2:25 am December 14, 2009, by David O'Brien
Andrew in PA
December 14th, 200911:27 pm
this could mean nothing at all because money talks..talked to a pirates fan today and ask him if bay would like to play in new york and he said no he isnt that kind of guy..loved boston though..if braves could trade lowe soon..they maybe could land bay at 5/80
Braves Lifer………if I was wrong about Kelly Johnson. do you think that the MORONS on my case would “move on”? Hell, no. They would be lighting up the blog about how wrong I was.
Just wait until the Lowe situation is resolved. When I’m proved right, these MORONS will just twist it and say that “I’m always wrong”.
Now I know why they wont give me my props. Giving me my props would signal to them how inadequate and stupid they are.
chip off the ol block
December 14th, 200911:28 pm
my bad Paul, i thought since there was so much “tension” that you werent a Braves fan
Random AKA “shyster”……………I dont make deals with SHYSTERS like you. I made my bet with Bay Area Steffi.
It was a 2 yr deal worth around 15.5
December 14th, 200911:29 pm
glord1- In response to your 11:23. Are all the 33 player available now? No. Did Lackey serve as the Angels Ace? Yes. Was a team willing to pay $85M? Yes. I am guessing that you really didn’t think about your question. Lots of teams were interested in Lackey because he is good. Is he worth $85M? According to the Red Sox he is. Who am I to doubt a major league baseball team and their countless executives who had to approve this trade?
Paul Lentz whens the last time the cowgirls won a playoff game? Seriously you guys were good 20 years ago stop harping on your superbowls 20 years ago
December 14th, 200911:30 pm
Bay lives right outside Seattle. Seattle needs a run producer and he has said he would love to play there. Seattle will ink him by Christmas.
Canadian Braves Fan
December 14th, 200911:31 pm
if more than one person takes Lentz’s bet and wins his time off should double atleast
Andrew in PA……actually we won our last Super Bowl in Jan.1995. 15 years ago.
Like I said, when you guys win one…..get back at me.
i know it would be good for the braves to get anything for lowe not to mention someone who hit 25 home runs last year,but doesnt it worry anyone that he only ever has 2 season of 20 or more home runs with 2 or 3 years seperated between them?
December 14th, 200911:33 pm
Paul Lentz like i said Dallas is garbage ..get over it
December 14th, 200911:34 pm
Andrew in PA
The difference in HR is amount of playing time he received. When given a chance to play almost everyday the guy produces.
December 14th, 200911:35 pm
How is Rivera’s Defense?
CAMERON to the SOX? Thank god, we’ll have no more conjecture about him.
December 14th, 200911:36 pm
“Just wait until the Lowe situation is resolved. When I’m proved right, these MORONS will just twist it and say that “I’m always wrong”.”
Paul learn some grace man. You were right. That being said you are going to be wrong on the Lowe trade. In my estimation based on Fangraphs and the other five contracts handed out to SPs this year; Lowe is worth about $12-$13M a season coming off of his down year. Now as DOB suggested if we trade Lowe for a team friendly contract like Rivera we may eat more of Lowe’s contract. That does not mean Lowe isn’t work $12-$13M that means that Rivera is worth more than $4.5M. In addition supply and demand will likely push Lowe’s value up because there just isn’t a pitcher available at his talent level anymore and the Angels need to counter the Mariners moves.
DOB – You do good work, but the argument that Braves would be paying Lowe $27 mil for a season is flawed (although mathematically correct in above scenario.) It saves the Braves $33 mil – that’s what’s important. $11 mil/yr. Payroll flexibility is the key. We have a budget – this is not KU hoops.
An 8-5 record is not “garbage”.
By the way, how are the 2 pill popping sons of your head coach doing? Are they still in jail or rehab?
Also, how’s your boy Michael “who let the dogs out” VIck doing?
December 14th, 200911:38 pm
P’cola are you sure he wasnt hurt all those years?
