Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
2,843 comments Add your comment
Marc in FL
December 8th, 2009
8:23 am
Guys, he’s worth the money. I could see being upset if we were blowing money out the window, but Soriano is worth the bills.
richbrave
December 8th, 2009
8:28 am
So do KAWAKAMI, SORIANO, and JOHNSON go to the NATS for WILLINGHAM?
Tommy T
December 8th, 2009
8:29 am
ignoramus:
Soriano is vastly overpriced as a seventh inning relief pitcher. As a fifth starter, Kawakami’s pay is closer to slot in a deep rotation. If a starter is not moved, I agree with your point; however, I think there is only a slight chance of all six SP’s beginning the year in the ATL.
submariner
December 8th, 2009
8:32 am
Who’s gonna want to trade for Soriano at 7 million? The reason he didn’t get any offers was because he costs to much and nobody wanted to go multi year because he’s not a household name. I think that this one blew up in their face. Don’t get me wrong, I like the thoughts of him in the bullpen, but you have to get to the pen with the lead before you can win it and without a solid bat or two, there’s going to be a lot of 1 run games, and we all know what happens to ATL in 1 run games! Wren played chicken and lost.
David O'Brien
December 8th, 2009
8:32 am
Bottom line: Any way you slice it, just not a good night for the Braves. Downplay it, dismiss it, whatever. Just not a good situation with Soriano. Maybe it turns out OK or — somehow — even good for them. But right now, I don’t see it.
Because teams know Braves need to move him to make payroll, and there’s no rush for teams to make good offers for him, particularly not until Soriano and the Braves work out a deal and he has a salary. Right now, teams aren’t sure if he’ll get $6.5 mill or $8 mill or whatever. My guess is closer to the latter, and the Braves aren’t really in position, I don’t think, to wait and go all the way through the arb process and let a panel decide the salary in February during spring training. Seems they’d want to get that settled early, come to an agreement with Soriano soon as they can.
Of course, his rep probably doesn’t feel any real need to settle on anything less than the max salary that he believes arb panel would award him. So if he thinks he could ask for $8 mill at an arb hearing, well, he might demand no less, or not much less, than that now to settle before it goes to a hearing.
And like I said, it would sure seem the Braves would want to get a salary established for him before they start attempts to trade him.
This is not a situation they wanted to deal with, no doubt about that.
David O'Brien
December 8th, 2009
8:35 am
Marc in FL: He’s not worth the bills to the Braves, who have payroll limits, offensive needs, and already have a closer and a couple of setup options in Saito and Moylan. $7 mill or $8 mill is way too much to pay a non-closer when you have a future Hall of Famer closing. Unless Wagner gets hurt and misses significant time, it’s waaay too much for an insurance policy. Gotta trade him, and Braves have already said as much and said they will.
sidslidkid
December 8th, 2009
8:37 am
I’ll be darned… you can have too much pitching.
David O'Brien
December 8th, 2009
8:42 am
Of course, the problem can be resolved with one decision: Management/ownership agree to enter the season about $5 mill over their originally planned payroll. Given the extenuating circumstances, that would not seem to be an unreasonable suggestion. Actually, it seems a prudent one. Because you’re too close to being a playoff team to pull back and not fill offensive needs simply because of a miscalculation of the Soriano market. No need to compound one situation (the Soriano problem) by not filling an offensive need just to keep a payroll at a self-determined limit on opening day.
Just raise the payroll amount for a month or two, until you can trade Soriano in a good deal. And if you have a major bullpen injury in the interim, well, you’re surely covered better than any other team in baseball would be.
sidslidkid
December 8th, 2009
8:44 am
“Of course, the problem can be resolved with one decision: Management/ownership agree to enter the season about $5 mill over their originally planned payroll” – DOB
Yeah, but $5 million is a lot of money. I don’t care how much money Liberty has, it’s still a tough pill to swallow.
tvsportscaster
December 8th, 2009
8:48 am
Look bottom line is, the Braves can spin it anyway they want, they do not want Soriano back and are not very happy he accepted arbitration. That being said, they have no one to blame but themselves, because they never should have given him that option by offering abritration in the first place. Getting greedy and wanting draft picks for Soriano has now come back to bite them in the butt.
