera as some are but I could live with him. But in that case the Braves should ask for Reggie Wilits along with him.
Lentz…no way the Braves eat 5 mill each year unless they are given someone solid back like Rivera…otherwise I see them eating only 2-3 mill per or eating none and getting a marginal prospect in return
I fully expect the Lowe market to take shape quickly and for him to be gone by the end of the week.
CB………….you are right, I should have been more specific in my “any takers” posting.
MLB.com reporter just tweeted that it will be until tomorrow until there’s an official announcement. We can all go back to our lives.
December 14th, 20095:40 pm
and by tomorrow, I mean Wednesday.
December 14th, 20095:41 pm
“Robert (Chipper Is The Best0
December 14th, 2009
I’m not as huge on Juan Rivera as some are but I could live with him. But in that case the Braves should ask for Reggie Wilits along with him.”
Then how much of Lowe’s contract do you think the Braves should eat? (Hint–hope they are hungry!).
That fangraphs article comparing Cameron to Bay that someone linked to the other day was pretty convincing. The Braves should be more nterested in Holliday than Bay.
December 14th, 20095:42 pm
Riddle me this Batman (or anyone else)- Pretend you are the Angels and you just lost out on your top two Ace options (Lackey and Halladay). You are panicking right now. You know the Braves are dangling Lowe out there for the taking. Who do you have on your board that is a free agent or trade bait that you can grab that can meet the talent and the relative low acquisition of Lowe in terms of (players and money if/when the Braves eat some of it)?
Ewwww. I’ll take music they play in hell for $400, Alex.
RC – I know the conventional wisdom is that the Phillies will have to cut payroll and that therefore trading someone like Michael Taylor hurts alot. But do we “know” they will have to cut payroll, or is it possible the Phillies are simply a big budget club now and will make things work to keep a strong team year after year.
If what has been reported is true, then the Braves will most certainly be dealing Lowe pretty soon. While I don’t feel Philly will see a drastic win differential from Doc over Lee, I think it is safe to say the Braves aren’t going to deal Vazquez and keep Lowe thus weakening their pitching while the Phillies signed the best in baseball.
December 14th, 20095:43 pm
Lowe isn\’t going anywhere folks. He will be a Brave next season and we will finish 4th.
December 14th, 20095:45 pm
Random,you were correct in your description.
December 14th, 20095:46 pm
I myself don’t care what anyone says, I still want Atkins UgaAcct
yup, that career 735 OPS away from Coors is mighty impressive
December 14th, 20095:47 pm
“Lowe isn\’t going anywhere folks. He will be a Brave next season and we will finish 4th.” – NICK
Aren’t you a big ol’ barrel full of sunshine?!
December 14th, 20095:48 pm
I just dont see how Halladay instead of Lee can result in a better team. Maybe one more win. I still am puzzled to why there is a trade involving both of those guys.
I like this trade for the simple fact that it will make for one less lefty for us to have to face with our lh leaning lineup.
On another subject, I will double down with CB on the bet Mr. Lentz, with another caveat…If the Braves are able to get a Juan Rivera or someone of the like with a manageable contract. I feel like, correct me if I’m wrong, that you are suggesting we will have to eat $5 million and get nothing of quality back. I don’t see that happening. I think that we can eat a small amount and throw in a midlevel prospect to get something back of quality.
Braves Lifer…….you brought up what appears to be a few valid points with your 5:34pm posting.
However, do you really think that the Braves would swap Derek Lowe for Oliver Perez? What is the reasoning for trading a 6th starting pitcher who is hard to trade (Derek Lowe)……for another one who is even harder to trade (Oliver Perez)? Isnt the reasoning of trading Lowe to get enough salary relief to improve the offense?
Also, due to the Dodgers financial problems with the messy divorce of the Dodgers owners……..I dont see the Dodgers taking own a contract like Lowe’s. Also, Juan Pierre does not give the Braves the kind of offensive power that the Braves are seeking. And he is left handed as well.
Now, Vernon Wells of the Blue Jays appears to make the most sense of your scenarios. However, given Wells’ decline the past couple of years….I do not see the Braves taking on his contract. His contract is even more expensive than Lowe’s.
What prospect do you think that the Braves would be willing to include in a swap of Lowe for Rivera to the Angels that would make it worth it for the Angels? The Braves are not going to give up either Heyward or Freeman. I dont see anyone else in the Braves system that would warrant the Angels willing to assume most, if not all of Lowe’s contract.