December 14th, 200911:39 pm
Paul, actually Vick is playing very well these past 2 games with 3 td’s..probably more then tony homo himself..hahaha
Braves Lifer – I thought through my question and already knew the answer. They paid him because that is what he is worth based on past and projected future performances. I wanted Paul to answer using his logic as to why any GM would give this contract based on Lackeys mediocre numbers last year. That is the same logic that he is using to tell me Millwood is better than Lowe.
December 14th, 200911:40 pm
oh im sorry maybe its just your december record that is so bad
December 14th, 200911:41 pm
glord1- Well that makes me look foolish then. Good logic. I agree with you.
fwiw, fangraphs had Lowe being worth exactly $12 mil last season and he’s projected to bounce back and be worth over $17 mil next season
December 14th, 200911:42 pm
Cameron was not that high on my wish list either….glad we didn’t end up with him too. Of the “likely” free agents for which the Braves could afford, I was hoping more for Nady. If the Braves end up getting Rivera in a trade…wouldn’t they end up shifting their free-agent attention to a 1B? If so….who would be the likely candidates? Aside from Nady… offensively he would be OK, but what about defensively?
December 14th, 200911:43 pm
Wow- Arizona has 7 turnovers tonight…
December 14th, 200911:45 pm
Heres a question. Why would the Braves eat a huge amount of Lowe’s contract in order to acquire Rivera, when they could possibly just trade Lowe and almost all of his salary for nothing in return and just sign a guy like Bay or Holliday? I mean it they Braves are going to still have a total of 15mil/per tied up in a Lowe/Rivera trade, why not trade for nothing in return and sign Bay or Holliday…or do they not want to go 5yr on an OF spot.
P. W. Hjort
Average of $5 mill over next two seasons for a guy who produced the numbers he put up in 2009?
He had a good season. 25 HR’s, .287 AVG, .332 OBP, though, which leaves something to be desired. And a .478 SLG%, which is nice enough in it’s own right, but isn’t great for a LF’er.
I’m with you, I’d trade Lowe and eat $12 million for Rivera, but you could certainly see how some teams would look at his .246/.282/.438 line in 256 PA’s in 2008 or the fact that he only accumulated 44 PA’s in 2007, or the fact that he’s only had three MLB seasons, out of nine total (OK, that’s a little unfair, 2001 he was basically a Sept. call-up, so 3 out of 8), that he’s done anything remotely close to “good”, and view the contract–even at 2 years, $9.5 million–as risky.
Yeah, he had a good year in 2009. We all know what he’s capable of. But he also had a bunch of very bad years, years that if he had again in 2010 or 2011, his contract–even at $9.5 million over 2 years–would be a burden to the team.
December 14th, 200911:46 pm
Not sure if he was hurt or what but he played 14 gms in ‘07 and 89 in ‘08.
December 14th, 200911:47 pm
Hey remember all those dumb Soriano and prospects for Crawford or Pena proposals and such?? You morons are doing it again with the Lowe for Morales and maybe Rivera (could happen with money) but please lets say Lowe to the Angles for the #15 and 25 prospects with no money eaten thats what we are looking at. get the f**k outta here with the Morales crap remember hes the reason they let Tex go. And the Angles are the same team that gave us Kotchman and Marek for tex they kinda know what they are doin.
December 14th, 200911:49 pm
African Safari- I am not sure what we are going to do if we trade Lowe for Rivera and don’t have to eat that much salary. Basically now we are at $88M. Trade Lowe for Rivera that means the best case senerio is that we are at $77.5M for a 1B, 4th OFer, RP, and another role player. There just arn’t any 1B on the FA market worth much than $10M a year. Any money we eat on Lowe will add to that $77.5 figure.
December 14th, 200911:51 pm
Braves Lifer -
If LaRoche is not able to be had (probably not because of $, but because of length of contract)… I don’t see a lot of options either. Could that hold up a pitcher-for-OF trade? Hmmm.