Ron H
December 8th, 2009
8:49 am
“If we want to trade Soriano at mid season, we will get a lot in return. We can bring up Proctor, Kimbrel and Hyde as relievers. Relax Braves Fans! It will be nice to have a dominant bullpen. Cox still overused our bullpen last year. This year, we will have Wagner, Soriano, Saito, Moylan, EOF, and Medlen. Wow!”
I agree with this assessment, but don’t think we’re going to go into the season with Soriano. I would really like to see us trade him (along with a prospect or two) for a bat with some pop, then trade Lowe for another bat with some pop. That effectively gives us offense, and puts our payroll where it needs to be.
Go Braves!
Timbo
December 8th, 2009
8:49 am
The Braves ownership sucks. Here they are spending $530 million on a dying satellite radio company; but they can only spend relative chump change on the Braves. $8 million on a quality reliever should not cripple a team that wants to be a contender for the World Series; instead it should be a must. And the Braves will not win anything with the 3rd highest payroll in their own division . . .
Anders
December 8th, 2009
8:50 am
Well, well, well. Where are all the naysayers who told me I was wrong a couple of days ago when I said the smart move for Soriano was to accept arbitration? He’s not viewed as a closer imo but was rated as one. At least his agent was smart enough to recognize that. Now, Mr. Wren has his work cut out for him. All the buzzards know he absolutely must move some of that pitching payroll. And to add a bat before that would weaken his leverage even more. The wild card in all this will be Soriano. How willing is he to accept a trade before 6/15/10? What limitations will he set? He’s certainly been difficult to get a read on up to this point in his career so I’m not sure we’ll know until after the fact.
Assuming he’s ammenable, the Yanks would be interested but they won’t give up a lot. If Soriano’s own agent felt he wasn’t worth the two picks he would have cost for a multi-year deal how much will teams want to give them for a one year deal?
Hey, not the worst problem to have – trust me, I know. {:
Roy Hobbs
December 8th, 2009
8:51 am
In the event Soriano cannot be moved in a trade, have FW’s comments made it a difficult/impossible environment for Soriano to play in — i.e. he knows he was not wanted and created a payroll conundrum for the team — or does that kind of management talk not filter its way into the clubhouse? I know Bobby will say the right things and stand behind the player no matter what the situation. By the way — thanks for all the day 1 coverage; great work as always.
sidslidkid
December 8th, 2009
8:52 am
Timbo, the Braves payroll is not “chump change”. Not even compared to the Yanks, Dodgers or BoSox.
SilverKey
December 8th, 2009
8:53 am
It remeinds me of the Julius Peppers situation in Charlotte during football’s offseason. I just don’t think it will turn out the same way. The Panthers ended up giving a full tenth of their total salary cap money to him and it has ruined their season (along with other things). The front office there just wanted something in return for him, and got a vastly overpayed DE.
Its not as bad as that with Soriano. Even if we get less for him than he’s worth via trade – at least we get something! And there is no way somebody won’t reade something for him – whether its a prospect or two, or maybe a bidding war starts and we get something decent. I think you can still move along with the expectation that he will be traded.
JReeves
December 8th, 2009
8:53 am
DOB, Couldn’t agree more about your 8:42 comment, that would be an ideal situation. Also, with it being Bobby’s last year, may give them slightly more leverage to go to Liberty management with.
I do have a serious question though, how are contractual salaries paid to the player??? Are they paid from the first day of spring training??? From the first day of the calendar year??? Question is real important, because it could give the Braves the ability to go about their off-season plans as if Soriano did not exist. Then when a payroll figure was locked in, they would have the ability to trade him, before the payment on the 2010 salary kicked in…..therefore not costing Atlanta anything more than a headache. Any clarity on this???
Anders
December 8th, 2009
8:55 am
Just raise the payroll amount for a month or two, until you can trade Soriano in a good deal. And if you have a major bullpen injury in the interim, well, you’re surely covered better than any other team in baseball would be. (DOB)
I believe this philosophy is the core of the Yankees organizational mission statement. In other words, “Just throw it on the pile, who knows we might need it.”
Voice from the past...
December 8th, 2009
8:58 am
Mr. O’B,
Yesterday you said that Wren said that the payroll thing wouldn’t be a short-term detriment, when I asked him if the Braves would have to account for the $7-8 mill salary Soriano might get, whether they’d have to move someone else or not sign someone else until they got rid of Soriano,etc. They have flexibility to operate with payroll above targeted amount short-term, in other words.
If this is true, if they can deal with it until July, they’ll have a heckuva trade piece to use at the deadline.
