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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
2,843 comments Add your comment
Nova Scotia Steve
December 8th, 2009
2:48 pm
LOL – Not jumping on that bangwagon anytime soon
bravito199
December 8th, 2009
2:48 pm
Jurrjens that segment was on the Mlb Network Hot Stove Show last night
NCmike
December 8th, 2009
2:50 pm
Does anyone know how old Mariano Rivera is?
O.J.
December 8th, 2009
2:50 pm
Cool, thanks for the info DOB. Thats what I was wondering if he got claimed would we still have to pay him since its a non guaranteed contract and all. But I got it now.
Thanks again.
NCmike
December 8th, 2009
2:50 pm
Hold on, let me check….
wilymo
December 8th, 2009
2:50 pm
bravito199,
If you’re going to use that trade as a benchmark, you’re going to be awfully disappointed. The M’s ended up receiving Gutierrez, Endy Chavez, Heilman, and a couple other prospects with Gutierrez being the centerpiece.
1) Even though he was battling injuries in 2008, Putz was viewed as a top flight closer because he was coming off two dominant seasons (2007, 2006).
2) The Mariners also included Luis Valbuena in the deal who wasn’t any slouch of a prospect
3) The Mariners were fortunate to have the Mets involved who were desperate to shore up their bullpen and had money to burn at the time.
4) The Mariners didn’t have nearly the urgency that the Braves have to deal Soriano. And other teams knew that.
wjones
December 8th, 2009
2:50 pm
Tom Waits wears Redwing boots
December 8th, 2009
2:01 pm
DOB-
“I don’t think Soriano gets close to 8 million in an Arb hearing. The guy was 1-6 with 4 blown saves. 1-6, count the loses and he was effective in 28 of the 38 games he pitched or 74% of the time.”
You might want to check your math here. You are only adding games in which he either got a win, loss, or save. He pitched about double that amount of games–games where he held the lead for Gonzo to save, games he didn’t qualify for the save but shut the other team down, etc.
If you wanted to be scientific, why don’t you go through his game logs, and count games he shut down the opposition vs. games in which he gave up runs?
TommyP
December 8th, 2009
2:51 pm
Justin: I beg to differ. The problem BEFORE was that the Braves needed to deal either Lowe or Vazquez to clear salary for that big bat or a couple of bats.
NOW the problem is we need to deal both a starter and Soriano to clear salary space for the bat(s).
Nova Scotia Steve
December 8th, 2009
2:52 pm
Saito does not have the cutter that Mariano Rivera has.
And I don’t think we can compare anyone to M. Rivera…at least the list isn’t long…that’s for sure…
And I hope we’re not compairing Saito (who’s 40) to Rivera…
Fischerking04
December 8th, 2009
2:52 pm
Thanks RC!
Kind of having trouble sifting through the people who actually have an idea of what can reasonably be expected and those who just throw out names and imaginary contract numbers.
NCmike
December 8th, 2009
2:52 pm
40
Tomas
December 8th, 2009
2:52 pm
Nova Scotia Steve, the reason is Wagner made it clear that he wanted to close, and the Red Sox have Papelbon, but he was great. He was throwing 95-97, with outstanding control. I remember the game he came back against the Braves, and he was better than before, he was dominant.
DAP
December 8th, 2009
2:52 pm
nova scotia I’m hearing from Red Sox fans that there are reasons the BoSox didn’t try to resign Wags.
yeah, lots of reasons. okajima, delcarmen, bard, papelbon to name a few. plus, wagner didnt really give them a chance. he made it clear he wanted to close and signed real quick.
Bobby's Cox
December 8th, 2009
2:53 pm
This article was interesting. I can picture DOB tweeting in line at the Starbucks.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Is-Twitter-helping-or-hurting-baseball-s-winter-;_ylt=AjLyHRd.2DXeXRsUHhZtb9IRvLYF?urn=mlb,207317
Jurrjens4NLCY
December 8th, 2009
2:53 pm
Freddie Gonzales is the Braves top choice for Bobby’s replacement?
Idiot on MLB.com/Live is purposing Red Sox sign both Holliday and Bay…
NCmike
December 8th, 2009
2:53 pm
Anyone know how old Trevor Hoffman is?