I thought about a number of these scenarios (and others). I just dont see the Braves being able to trade Lowe UNLESS they eat a SIGNIFICANT part of Lowe’s contract.
December 14th, 20095:49 pm
Nolie – Not my quote. I argued against Atkins. I don’t want Random to come back and say I said that.
Bravo fan from Chitown
Seems as though the Mike Lowell to Rangers for Milwood deal is falling apart. If Lowell is willing to play 1st, do you think the Braves may offer Lowe or try to acquire Lowell from Boston? Lowe seemed to do well in boston before, and Lowell seems to offer the offense the Braves are looking for.
Remember people there are 2 nick’s in here. Nick and nick(me).
December 14th, 20095:50 pm
Bunch of you have asked me if Wren will be pressured to do something he hadn’t planned to do because of the Halladay trade. Why? If the Phillies traded Cliff Lee to get Roy Halladay, OK, they went from one elite pitcher to one slightly more elite pitcher. But it’s not like they added Halladay to the rotation and kept Lee. They traded one of the best pitchers in the game for an even better pitcher. But how does that affect them to any signficant degree in the other four games between Halladay starts?
Bay Area Steve
I despise you. I hate you. I would like to do bodily harm to you. If there is a harsher critic of yours than I, I’d like to meet ‘im.
I’ll take the bet, with CB’s addendum, that neither of us post at all, under any name.
I’ll do so even knowing Random’s, and my own, opinion of your word.
I’ll take it now, please.
What you fail, in your self-centered world, to realize, is that, for me, it’s not about right or wrong, eating 16 million, or 14 million. It’s simply about getting you to shut up. I don’t need to see my name here. At those stakes, I don’t care if I’m a 100-1 dog. Bet, please.
I said that at 5:33….
Now Yankees and Angels should be looking at Lowe.
December 14th, 20095:51 pm
I’d trade Vazquez to the Marlins if they gave us Hanley Ramirez N8
I’d want Uggla too in that deal
December 14th, 20095:52 pm
Lentz – You might want to reconsider your bet. If we take Gary Matthews Jr. in return for Lowe, the Angels might need to pay us to do so. Bradley’s not the only contract significantly worse than Lowe’s.
Reggie Willitzs? Really? Why? In 663 AB .265/.365/.309/.674…0 HR and 27 2B. AND he will be 29 this season. The Angels can keep him.
December 14th, 20095:53 pm
Is this before or after the sky falls?
December 14th, 20095:54 pm
DOB, completely agree. I think the Phillies might end up helping Atlanta more than they help themselves if this opens up the dialogue between FW and Tony Reagins
NEW CARS……….I’m waiting for my harshest critics to take the bet. They know who they are.
I’m not going to take a bet from names I dont recognize. Chances are, the names I dont recognize is really in fact one of my harshest critics going incognito.
The Angels are not going to give up a good power hitter with a team friendly contract…….in exchange for assuming most, if not all of a 37 year old pitcher with a 3 year $45 mil contract. What “mid-level” prospect do you think the Braves could throw in that would entice the Angels into making such a risking financial trade?
Bravo fan: We mentioned a Lowe-for-Lowe trade idea here during Winter Meetings. Can’t tell you if it’s actually been considered by the actual teams, but we did bring it up here after discussion with Red Sox writer Nick Cafardo. Only because Red Sox have indicated they’ll eat most of Lowell’s contract to move him. So you gotta think they might, if interested in Lowe, be willing to take on most of Lowe’s contract and maybe not eat as much of Lowell’s, or whatever.
Again, I don’t know if there’s anything there, if it’d be considered. Lowell (or Chipper) would have to move to first, position neither has played.
December 14th, 20095:55 pm
Juan Rivera for Derek Lowe…….Ideal
Bay Area Steve,
Your a mad man, your crazy! Don’t it, your risking everything you have!
(If this were a movie, this would be the part where you defy all doubt and rise above)
Wow, can I say once again how sick I am of the phrases:
“Bill James projected him at ______ for 2010″
“So FanGraphs said ____________ ”
If everyone listened to that place, both Francoeur and Kelly would still be playing and starting in Atlanta and Blaine Boyer would be our freakin closer!
I say again, who on the Yankees roster would we really want? Please don’t sign Gardner or Swisher. Heck, Diaz is better offensively than Cabrera too. I don’t see a good match with the Yankees…..at least not straight up.
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