Can they hang until then, if necessary?
Timbo
December 8th, 2009
9:00 am
sidslidkid, it is nice that you want to polish the turd. But you’re wrong . . .
First, I was saying that the Braves payroll is chump change compared to the $530 million they are spending on a dying satellite radio company.
Second, what is the Braves payroll compared to the teams you mentioned?
CB
December 8th, 2009
9:00 am
I still don’t see it as a catastrophe- of course the Braves would have preferred Soriano declined,but if they had not offered they would have received nothing. IMO,they will come out ahead of not offering.
Anders
December 8th, 2009
9:03 am
voice from the past- Wren saying the payroll situation is a short term detriment is as much for Soriano’s and his agents ears as anything. The message is, “Work with us now and you will have some say in your landing spot. If not we can afford to wait to send you to purgatory later on.”
No way the Braves want Soriano on the roster to open the season. The posturing has begun.
Macon Braves (RIP)
December 8th, 2009
9:03 am
Not to say it’s “global warming” or whatever. Just saying. Heard some things that the reason why it’s so cold is because the ice caps are melting at such an alarming rate that it’s putting ice molecules into the air. –Bobby’s Cox
Timbo
December 8th, 2009
9:03 am
They need to keep one of them anyway, since we’ll be scrambling by midseason to replace the broken down Billy Wagner. Having Soriano would be a good insurance policy.
Anders
December 8th, 2009
9:04 am
CB- They don’t want/need Soriano and now they have him and can’t move him without his consent before 7/15. That’s the catastrophe.
SilverKey
December 8th, 2009
9:06 am
What makes anyone think he won’t give consent to a trade?
NC Braves Fan
December 8th, 2009
9:07 am
Catastrophe? Anders, your hyperbole is showing.
CB
December 8th, 2009
9:07 am
Anders,no the date is 6/15 and they will gain something for him over nothing if they had declined arb,it is not a disaster? You need to be worrying about your own catastrophic situations.
Bat Masterson
December 8th, 2009
9:11 am
Timbo, you’re an idiot. Liberty has made out like a bandit on the Sirius/ XM deal. If they put the money they are making off that deal into the Braves, well hell, the Braves would be the Yankees, Redsox, and Mets rolled into one.
glord1
December 8th, 2009
9:13 am
Here is the biggest problem for the Braves. They do not want Soriano and everyone knows it. He has a great arm and can be dominant but there is a reason that they don’t want him. They don’t trust him is the reason.
Here is Wrens situation. He has a poor relationship with a player who is not happy with the Braves offering him arbitration. He knows it hurt his marketability. Unfortunately the player holds all the cards. As DOB stated the player can tie up close to 8 mil until June with a no trade option. Wren can not move him or even give a salary number to another team without the players assistance. Not good. Wren needs that money now. Possibly this week. The player and agent have no reason to be in a hurry now. See the problem?
Here is the worst part. If you think the Braves are going to cut Soriano at the end of ST watch how quickly Soriano comes up injured. Did I mention the Braves don’t want him because they don’t trust him. They believe he has done the injury routine before.
How close am I on this DOB?
Mikeyc588
December 8th, 2009
9:14 am
DOB,
Didn’t Wren already intimate that they would have some payroll flexibility up/until June 15 when they can trade Soriano without his approval? Seems like him saying “we won’t be hindered in setting up our ballclub” is another way of saying “ownership will allow up some flexibility with this situation until we can resolve it, with the ultimate goal of getting us over the hump and making this into a championship club.”
sidslidkid
December 8th, 2009
9:16 am
“If you think the Braves are going to cut Soriano at the end of ST watch how quickly Soriano comes up injured. Did I mention the Braves don’t want him because they don’t trust him. They believe he has done the injury routine before..” – glord1
…I don’t even know what to say to this little conspiracy theory. Wow.
rtrafford
December 8th, 2009
9:16 am
There is no “catastrophe” as Soriano will want a trade while the Braves can also afford to keep him.
GboroBravo
December 8th, 2009
9:17 am
Having Soriano could turn out to be a good thing…..if a team gets burned and doesn’t have a good bullpen they could be the one that is desperate to trade for Soriano. With that being said I don’t know what the Braves could get for him, I’m sure the draft picks would have been better.