RHR
December 8th, 2009
2:54 pm
Jeff Francoeur = Ryan Church = NOTHING
Still an improvement!
RC
December 8th, 2009
2:54 pm
If nothing else, we know that Saito is a MAN…..he’s 40.
NCmike
December 8th, 2009
2:56 pm
As good? No, not a chance. My point is that relievers can be very effective even at older ages. Even at 40…
TommyP
December 8th, 2009
2:56 pm
I love these 3-team deals. Always fun sifting through to see who got the better end.
Ted
December 8th, 2009
2:58 pm
I’m in agreement with ppaddy here. In arbitration, both agents and teams use EVERYTHING they can. So, yes, I’m sure Soriano’s agent will point to Lidge, Fuentes et al. and argue that Soriano had better stats “as a closer” and should be paid accordingly. But the reality is that set-up men get paid less and the Braves will point to set-up guys with similar stats (sans saves) and their salary. That alone, however, may be a losing argument.
However, to ppaddy’s point, it is in Braves interest to point out numeorus statements that Wagner and Saito would close before Soriano – and this was BEFORE Soriano accepted arb. As such, he knew going in he’d be a set-up guy and still accepted arb. Will that argument swing the tide? No idea. But there is a definite difference in salary between closers and set-up guys – even among those with similar skills and it is in Braves’ best interest to throw everything out there that puts him in the “set-up” group and not the “closer” group.
Roy Hobbs
December 8th, 2009
2:58 pm
RC: Very nice @2:54!
bravito199
December 8th, 2009
2:59 pm
wilymo
Did you watch Franklin Gutierrez play this year the dude is a star in the making i would be happy if we got something comparable to him plus more useful pieces
P'cola Brave
December 8th, 2009
3:01 pm
I agree with Bravito on Gutierrez. If you haven’t seen his stats check out the year he had. The really got a special player in that deal.
Jurrjens4NLCY
December 8th, 2009
3:02 pm
Tony Petitti = Best name EVER!
TommyP
December 8th, 2009
3:02 pm
To echo DOB’s sentiments earlier….arbitration is about what you’ve accomplished in the past, not what hypothetical role you may play in the future.
Bobby's Cox
December 8th, 2009
3:03 pm
Ludwick probably wont be moved with ankiel and Holliday both probably leaving St. Louis
True, but losing out on Holiday would open up the St. Louis payroll. I agree with you that they’ll need Ludwick, but just playing devil’s advocate I guess.
wilymo
December 8th, 2009
3:03 pm
Bravito199,
That’s my point. Gutierrez is a stud, the Braves aren’t getting anything close to him in a deal for Soriano.
CB
December 8th, 2009
3:03 pm
TommyP,the Tigers will look great in the long run on that trade,got rid of salary and got three great prospects.
wilymo
December 8th, 2009
3:04 pm
My point was that JJ Putz had a lot more trade value at the time and were dealing with a desperate team making the return on Putz a lot greater than what it will be with Soriano.
O.J.
December 8th, 2009
3:04 pm
MLBTraderumors says Multiple teams in on Derek Lowe
vincent vega
December 8th, 2009
3:05 pm
Dave: what are you hearing about interest in LaRoche. Haven’t seen his name mentioned the last couple of days.
N8
December 8th, 2009
3:05 pm
“First time I’ve really disagreed with you. It hasn’t been that long when we marched out Campillo, Reyes, Morton, James, Parr to be mopped up by Bennett, Carslile, Desenes and any other 34 year old pitcher we could coax out of Mexico. Do you remember?” Tom Waits wears Redwing boots
I guess I should have been more clear. I mentioned “long-term” in the post, and that’s more what I’m getting at.
Moylan wasn’t Wren’s doing. Medlen wasn’t Wren’s doing. Hanson wasn’t Wren’s doing. Gonzo was one of Wren’s first moves.
He’s now gone. And pending on who signs him, we might get little to nothing for him. O’Flare was a nice pickup. Will he be a staple in our pen for years to come or a one year wonder like Will Ohman?
Kawakami has the chance to help the club for 3 years. I’m OK with that signing. But Lowe might be dumped after one year, and we might have to eat salary to make him go away. Vazquez may or may not be retained. I’ll resevre judgement until he’s extended or traded, and based on who he’s traded for, we’ll see if it’s a “long-term” fix.