December 14th, 200911:53 pm
I’d rather have dye and nady/derosa then rivera….give derosa 2 years with opt for 3rd,sign dye for 1 year..then if dye does really well bring him back,or if we would be ready to dump him after one year then move derosa to left and bring up freemam
December 14th, 200911:54 pm
I saw on mlbtr Roachy wants 3 yr 31.5 id say length and money would hold that up
What happens if some accepts the bet, and then upon “losing”, comes on the blog anyhow? Then what? Will that person spontaneously combust? Will there be nothing but a little globule on their computer chair? Will that person choke on somebody else’s vommit? That would be tragic. Because, as most of you know…. you can’t dust for vommit.
December 14th, 200911:55 pm
OK….gonna watch “Men of a Certain Age” that I recorded the evening and go to bed. Night all.
December 14th, 200911:56 pm
I think Nady and Rivera are the best two options for this team. Both have solid power and good averages.
December 14th, 200911:58 pm
You were right about KJ. I don’t think that anyone is arguing it. Lifer
FCS, most of us were right, not just him.
December 14th, 200911:59 pm
Even if we eat $5M per for a Lowe-Rivera trade that still leaves us at $83.5M and in a beautiful cap situation for our remaining needs. LaRoche is looking for 3yr $30M+; which I aggree with you is too much. I am not sure what they would do to occupy 1B for the next 1-2yrs.
10:12pm: Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun (via Twitter) has Toronto getting Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, and Travis D’Arnaud; Philly getting Roy Halladay and Phillippe Aumont; and the Mariners getting Cliff Lee, plus another piece (or, pieces).
This has more twists and turns than a roller coaster.
December 15th, 200912:01 am
P’cola,rivera has 2 season for 20 plus homers…3 years in between each..he cant be a better option then dye im sorry..sure his average is better..we need longballs..im not sure but i dont think rivera is that great in the field
December 15th, 200912:03 am
That would be tragic. Because, as most of you know…. you can’t dust for vommit. (N8)
This has more twists and turns than a roller coaster. (BravesFanChris25)
You said it. I gave up on following that rumor hours ago. Waiting for the PC before I even opine.
December 15th, 200912:04 am
Go Cowboys!! I’m a fan too Paul. We have struggled but we still control our own destiny. Do not for get this everyone!!!
December 15th, 200912:05 am
Keith Law on the market for OF’s now that Cameron has signed:
With Cameron signing, the only free agent outfielders who are definitely everyday players are Matt Holliday, Jason Bay and Johnny Damon, with the next tier comprising guys like Marlon Byrd, Randy Winn, Xavier Nady, Coco Crisp and Jermaine Dye, each of whom has a major red flag like injury, age, or (in Byrd’s case) a big home/road split. Teams looking for impact bats, especially in the outfield, are seeing their choices dwindle.
December 15th, 200912:06 am
I’m from Nebraska and had a question for Atlanta peeps. Does anyone like the Hawks down there?? Saw a game on TV the other day the stands were just about empty. Just wondering, sorry.
The only question remaining on Kelly “The Kurgan” Johnson is … do the Braves sign him (as a free agent) to a club friendly contract for less than 80% of his 2009 salary?
I would say Rivera is better than Dye in the field. Dye is degressing why Rivera is close to his peak I would Imagine. I would take the two years of Rivera over another aged outfielder anyday.
December 15th, 200912:07 am
“We have struggled but we still control our own destiny.”
I was going to ask who’s Destiny? Sounds like a stripper or an escort. Then I realized it was posted by Tiger Woods.
December 15th, 200912:08 am
Dye is 4 years older than Juan Rivera. Also, when you factor in defense (Dye was terrible last year by any defensive metric), Rivera is greatly superior (sure, this is if you only look at this past season). As much as I still remember Dye homering on his first major league AB, Rivera is a better option than Dye.
December 15th, 200912:10 am
He’s overpriced at $11 mill per year, but not terribly so, not if he produces close to what he did last season. DOB
he’s terribly overpriced if he has any other year in his career besides last year, and his history sure indicates that was the fluke year so far. There is a heck of a chance that he regresses, he might not but the odds are against him having two more years in a row like last year.
December 15th, 200912:11 am
Braves’s biggest need is a first baseman.