Efrim
December 8th, 2009
9:17 am
I would of offered arbitration if I were Wren too. I expected Soriano to get a multi year offer, and it makes me wonder that teams were scared off because of his injury history. Maybe they saw something in his medical records? I agree with DOB, @ 8:42. It’s not a good situation for the Braves. They aren’t going to get much in a trade for him. It’s going to be a salary dump.
Timbo
December 8th, 2009
9:18 am
Bat Masterson, since I’m the idiot (what is the need for personal attacks, by the way?); why don’t they put the money into the Braves?
Sirius XM is still losing money, even if they are losing less than they were before . . .
David O'Brien
December 8th, 2009
9:23 am
I believe this philosophy is the core of the Yankees organizational mission statement. In other words, “Just throw it on the pile, who knows we might need it.”– Anders
You must be talking about a different Yankees organization than most of us know. Because those Yankees would simply shrug the shoulders, say, “Oh, well. We thought he’d decline the offer,” and then they’d move on. No worries about being over budget and trying to trade Soriano. They’d just keep him in the bullpen unless someone came to them with an offer they really liked.
Efrim
December 8th, 2009
9:25 am
Now Wren is tasked with moving Soriano(7-8 million) and Lowe(15 million). That’s just not going to be easy, at all.
TennesseePaul
December 8th, 2009
9:25 am
Efrim: Agreed, though I don’t know that teams were “scared off.” I have a feeling Soriano and his agent (or perhaps mainly his agent whispering in Soriano’s ear) were expecting K-Rod money and when it didn’t line up that way they opted for a one year deal close to the annual price they were seeking.
Payroll wise, this isn’t the best result. But I don’t think it will hinder the team. I trust Wren in that this isn’t going to trim the wings of any “lofty targets” for the “big bat.” I think the team can still squeeze in that budget priced bat they were seeking, or at least rumored to be seeking. Or has the Marlon Byrd/Jermaine Dye to Firstbase market sky rocketed to $10 million a year each?
Even with the dreams of Adrian, the price for first base is friendly to the team. Friendly enough to be able to scrap by.
But, they now have a closer and a starter to deal. If it is not good for them on the trade market for other teams to know they need to trade Soriano, then it doesn’t help in the least that other teams know they want to trade Lowe, or Vazquez… Personally I don’t buy this line of logic. The team may desire to trade these guys, and the whole league may know it, but that doesn’t mean they are going to be forced to take bats and balls in return.
AdirondackDave
December 8th, 2009
9:26 am
DOB — Your 8:42 analysis easily makes the most sense to me. Turn a sows ear into a silk purse. The Yanks or somebody are eventually going to want and need Soriano big-time and until that time this is the most envied starter-bullpen combo in baseball. I think the Braves are going to have plenty of suitors for a starter and a reliever. Just a matter a letting things sort out a bit. I’ve also had the feeling for a couple years that payroll is somewhat, but only somewhat, more flexible under Liberty than Time Warner, do you get that sense?
Macon Braves (RIP)
December 8th, 2009
9:31 am
The Mutts must already be set and ready for their World Series run(LOL) since Anders is on here acting like he told everyone so. Either that or he’s just being his usual Trollish self…I lean towards the latter myself.
NC Braves Fan
December 8th, 2009
9:32 am
AdirondackDave: added to that, there’s at least some pressure on Soriano as well. He wants to close and he has the stuff to close – but he won’t be closing. That works in the Braves’ favor, if only modestly.
There’s a situation out there for him, it’s just a matter of timing and making the numbers work for all parties.
cs95
December 8th, 2009
9:33 am
hey DOB, I agree with your comment at 8:42, but I thought you had mentioned yesterday that wren would have the extra flexibility to absorb soriano’s contract and still fill the offensive needs. Assuming that at some point he will be traded. I wonder if there would be an takers for a lowe-soriano package?
thanks for keeping us up to date!
Bat Masterson
December 8th, 2009
9:37 am
It’s simple Timbo, you make it out to be a bad deal for Liberty. Liberty has been paid back their investment with interest, and their stake in Sirius/ XM is worth what, about 1.5 billion today. Your post implies Liberty made a bad deal, well the verdict is in, no matter what happens from here on in, it was a good deal for Liberty.
Siri broke even in the 3rd quarter and should post a profit in the 4th. Liberty is in the business of making money, and they bought the Braves for a tax deal. Maybe they will decide winning the World Series makes the Braves more attractive to a buyer in the future, and will sink more money into the franchise, but I would not hold my breath.