Hudson, I guess was extended on his watch. But Hudson practically begged to be a Braves and judging from what Randy Wolf has been offered and what Lackey is asking for, Hudson gave us a STEAL, even if he only pitches half of the contract.
Like I said. He made some bold “quick fix” moves last winter, that almost worked. He should be commended for that. But why the hurry? Why the need to shell out all that money, when the young cheap studs are on the way? Two reasons. Chipper Jones and Bobby Cox.
Had Bobby retired last year, and Chipper not signed an extension, Wren would not be in such a hurry to sign short-term solutions at inflated prices.
As a fan, for now, I appreciate the effort to give us a good team to watch and hopefully make the playoffs. But as a fan who wants prolonged success? I think he’s gotten himself into a corner, and as my last post said, the upcoming weeks will show me what he’s made of.
The BEST thing about Frank Wren from what I’ve seen is that he is NOT willing to give up the cornerstones of the future for a quick expensive fix. So I thank him for that.
No sense giving up a ton for 2 years of Adrian Gonzalez, when as soon as this upcoming season we might begin the run of 6-7 years of Jason Heyward.
Patience and balance, Daniel-san.
Jurrjens4NLCY
December 8th, 2009
3:06 pm
OJ,
MLBTR doesn’t have a source though…
P'cola Brave
December 8th, 2009
3:07 pm
I’ve seen a lot more teams interested in Nick Johnson and Delgado then LaRoche. Maybe his market isn’t as big as he thought.
vincent vega
December 8th, 2009
3:07 pm
Am I reading this Yankees’ trade right? Did they get Granderson for basically nothing?
O.J.
December 8th, 2009
3:07 pm
Yeah, but they normally try not to post anything unless it has validity to it.
P'cola Brave
December 8th, 2009
3:07 pm
MLBTR is at the meetings.
wjones
December 8th, 2009
3:09 pm
Nova Scotia Steve
December 8th, 2009
2:52 pm
Saito does not have the cutter that Mariano Rivera has.
And I don’t think we can compare anyone to M. Rivera…at least the list isn’t long…that’s for sure…
And I hope we’re not compairing Saito (who’s 40) to Rivera…
_______________________________________________________________-
Isn’t Rivera also 40?
P'cola Brave
December 8th, 2009
3:09 pm
so far I think that blockbuster deal with the Dbacks, Yanks, an Tigers will be good for everyone as long as those prospects the tigers got develop.
Tom Waits wears Redwing boots
December 8th, 2009
3:09 pm
wjones-
I admitted previously to exaggerating. IMO, Soriano is 3 to 4.5 million/year relief pitcher based largely on 2007 and 2009. He got lucky with a backloaded contract and that is the reason he didn’t get the offers in this, his FA year. (It’s Obvious) But, if you think he is worth 8 million/year – we differ in our dollar utility.
Bay Area Steve
December 8th, 2009
3:10 pm
wilymo,
thank you for all your insight with regard to Sori the last year or so. I was skeptical at first; I think everyone on these interwebs is full of it (’cept me, of course). But, clearly, you are who you said you were. And tell Sori, if ya would, that true Braves fans believe in ‘im, that we understand it’s a business, and wherever he ends up, we wish him the best.
I, personally, wouldn’t mind seein’ dude throw 80 times for us this year. I was wary when the doctors couldn’t find the most recent elbow problem. But, once they did, and fixed it, dude’s been as durable as any. And, tell him to perfect that cutter. He can locate it well enough to be Mariano-light.
Bravoman
December 8th, 2009
3:11 pm
vincent vega,
Austin Jackson, ever heard of him?
P. W. Hjort
December 8th, 2009
3:12 pm
Jeff Francoeur = Ryan Church = NOTHING
By the transitive property of equalities, Jeff Francoeur = Nothing and Ryan Church = Nothing.
At least the organization has the cahones to release Church. The fact that they didn’t have the cahones to release Francoeur (Church is a better player than Francouer, so your equation is wrong, but even if he wasn’t) tells us something. And whatever it tells us, it isn’t good.