I seem to remember reading that Nady, coming back from TJ surgery, is not eligible to play the outfield. He would be limited to first base. (I can’t source this, but I think it was mentioned during the season after his surgery.)
I know that Wren could always walk it back, but I think he was asked directly if he would participate in the bidding for Bay or Holliday, and he indicated that he would not.
December 15th, 200912:14 am
Cards to offer Holliday $16mil over 8 years?????
P. W. Hjort, that’s a reasonable point by Law. But the key word is “free agents” (ok… 2 words).
I’m going to go with the guess that Wren might be thinking platoon early in the year, and let Heyward take over at some point. I have to believe (unless he’s trade bait) that Schafer is in the mix. If Schafer outshines Heyward in the spring, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Wren to start Schafer in a platoon to start the season, and bring up Heyward later.
So perhaps, Nady is their guys, but not to be an everyday player? Or somebody similar to him.
I’m more worried about 1B than the OF. Get a big bat for 1B, and the outfield will take care of itself, imo. What I don’t want is for Wren to be fooled into thinking he’s “fixing” the hole at 1B with a guy like Dye. A guy not as powerful as he used to be and zero experience over their defensively.
Find a 1B that can hit and field. Pay him a reasonable contract (2 years with a club option for a third with decent buyout), and scrape up an OF bat (but somebody that can field).
Dump Lowe. Extend Vazquez. Off season done.
What would be top 5 teams that we could trade Lowe too?
December 15th, 200912:15 am
Thats an saverage of $16mil a year for 8 years. The other way would be silly.
Trade for Rivera, sign Dye to play 1st, put Heyward in Right
“Cards to offer Holliday $16mil over 8 years?????”
WOW. That’s it? Certainly Wren can top that. 2 million per year is NOTHING.
The Cardinals have offered Matt Holliday a deal which would pay him $16MM per year for at least eight seasons, writes Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
Boras is also seeking full no-trade protection for Holliday
Well, so much for that idea. As if it wasn’t dead already.
Beat me to it Mitchie. But I knew what you meant. LOL
December 15th, 200912:17 am
HOlliday will prob end up with the Angels my guess. Him or Bay will be an Angel.
Braves outfield depth (right now) …
McLouth, Diaz, Schafer, Heyward, Blanco, Gorecki, B. Jones
If the Braves add someone like Bay or Holiday or Rivera and Heyward is ready to go in 2010, I guess that means Schafer marks time in AAA or McLouth or Diaz has to go.
December 15th, 200912:19 am
LOl… I had to fix it. I knew someone would say something….
December 15th, 200912:23 am
Holy Cow! With that much money, Holliday can pay for Health Care Reform all by himself.
December 15th, 200912:24 am
That is prob the max the Cards can offer Holliday without putting in jeopardy the chance to sign Pujols.
That’s silly, stupid money for Holliday. Pujols is currently going to make 16 million in 2010 and 16 more if the option in 2011 is picked up. If he goes to free agency, you can bet your ass he’s going to be in the 20-23 million range.
Are the Cardinals REALLY going to possibly have upwards of 39 million tied up into 2 position players? Or are they planning ahead to a possible Pujols departure?
Add to that, Wainwright is scheduled to make 13 million in 2013 (his walk year), and Carpenter will make 15 million in each 2011 and 2012.
Let’s flashforward to 2011, shall we?
Holliday 16M, Pujols 16M, Carpenter 15M, Kyle Loshe 11.87M, Lugo 9M, Molina 7M, Wainwright 6.5M = 81.5 Million dollars on 7 guys. Their entire 2009 payroll is listed at 88 million dollars.
Do the math. How in the hell does that make sense for the Cardinals?
We need to sign Nady. He is the best out there. Get him under contract quick we need his power on this team. Please Wren!!
December 15th, 200912:26 am
So what do they offer King Albert next year? and how can they possibly afford two such contracts/
How much is $16 million after taxes? Like $4 million, right?
December 15th, 200912:29 am
Exactly nolie. Pujols is already making 16 million the next two years.