Your are right though, I should not have called you an idiot, I apologize. I should have said, your post was idiotic and uniformed.
Marc in FL
December 8th, 2009
9:37 am
I totally get budgets and efficient use of funds, as a business man I respect that, but as baseball fan…
My God man, think of that pitching staff, just give it an honest evaluation for a minute… My God.
Bravoman
December 8th, 2009
9:38 am
DOB,
Your suggestion about allowing more short term financial flexibility to mold our club, isn’t that basically what Wren said yesterday when he was referring to this situation? He said they would go about their business as they intended with the offense but this Soriano thing just makes his offseason tougher because that have to find a trade partner, but it’s just a burden because they could be focused on other things. I still guess in the coming days they’ll try and deal Lowe and Kelly and go from there.
GboroBravo
December 8th, 2009
9:40 am
TUESDAY, 8:37am: ESPN’s Jayson Stark tweets that the Brewers offered Wolf more than Tim Hudson’s three-year, $28MM deal, but a half-dozen other teams remain in the mix.
Must be desperate
JasonInFL
December 8th, 2009
9:42 am
Maybe Liberty will do just that DOB…maybe there will be some nostalgia considering the fact that it is BC’s last year…
glord1
December 8th, 2009
9:42 am
Sidslidkid- here is my conspiracy theory spelled out. There are people in the Braves organization that feel Soriano tanked 2008 and was not all that injured. There are people in the organization that feel he is not easy to deal with. There are people all over baseball that believe he only steps up in a contract year.
Do you think it is a coincidence that a guy that was pretty dominant, striking out 102 in 75 inn, had not strong multi year offers?
Home of the Braves
December 8th, 2009
9:43 am
Call me an optimist, but I really don’t think this arb situation is as bad as many of you (and DOB) seem to think it is.
Like the other GMs, Wren is a businessman. He knew when he offered arb to Soriano that there was a reasonable chance Soriano accepted. I’m sure that before he made his decision to offer he was in contact with ownership about his payroll flexibility.
It’s not like this decision snuck up on Wren. Since the moment they offered, he knew this was a distinct possibility. I’m sure he’s prepared to deal with it.
Jeff R
December 8th, 2009
9:45 am
DOB… “Just raise the payroll amount for a month or two, until you can trade Soriano in a good deal. And if you have a major bullpen injury in the interim, well, you’re surely covered better than any other team in baseball would be.”
What you wrote makes perfect sense. Would seem to take the pressure off Wren to move Lowe or Vazquez for a lot less than he would want just to free up payroll.
Wyatt Earp @ the Mmmk Corral
December 8th, 2009
9:46 am
I gotcher back…
Liberty Media’s invest ment in Sirius XM Radio has returned more than $1.7 billion in nine months, CEO Greg Maffei said. Liberty, controlled by Chairman John Malone, loaned $530 million to Sirius in February and paid $12,500 for a warrant granting a 40 percent stake.
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/business_briefs_F3IZADd05Yr4wdTAIb5suO#ixzz0Z6ivP7Lv
RC
December 8th, 2009
9:48 am
glord1,
I won’t say that I believe your 9:42 comments to the full extent that you do, but I do believe that there is some truth in that theory.
Nova Scotia Steve
December 8th, 2009
9:48 am
I don’t care what anyone says…I hope Soriano accepts his role with the team…blows the doors of everyone and gets back to pitching in the 8th or 9th inning for the Braves.
I don’t like this 40 year-old Saito signing just yet. Only reason being is because I’m ignorant and have not seen him pitch much. Oh yeah and he’s 40.
With Atlanta willing to eat some of Lowe’s salery we’ll be able to move hit I would think we could move him easy.
Say in the area of 4-5 million per-season for the next three years. I think someone bites…no problem.
I guess I’m just hoping we don’t end up with another Casey Kotchman at 1b…but maybe that would be okay (to get that type of cheap deffensive style player) if we get an outfielder that can pop 30 HR’s a season.
PS
Saito is 40
flange 1
December 8th, 2009
9:48 am
The Soriano news is interesting! I thought the Braves would get 2 draft picks for him, but it looks like they will get someone(s) closer to being ML ready! Or better yet, get to keep him for 2010.
I wanted to get MFIKY back from the get go, and I think he could really help our pen if he stays.