Jurrjens4NLCY
December 8th, 2009
3:13 pm
Austin Jackson, ever heard of him?
He was the centerpeice in the Halladay – Yanks talks….
Radio Cure
December 8th, 2009
3:14 pm
Peter Gammons just quit ESPN
RC
December 8th, 2009
3:14 pm
Not everyone is accepting arbitration: http://www.espnmediazone3.com/us/2009/12/gammons-ends-hall-of-fame-run-with-espn/
In seriousness, I hope him all the best, whether he chooses to continue writing in another forum or not.
CB
December 8th, 2009
3:14 pm
N8,I do not think we will have to eat any salary with the trading of Lowe, I think based on how free agent contracts are going so far I think there is an excellent chance we will be able to trade him and get a decent return. They could then approach Vazquez with an extension contract offer of maybe 4yrs- 44mil with more of it backloaded. Wren is pretty wise and has good people to advise him.
Tomas
December 8th, 2009
3:15 pm
What kind of players do you think Derek Lowe would bring in a trade? realistically speaking( obviously it wont be Ryan Braun, Prince Fielder, or Adrian Gonzalez)
Tom Waits wears Redwing boots
December 8th, 2009
3:17 pm
N8-
When one domino tumbles, it starts a cascade. In the case of the Braves, when Schuerholz depleted the farm for Texiera, Wren was left to pick up the pieces. As for Baltimore, Wren was told certain HOF players would play everyday and we will acquire certain aging questionable players to surround him.
Please don’t insinuate that Hanson was a sure thing.
RC
December 8th, 2009
3:18 pm
Jeff Francoeur = Ryan Church = NOTHING
By the transitive property of equalities, Jeff Francoeur = Nothing and Ryan Church = Nothing.
All of these equations are stupid, because you are completely discounting the years that the player WAS on the team. Based on that, here’s some more for you:
Hank Aaron = Nothing
Dale Murphy = Nothing
Greg Maddux = Nothing
Please, please quit trying to tie in equations to players, unless you are going to fully account for their service time with the team. It’s stupid and pointless otherwise.
sidslidkid
December 8th, 2009
3:18 pm
ESPN’s baseball coverage is going to take a hit without Gammons. MLB tv has to be a little happy to see Peter leave. What will the Sox nation do?
Justin
December 8th, 2009
3:19 pm
TommyP
December 8th, 2009
2:51 pm
Justin: I beg to differ. The problem BEFORE was that the Braves needed to deal either Lowe or Vazquez to clear salary for that big bat or a couple of bats.
NOW the problem is we need to deal both a starter and Soriano to clear salary space for the bat(s).
We needed to trade a starter because we have 6 of them now the money the braves had to sign a bat like some of the guys mentioned you know like Laroache is in Sorianos bank account either way the 8 mill or so was to be spent on a 1st basemen or outfielder whichever one the braves did not trade a starter for.
wjones
December 8th, 2009
3:20 pm
“wjones-
I admitted previously to exaggerating. IMO, Soriano is 3 to 4.5 million/year relief pitcher based largely on 2007 and 2009. He got lucky with a backloaded contract and that is the reason he didn’t get the offers in this, his FA year. (It’s Obvious) But, if you think he is worth 8 million/year – we differ in our dollar utility.”
Sorry–I missed the part where you said you were exaggerating. Do I think MFIKY is worth $8 million? I don’t know–I guess if someone gives him that they will think he is worth it. You are worth what the market will pay you. When you talk about minimum salary being $400,000, are the guys being paid that to sit on the bench worth that? Who knows?
One thing about Soriano, though. I’m thinking when he is tired, after pitching day after day, his fastball loses a little steam, and the batters catch up with it and drill it over the fence. The fresh Soriano doesn’t give up ANYTHING. A combination of better management of him by the manager/pitching coach and better self-awareness by Soriano himself would make him one of the better relief pitchers in the game, virtually unstoppable. Whether that happens or not is anyone’s guess.
Tomas
December 8th, 2009
3:22 pm
Gammons to mlbnetwork?
N8
December 8th, 2009
3:22 pm
“Maybe not as quickly as you’d like, but I remember 2008 like it was yesterday – a nightmare.” Tom Waits wears Redwing boots
You’ve got it backwards. Frank is trying to make things happen too quick, to an extent. He was SOOOOOO desperate for pitching last year, that he way overpaid Lowe.