If Matt Holliday is worth 16 million per season (really not out of line – but 8 years??? DAMN!), what the hell is Pujols “worth”? I think his contract will rival Arod’s. I think the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels and maybe even the Cubs (new ownership), drive that price of Pujols up to the sky. Unless, Pujols has already given them a sign he’ll take 18-20 million per year to remain a Cardinal.
But man alive. I thought Wren overpaid for Lowe. That’s lunacy is what that is.
December 15th, 200912:30 am
So, how does Holliday at $16 million benefit the Braves?
I know! Braves sign Kelly “The Kurgan” Johnson to a free agent contract and then trade him to the Cardinals for Albert Pujols. Braves could real quick sign Greg “The Gourd” Norton and throw him in as a sweetener (talk about haggling).
Gets the Braves their first baseman. Clears payroll for the Cardinals on that bad Pujols contract.
So, there you go, Kelly Johnson and Greg Norton for Albert Pujols.
Get it done, Frank.
December 15th, 200912:32 am
Andrew in PA………what is the Eagles January record?
December 15th, 200912:33 am
John Kruk just said he is already giving Halladay the CY young for next year. Not a bad pick prob.
That’s lunacy is what that is. N8
I saw your research after I posted that quip, good job;and you’re right it seems pretty silly unless like you say Albert has given them a strong idea of his plans. Perhaps they see no way they can keep him next contract time and are stocking up.
December 15th, 200912:34 am
N8……………Boston is paying virtually all of Lugo’s salary.
Brandon from Warner Robins
December 15th, 200912:38 am
The banter between the denizens provides great entertainment when we’re supposed to be stocking shelves. Great work everybody!!
Tiger Woods, yeah, I really think Nady would be a very good signing. He can come back strong & turn out to be one of Wren’s better signings as the Braves GM.
any way we can put paul dense comments in pink, so we can all skip over them easier
December 15th, 200912:45 am
OK Paul. It’s still 74.5 million for 7 guys.
Alright, now I’m miffed. I realize that early in the year I was “on” Vazquez. I’ve also stood my ground that if we are to get a big bat (or at least a bigger one than Lowe would bring), Vazquez might be our best trade option.
That being said, the douchebags on ESPN were just talking about Seattle having the best 1-2 punch in baseball, with Lee and Hernandez. Really?
It simply amazes me how LITTLE pub and press JJJ gets. Dude is so far under the radar he’s got dirt in his nostrils.
First of all Lincecum/Cain, Wainwright/Carpenter and JJJ/Vazquez (not even factoring in Hanson and/or Hudson are all better 1-2 punches than those two.
If Cole Hamels rebounds to 2008 form, Halladay/Hamels will be better than them. Hell, statistically, Randy Wells and Ted Lilly might have been a better combo than Lee and Hernandez are.
Are they a good combo at the top of a rotation? Hell yeah. Seattle is probably the team that actually improved at a bigger margin than Philly did in this trade. But for crying out loud, somebody give Jurrjens some damn love.
December 15th, 200912:46 am
The Hawks are developing a following and have a very small avid following, but they are starting to win over some more of the very fickle Atlanta sports fans. A lot of it depends on the magnitude of the game though. They’ll struggle to get 12,000 in for a weeknight against a lower tier team but when the big teams come in the place is packed and the fans are very intense. Somehow despite the poor attendance, it has been one of the hardest places for visiting teams to win at the past 3 seasons.
Paul Lentz, im not sure but i THINK since 06 they were like 13-4
December 15th, 200912:49 am
Andrew since 06 the Eagles are 3-2 in January (all playoff games)
Understand what you are saying N8, but they have two guys that could have won the Cy young in their respective leagues. There are some darn good 1-2 punches out there but Seattle now has probably one of the top 2 I would say. Hernandez is straight up filthy and may be the best pitcher in the AL behind Greinke. Right now I would say Hernandez is probably a little better than JJ, and Lee is better than Vaz by a bit just because of his track record. I can’t really disagree with ESPN on this one.