I think FW needs to get his best negotiating shoes on and try to tie Soriano up to a 2 year contract at the best price he can. The sooner he can get Soriano signed, the sooner he can try to trade him if that is what the Braves want to do.
The rest of this meeting should be fun for all baseball fans. Who would have thought the Nats would sign Pudge to a 2 year deal?
ANd Randy Wolf already being offered a contract of 3 years at bigger money that Hudson just signed for?
WOW!!!!
TennesseePaul
December 8th, 2009
9:48 am
Brewers offered Wolf more than Tim Hudson’s three-year, $28MM deal
Fools. Everyone of them.
But I must admit, first glance of reading that I thought it said the Braves made the offer to Wolf. Immediate panic, regroup, reread, followed by a long sigh of relief.
David O'Brien
December 8th, 2009
9:49 am
cs95: Yes, that’s how I interpreted what Frank said. However, I also got the impression that he meant trade him well before the season begins, hence his comment about agent coming to them in a month when market heats up, and asking for trade.
I’m just saying it might take longer than that, in part depending on what Soriano’s salary is. If teams don’t even know what that salary’s going to be, exactly, it’s going to be tougher to move him early, don’t you think? Not much urgency — evident by agent’s decision — for other teams to go hard after Soriano.
So I’m just saying that if they have to start season with him on payroll, then being willing to absorb the extra payroll for a month or two until he’s moved might be crucial to Braves’ ability to do the other things they want to do with the roster.
Bat Masterson
December 8th, 2009
9:50 am
Thanks Wyatt.
BRAVE DUDE
December 8th, 2009
9:50 am
OK,folks take a min. and think back to all the Braves winning seasons they had during the 90,s…Why did they win? Pitching,Pitching,Pitching…!!!Guess what they have right now!!{Pitching} the Brave have the best pitching staff in baseball right now,top to bottom{Starters-Bullpin}so whats all the fuss about,teams will be knocking on the Braves Door trust me..c’mon FW get 1 or 2 more Pitchers and play our young guys,and pitch our way to the WS!!!!!!nuff said!!
sidslidkid
December 8th, 2009
9:51 am
glord1, I’m not going to argue with you. Let’s move on.
dmack2027
December 8th, 2009
9:51 am
Frank Wren’s comments about this not impacting the team’s ability to move forward with the offseason is just him covering his own rear.
Simply put, there is a reason most teams have not signed free agents yet. You cannot risk having a player accept arbitration. Maybe you sign Wagner, but you surely dont sign Saito before knowing what Soriano and Gonzo are going to do.
I think Frank Wren did a good job of retooling the starting rotationa last winter. However, I had serious questions about the amount of egg that he took in the face during the Peavy, Furcal, and Griffey debacles. It seems like he has learned his lesson and stopped being so public about trade/contract negotiations. Here is my problem. He should have known this before last winter. This is not his first rodeo. People in that position do not need to be learning on the job.
The same theory holds true with what happened yesterday. He went overboard signing Saito and Wagner before knowing what Sori and Gonzo were going to do with arbitration. This team badly needs a first baseman and a left fielder, both with pop. This is another mistake by Frank Wren, plain and simple.
Now we have to trade a high priced pitcher, and a high priced closer/setup guy before spring training. Not enviable. Lets see what he can make of this.
Big EC
December 8th, 2009
9:51 am
Why did we buy Lowe for the short run or the long run? Why did we buy Adam Laroche? for the short run or the long run? Why have we kept Chipper now for the long run or the short run?
I mean with Frank Wren I don’t know where we are headed. With John Shuerholz we were focused on winning championships every year and his moves were towards that end. With Wren we are looking to run a business. Having a non playoff team with no opportunity to win a championship is poor business. Adding Wagner and the other reliever doesn’t help win a championship. Adding Adam Dunn does not help win a championship. Keeping Vasquez and Soriano and Gonzalez does. Let Adam LaRoche play first every day. Team unity helps win championships. I believe that Soriano, Gonzalez, and Laroche wanted to stay with the Braves. So does Chipper and probably Lowe. Let Bobby Cox manage this team for a full year without all of the disruptions that these inane deals are causing.
David O'Brien
December 8th, 2009
9:52 am
Flange 1: Man, you’ve really got a different take on this than most, including the Braves. Wren made it clear yesterday, they’re going to try to trade him, and fully intend to trade him. (It’ll be interesting what they say about that now, however — will they still be as open with intentions, or might Braves now say they’re not pressured to keep Soriano, so other teams interested in trading for him don’t try to leverage that knowledge of the Braves’ need to move him?)