Now, hear (read) me out. This all still has a chance to work out just fine and to our advantage.
My worst fear is that it’s the Kevin Millwood trade all over again. Meaning teams KNOW Wren has to make a move, and thus hold out.
Best case scenario, is that there is such a limit this off-season on good pitching available, that teams that miss out on the top guys (Lackey, Halladay, Gonzo, etc…) jump and outbid eachother for Lowe and Soriano.
THEN, Wren could extend Vazquez.
That’s why I said Wren will show us what he’s made of in the next couple of weeks (maybe longer on Soriano). But if he ends up giving them away, or being forced to deal Vazquez instead of Lowe, because we now can’t afford to sign a bat…. that would be failure imo.
If he’s able to sign the guys he set out to sign, all while extending Vazquez (or getting a really good/young player in return that we can control and use) AND getting anything decent in return for Soriano and Lowe (without eating a ton of Lowe’s contract), and then down the road we do alright with the draft picks from Gonzo leaving?
He’ll have done a fantastic job.
I have a feeling, he had trades/moves in place the second that Soriano declined arbitration. I just hope what Wren’s publicly stated (that they’re going to build their team like they planned), is the truth, and he doesn’t miss out on somebody he was after because of this Soriano nonsense.
Bobby's Cox
December 8th, 2009
3:22 pm
DOB,
Do you believe an arb panelist will weigh Soriano’s back-loaded contract against him? 2 years, $9 mil is an average of $4.5 a year. The 1st year of his salary ($2.5 mil) was determined based on what he would get through arb correct? So if he were to get an arb award based of of $2.5 for 2 consecutive years, or even off of $4.5 which was his value at the time of the last contract, then I’m not sure I see a justification of $8 mil.
I guess my question is: Do they strictly go off of the salary from the previous year?
wilymo
December 8th, 2009
3:23 pm
Bay Area Steve,
Thanks man appreciate it.
One other aside, take everything you read with a grain of salt. One thing that’s been real apparent to me, and I think we all kind of know it to some degree, is that a lot of writers out there are basically manipulated by both the agents and teams to put out there what they want out there. Serves everyone’s interest. Writers get a scoop, and teams and agents get the info they want out there. And this isn’t a knock on DOB because I actually think he’s one of the writers that writes what he wants to write. He’s one of the best.
Knox MC
December 8th, 2009
3:23 pm
I guess if Hawkins signs with Houston, that kills those Lowe and Soriano for Carlos Lee dreams.
sidslidkid
December 8th, 2009
3:24 pm
“Gammons to mlbnetwork?” – Tomas
I’m 99% certain he’s going to retire.
Jurrjens4NLCY
December 8th, 2009
3:26 pm
Vasquez for Gamel?
Justin
December 8th, 2009
3:27 pm
Knox MC
December 8th, 2009
3:23 pm
I guess if Hawkins signs with Houston, that kills those Lowe and Soriano for Carlos Lee dreams.
Maybe not they could use both and Im sure they could use Lowe.
civilized white trash
December 8th, 2009
3:29 pm
rc your 2:54 still has me rolling holy crap thats funny
Alonso
December 8th, 2009
3:29 pm
Yanks just traded away some of their bullpen for Granderson. Wonder if they need a reliever?
N8
December 8th, 2009
3:30 pm
“Please don’t insinuate that Hanson was a sure thing.
For starters. I wasn’t insinuating nothing of the sort. Just stating that Wren didn’t draft Hanson. Period. End of point. Calling him up was a no-brainer. In fact, one could make a semi-strong argument that the 2009 team makes the playoffs had Wren and Bobby chose to have him start the year in the rotation. But since I’ve praised him for not giving up our prospects, that would be a tad hypocritical of me to not thank him for basically giving us one more year of Hanson down the road, right?
abwright
December 8th, 2009
3:30 pm
Tom Waits wears Redwing boots, December 8th, 2009, 3:09 pm … “But, if you think he is worth 8 million/year – we differ in our dollar utility.”