December 15th, 200912:51 am
braves fan, better then a goose egg ..and romo fumbling snaps to lose games
In December they are 11-3
Oh i don;t care about either team just letting you know
How do the Phils get Halladay and still get prospects. Thats a crazy trade.
December 15th, 200912:52 am
anyways,i really like the mariners getting lee,we all saw how good he is,i think the mariners are the team to beat right now in the west,maybe the mariners will still try to snag lowe they have money still lee only makes 9
December 15th, 200912:54 am
p’cola,phillies are giving up lee,their tommy hanson in drabek,a top outfield prospect and catching prospect
To anybody on here advocating a Lowe for Rivera trade: exactly why would the Angels make that deal?
There are a half dozen or so free agent starters who may not be as good as Lowe, but will cost a whole lot less and not require the trade of a quality bat.
If the Angels had someone ready to step in and take Rivera’s job, maybe they’d do it. But I doubt they see Gary Matthews Jr. as a viable option.
Given the salary situations, they would certainly do a Lowe for Matthews deal, but the Braves would never make that trade.
Just like the Angels aren’t going to trade Rivera for Lowe. Regardless how much of Lowe’s contract the Braves assume.
Since the Braves can’t afford Bay or Holliday, that leaves quite a few less than attractive options. LaRoche is looking better and better every day, but he probably doesn’t fit in the Braves’ plans unless they’re not as sold on Freeman as they seem to be.
Johnny Damon? Carlos Delgado? Jermaine Dye?
Any of those seem appealing?
Steve from OH
December 15th, 200912:59 am
Excellent question. Just depends on how much the industry values D-Lowe, I guess. Which is why I think P-Lentz’s bet is pretty disingenuous, because how much (if at all) of his contract we eat depends on who we get in return, so the same team that would trade him straight-up for Brandon Wood (hypothetically, of course, no suggestions or whatever) might ask for cash in exchange for Rivera. And someone, whoever it is, will win the bet when in fact it may not tell us anything about Lowe’s percieved value in the industry–only about what Wren percieves as the best deal. Wren might prefer to eat salary to get a better player. Does that mean we had to eat salary? Maybe not. Anyone, whoever they may be, who thinks they know the absolute truth is fooling themselves. Eh, wouldn’t be the first time.
I’ll tell you why they will do the deal. They have Matsui for DH and Abreu and Hunter for the OF. Only one more spot. Right now its Rivera but will more likely to be Bay or Holliday. If they have a good chance to sign Bay or Holliday then Rivera will be shipped out for Lowe to make him cheaper. They need a durable, proven, veteran starter for the front of the rotation and Lowe fits the bill.
December 15th, 20091:00 am
if glaus is healthy ? still has bat speed? id get him and a speedster for outfield , like gardner from yanks
December 15th, 20091:06 am
Do the Angels have enough money to sign a Bay and trade for Lowe?? Thats taking on a LOT of cash. Are you saying we would have to eat quite a bit of money??
December 15th, 20091:08 am
No I’m not saying we have to eat much. But they had Vlad, Figgins and Lackey come off the books. Lackey and Figgins are gone. If they move Rivera and get some money with Lowe they should have enough for Bay or Holliday.
December 15th, 20091:11 am
So are the Phils planning on starting Halladay every other game? Looks like they are going to be struggling with depth to their rotation again. It also appears that they are trading away a large portion of the future for someone who may pitch one night a week for the next few years. Maybe, as a braves fan, I am just being optimistic, but trading one ace and a few top prospects for another ace doesn’t necessarily make them that much better of a team.
December 15th, 20091:13 am
P’cola, I see your point re:Angels, but with the large offer that is sitting on the table to Holliday from the Cards and the substantial offer to Bay from the Mets what makes you think that the Angels will be able to land either even if they were to be significantly involved in the bidding?
Vlad made 15 mil, Lackey made 10 mil, and figgins made 6 mil.
December 15th, 20091:14 am
Big reason is that they offered Lee an extension and he declined it. He is going to want to test free agency and probably will make a lot of money. So they decided to go in a different direction.
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