JReeves
December 8th, 2009
9:52 am
Read into the Wolf situation thought guys, what it does say is the market for starting pitchers is starting to develop, and be established at a very good rate of return. If Wolf signs for MORE than Huddy, it is a very good sign for us moving Lowe.
Imagine if we eat 2 Million a year…..that makes him only a 13 Mil investment, when it looks like Wolf will get around $10Mil…..sounds moveable to me
AndyC
December 8th, 2009
9:53 am
I agree with DOB. The Braves need to play this one cool and wait for a market to develop for Soriano. Like he said, other teams think the Braves need to dump him soon so they won’t be inclined to offer much for him. I can see this going to spring training or even the beginning of the season. When a couple of teams that need closers come calling, the Braves can play them against each other and get a respectable return for him. I just hope this doesn’t affect their ability to go after trades or free agents.
Mark C.
December 8th, 2009
9:53 am
DOB
If the Braves can come to an agreement with Soriano before arbitration, would they still need his consent to move him before 6/15?
Lew
December 8th, 2009
9:54 am
Come on now-If nothing else (whether realistic or not that it remains like this), y’all really have to smile at the potency of this rotation. I’m not so sure I’ve seen another rotation any stronger (hell, even near this strong) from top to bottom than this one as currently constituted in decades.
Yes, you DO need offense, but with this group, you could score two runs on most nights and pretty well be assured of a win. It’s got to be some great fantasy material to dwell on. I’m not sure there’s any team that could win a series against us with this rotation and pen. Just sayin’. They’re probably good enough to withstand starting Church and Kelly. Well, maybe not-we need the money we’ll save from them.
wjones
December 8th, 2009
9:54 am
I still don’t see this as a major issue. If he had not offered arb to MFIKY, he receives nothing. So if he trades him for absolutely nothing, he is no worse off than if he didn’t offer arb to begin with, right? But he WILL get SOMETHING for him. Maybe not much. Maybe he is included in a trade with another player (Lowe, Vazquez, Johnson…)to sweeten the deal.
But man, we all know we aren’t keeping him, but how great would it be if we were? Wagner as THE closer. Saito and MFIKY available for seventh/eighth inning duty, with both able to spell Wagner as closer so his arm doesn’t fall off. None of them having to go back-to-back games, unless in extreme circumstances. Moylan there for situational work, and not having to overwork him. EOF as your LOOGY. Medlen available for long/middle work, as well as designated K pitcher. Leaves one more spot for another lefty. This would also give the team flexibility to deal both Lowe and Vazquez/KK, with Medlen moving into rotation. Yes, I know this won’t happen, but wouldn’t it be cool if it was a possibility?
Braves 4 Life
December 8th, 2009
9:57 am
It’s simple the Orioles need a closer and have a glut of Outfielders: Reimold, A. Jones, N. Markakis, Felix Pie, and Luke Scott and they liked Soriano before he accepted arb. If Soriano agrees to be traded send him packing for either Pie or Scott who are both affordable both this year and next. Pie has not hit arb yet so his salary would be around $500K and Scott has but still remains in team control for the next two years at a price tag of around $3M next year.
Jeff R
December 8th, 2009
9:58 am
Nova Scotia Steve… Unless Wagner or Saito are injured, Soriano isn’t going to get the chance to setup or close. Wren and Company have already made their call, and it’s not Gonzo (who, as a Boras client, is sensibly staying in the market) and Soriano.
As to the Braves eating some of Lowe’s contract and moving him anyway, very possible, but if I’m an opposing team’s GM, I’m going to think that Wren needs to reduce payroll. So I’ll take Lowe if Wren is willing to lower his price.
Jeff R
December 8th, 2009
9:58 am
As to why this is a dumb move for The Scowl. Suppose the best deal Soriano could have gotten was two years at the same salary he received from the Braves for 2009 ($6.1 million?) So, he gets a deal worth $12.2 million for two years. Does he come out ahead? In one sense, yes. He’s got the security of a two-year deal. Arm health isn’t a worry, nor is performance. He gets the money, regardless.
JReeves
December 8th, 2009
9:59 am
Does M. Gonzalez come off the 40 man roster now that he declined ARB???
JReeves
December 8th, 2009
10:00 am
And come someone tell me what MFIKY stands for???? I know it refers to Sori, but fill me in???