My (very limited) understanding of the arbitration hearing process would say that, more or less, the player gets awarded a salary that is comparable to the salaries of similar players.
If Soriano is awarded $8M in arbitration, that would be “market value.” Maybe market value for a closer rather than a setup guy; however, if Soriano is a closer and he has a market value contract, why wouldn’t he be tradeable to a team that needs a closer.
I think many on this blog either believe that Soriano is not really a closer or that $8M is too expensive for a closer.
Tom Waits wears Redwing boots
December 8th, 2009
3:33 pm
N8-
Two points I disagree with you about: “Teams KNOW Wren has to make a move”. Really, has John Malone told teams what The Braves 2010 payroll will be and not let his GM know.
“He was SOOOOOOO desperate for pitching he overpaid Lowe”.
Again really, while Randy Wolf contemplates, contemplates (AI) a 3 year 30 million contract and Brad Penny agrees to a 9 million/year contract if he pitches 204 innings. These 2 aren’t even in Lowe’s league and the money being thrown at them on the 2nd day. Just wait till you see the ridiculous sum offered to Jason Marquis or the already ridiculous sum offered to Lackey 4 years @ 18 million per.
SoWeGa Fanatic
December 8th, 2009
3:33 pm
Even Soriano doesn’t believe Soriano is a closer. I don’t think he wants to be.
abwright
December 8th, 2009
3:33 pm
P. W. Hjort, December 8th, 2009, 3:12 pm … “Church is a better player than Francouer, so your equation is wrong,”
I was using fuzzy logic.
RC
December 8th, 2009
3:34 pm
abwright,
The reason a salary comparable to similar players would be a problem is that the market has changed a ton since those contracts were signed. For Soriano, “comparable players” included Kerry Wood and Brad Lidge, who signed contracts prior to the 2008 offseason when salaries went down a ton.
semiballcoach
December 8th, 2009
3:36 pm
the problem with soriano pitching the 7th inning is his awfulness in non-save situations last year
wilymo
December 8th, 2009
3:37 pm
Keep in mind that anytime a contract is signed to buy out both arbitration years and free agent years, its not really a true backloaded contract. A true backloaded contract would be a deal where a guy is a free agent and signs a deal to help save money for the team in the short term. Raffy’s deal was backloaded because his 2nd year was his first free agent year and thus was worth a lot more.
Bravoman
December 8th, 2009
3:38 pm
Vazquez for Gammel, sign Cameron, trade Soriano and Kelly
C'mon Son!
December 8th, 2009
3:39 pm
I think this is a good thing. I’m tired of the Braves trotting out the likes of Manny Acosta. We have the best starting pitching in the league and a bullpen capable of not blowing the lead late in games. We don’t have to pitch Moylan’s arm out of his freakin socket. I say keep Soriano and you only have to ask your starting pitching to go six to seven innings. I think you still can swing a deal for another bat, especially if you can get Lowe’s contract outta here for it. I think it’s time to see what some of this farm grown talent can do. I still believe in Schafer, the guy was unbelievable in spring training and knows what failing feels like. Give him a shot to win the job in left or move Mclouth to left and put Schafer in center. If we have to I would sign Church back to the team. He is not that bad of a player and I certainly think he is better than last year.
Greg Olson Homers
December 8th, 2009
3:41 pm
RC: If nothing else, we know that Saito is a MAN…..he’s 40.
HAHAHA, well played.
NC Braves Fan
December 8th, 2009
3:41 pm
Something to remember on Soriano: we acquired him for Horacio Ramirez, so anything we get back in return is gravy. Plus we got a couple of really decent years out of MFIKY.
Jurrjens4NLCY
December 8th, 2009
3:42 pm
Vazquez for Gammel
Braves could command much more than Gamel when trading Vasquez…
How about Derek Lowe (Braves eat 15 million) for Matt Gamel who plays 1st?
Bobby's Cox
December 8th, 2009
3:42 pm
N8,
One thing you did not give Wren credit for in your 1st essay, was his ability to make tough decisions, i.e. not bringing back Smoltz, and cutting Glavine for the Hanson/Medlen call-ups. The “exit-strategy” on Francouer was also a very good decision.
Also, McLouth was not a quick fix. In fact, Wren said in his press conference that one of the reasons he liked McLouth was because he was under team control for a few more seasons. He also got the team acquainted with the Japanese market, working on relations by drafting young Asian prospects well before he signed Kawakami.
He was also to able to get a player in exchange for Josh Anderson, who was going to be released, and who was later released by Detroit, the team he traded him to.
I have been more than satisfied with Wren. He’s a stout business man and negotiator, willing to take chances, and seems really convincing to teams. The only thing I knock him for was trading Devine for Kotsay. I will never let that one go, but when Devine got hurt last season that helped me get over it quite a bit.
Tom Waits wears Redwing boots
December 8th, 2009
3:43 pm
wilymo-
Disagree, it was an aggregate for the 2 years. The Braves didn’t project him as a closer for 2009 based on a 2007 season where he was 3-3 with a 3.00 ERA and 9 saves in 12 attempts.
Knox MC
December 8th, 2009
3:43 pm
Would it be so bad to give LaRoche a two year deal? Freeman is only 20yo and could benefit from extra time in AAA. Then, if we want, we could trade Laroche at the 2010 deadline to someone looking for his hot 2nd half bat and net something pretty good. Bring up Freeman and we have an extra year of club control.
We could then concentrate on unloading Lowe and Soriano and acquiring a LF bat.
wilymo
December 8th, 2009
3:43 pm
Ken Rosenthal just reported what I think made Soriano’s representatives accept the arbitration offer:
Free-agent closer Jose Valverde declined salary arbitration from the Astros.
He might have made a mistake.
The market for Valverde appears to be extremely limited — and, as a Type A free agent, he will cost any rival team that signs him a high draft pick, further depressing demand.
The Astros do not want to meet Valverde’s price. None of the four teams with the biggest need for a closer — the Rays, Orioles, Tigers and Nationals — will want to pay Valverde big money and forfeit a draft pick.
Any of those clubs could sign Fernando Rodney without losing a draft pick. Mike Gonzalez — the most attractive late-inning left-hander on the market — is drawing interest from both the Yankees and Red Sox.
A number of other closers — including the Padres’ Heath Bell, Reds’ Francisco Cordero and Pirates’ Matt Capps — are available in trades. Ken Rosenthal
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/10491164
Jim Hertel
December 8th, 2009
3:44 pm
DOB
Is there any Bar-B-Que in Indy? Just wondering?
Knox MC
December 8th, 2009
3:44 pm
2011 deadline*
Bravoman
December 8th, 2009
3:44 pm
Jurrjens4NLCYm
15 mil? as in 5/per. Ok I’m good with that. Wolf has to sign elsewhere first
Tomas
December 8th, 2009
3:45 pm
semiballcoach, remember Soriano wasn’t the closer at the beginning. He became the closer in July, and until June he had a 1.23 ERA in 7 sv opp in 35 games……
bravito199
December 8th, 2009
3:45 pm
i think the most the braves eat on Lowe’s contract is 9 million
Tom Waits wears Redwing boots
December 8th, 2009
3:45 pm
Bobby’s Cox-
You are correct. N8 says his decisions have been seat of the pants and this couldn’t be further from reality.
bravito199
December 8th, 2009
3:45 pm
Lowe is still a 15 game winner and still has value
abwright
December 8th, 2009
3:48 pm
RC, December 8th, 2009, 3:34 pm … “For Soriano, “comparable players” included Kerry Wood and Brad Lidge, who signed contracts prior to the 2008 offseason when salaries went down a ton.”
Wouldn’t K-Rod, Hoffman, Wagner, and Gonzo (when he signs) also be “comparable players?”
Based on your logic (which may be valid), no team should be offering arbitration for the next few years until the “new market” has a chance to be established.
Jurrjens4NLCY
December 8th, 2009
3:48 pm
15 mil? as in 5/per. Ok I’m good with that. Wolf has to sign elsewhere first
Yes and Yes
N8
December 8th, 2009
3:49 pm
“Tom Waits wears Redwing boots, it’s all relative man.
If the Yankees sign Randy Wolf to a 4 year 100 million dollar contract, that is less frivelous for them, than Wren giving Lowe 4 years at 60 million.
If adding Lowe was “THE” missing link to a WS chance, then yeah. If the budget allows, go for it. Make the run. But Lowe WASN’T the missing link.
I hear where you’re coming from and we’re actually not that far off in principle thought.
My gut tells me Lowe will be moved, probably soon, and probably fairly easily with a decent return. But there is a small side of me that thinks we’re over-valuing his value to OTHER teams at 15 million.
After all, a week ago, to think that somebody wasn’t willing to give Soriano a long enough contract for the amount of money he wanted? I wouldn’t have guessed it in a million years, (neither would have Wren). So forgive me if I’m a little gunshy in assuming who is really interested in not only paying that for Lowe but giving up anything in return.
abwright
December 8th, 2009
3:49 pm
If Gonzo signs with the Saux, will the Braves get their draft pick back?
P. W. Hjort
December 8th, 2009
3:50 pm
All of these equations are stupid, because you are completely discounting the years that the player WAS on the team. Based on that, here’s some more for you:
Hank Aaron = Nothing
Dale Murphy = Nothing
Greg Maddux = Nothing
Please, please quit trying to tie in equations to players, unless you are going to fully account for their service time with the team. It’s stupid and pointless otherwise.
I’m having a hard time understanding what you’re trying to say.
WHAT?
wilymo
December 8th, 2009
3:50 pm
Tom Waits,
Whether the Braves were paying him to be a closer or not, the value of giving up a free agent year is worth a lot more than an arbitration year. Felix Hernandez will be a perfect example. He’s got two more arbitration years before he hits free agency. If the Mariners sign him to say a 6 year / $100 million deal you’ll have to look at it like: $10 mil/$15 mil, then four years at $75 mil to buy out the free agency years. Now if those four years at $75 mil were backloaded then you could make a case to average those out. Does that make sense?
If the Braves want to go in to arbitration and file a number at say $5 mil with the arguments that he’s coming off a $4.5 AAV salary and he’s going to be a 6th/7th inning guy then Peter Greenberg should file at $10 mil and not answer the phone when the Braves call. Because while the panel may think Greenberg’s number is high, they have to choose one number or the other and they’re def not going to give a guy a huge paycut with the numbers Soriano will bring to the table.
Bobby's Cox
December 8th, 2009
3:51 pm
And I don’t believe we have to trade Soriano now either, so that argument that teams think we have to trade him, I don’t buy it. When we trade Lowe, Soriano becomes affordable and we could still afford Mike Cameron & LaRoche, then trade Soriano later in ST after his arb hearings & other managers further evaluate their teams & needs. We could trade him now, but if not we can get more for him later. Wren is probably PO’ed because he probably has better options for us than Cameron & LaRoche. There’s a lot of ways Wren can go about this.
Tom Waits wears Redwing boots
December 8th, 2009
3:51 pm
bravito199-
The Braves have never eaten a contract and will not eat this one. Again, everyone will come to realize that Lowe is not overpaid. He induced the 2nd most groundballs in the NL last year. Given the size of the new parks, this speaks loudly to his ability to keep the ball on the ground.
Macon Braves (RIP)
December 8th, 2009
3:51 pm
My (very limited) understanding of the arbitration hearing process would say that, more or less, the player gets awarded a salary that is comparable to the salaries of similar players.
Not how it works. The team will put forth one number (let’s say $6.5 million for the sake of this discussion) and Soriano and his agent will put forth another number ($8 million for this discussion). The arb panel then decides between the two numbers. Their is no negotiation in the arb hearing, it’s either one number or the other. That’s why you see, in many cases, that team and player will come to an agreement just before the hearing date to avoid the arb hearing.
Macon Braves (RIP)
December 8th, 2009
3:52 pm
Having said that, I’m almost certain that’s how it used to work. If it has been changed in the last few years, someone who knows please correct me (like I really need to ask to be corrected here..LOL )
David O'Brien
December 8th, 2009
3:53 pm
The Braves don’t intend to or think they will have to eat much of Lowe’s salary to trade him….
Braves might get a little something back in a trade for Kelly, but I’d be surprised if they get anything of value back for Church…..
NCmike
December 8th, 2009
3:54 pm
Thanks RC. Here is the link. Saito responds through his translator….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3COB5g4RyYY