RC
December 8th, 2009
10:00 am
Here’s a theory on what MIGHT be going on with Soriano, although I would be suprised:
Let’s say that his agents have already found a team willing to give Soriano a contract similar to what he’ll gain in arbitration this year, however, the team is NOT willing to give that type of contract and lose their first round pick. Knowing the Braves will attempt to trade Soriano as soon as he accepts their arbitration offer, the agents tell this “mystery team” that they’ll be able to do what is essentially a “sign and trade” to obtain Soriano, and give up a prospect that is not as valuable to them as a first round pick would have been. The Braves are not really in a position to turn down any reasonable offer, and Soriano is able to lock himself into a big one-year payout while being traded to the team he wanted to go to anyway.
One big risk for Soriano: The Braves COULD simply refuse to trade with the team Soriano is trying to force himself to, although they don’t really seem to be in a position right now to turn down any reasonable offers.
Mikeyc588
December 8th, 2009
10:01 am
JReeves: And come someone tell me what MFIKY stands for???? I know it refers to Sori, but fill me in???
+1
JReeves
December 8th, 2009
10:04 am
DOB, Soriano puts 41 people on the Braves roster, did someone get optioned, what are the rules on that???
Burdell
December 8th, 2009
10:08 am
It has to do with the look he has when he comes into games. Soriano’s nickname was previously IKY and someone added the MF and it stuck. The IKY is “I’ll kill you”. I’ll leave it up to you to guess what the MF stands for.
Wayne in Utah
December 8th, 2009
10:09 am
Just as Dave and flange are saying, it’s time for Frank to zip the lip and get a stay from the Liberty Media folks. I think it is time for the Braves to move cautiously in ALL moves; trading Soriano and Lowe and adding offense. No need for panic moves at all.
Get Soriano signed early, and go with the intent of keeping him until mid June. Wait and let some of the FA starters determine some value which might eventually increase Lowe or Vazquez’ value on the trade market.
If a clearly good deal comes along, pull the trigger, but otherwise, let things develop.
Now, if Liberty will get on board…………….
Wayne in Utah
December 8th, 2009
10:10 am
Burdell
Macon (county) farmboy???
O.J.
December 8th, 2009
10:11 am
Here is a good possibility on why he accepted arbitration, this makes a ton of sense.
http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/12/did-sorianos-agent-find-a-way-around-draft-pick-compensation/
cs95
December 8th, 2009
10:11 am
DOB,
thanks. yea, i agree. just fyi olney is reporting that the braves may have to eat some of SORIANO’s salary. i don’t get this. i mean other than gonzo isn’t soriano a top reliever? with wolf being offered 9per, I don’t see moving soriano and/or lowe as a problem. looks like we will be seeing more MAGIC from wren this offseason. cannot wait.
RC
December 8th, 2009
10:12 am
DOB, Soriano puts 41 people on the Braves roster, did someone get optioned, what are the rules on that???
I had the same question last night. I think that until the arbitration hearing (or a contract agreement), Soriano isn’t “officially” on the 40-man roster, so a decision doesn’t have to be made until then. But that could be completly incorrect, so anyone who knows please clarify.
Burdell
December 8th, 2009
10:16 am
This may be a dumb question, but the Braves should have some cash allocated to the draft to cover the potential 2 first round draft picks. Since they’ll now only have 1 first round draft pick, why not reallocate some of that money back to the team payroll? A first round draft pick runs $3-$5 million in signing bonuses these days.
RC
December 8th, 2009
10:16 am
OJ, thanks for the sabernomics link. Sounds like I’m not the only one that thinks Soriano is angling for a “sign and trade” type situation.
reason
December 8th, 2009
10:17 am
DOB, what are the chances the braves work a two year deal with Soriano just to increase potential trade interest from other clubs? Maybe more clubs would take Soriano at two years 5 mil. than one @ 8 mil. Or maybe that’s completely wrong.
raleighbravesfan
December 8th, 2009
10:18 am
Wayne – agree completely. A fire sale is a killer. If Liberty is on board (and they should be), we can wait until trade deadline if needed, or pull the trigger when some team really needs our pitchers.
Problem with Soriano is you cannot trust him – questionable injuries and sporatic effort. When is is engaged, he is great. In mean time, pitching staff is awsome. I would be tempted to give young guys a chance, and go after a big bat only when we work a reasonable trade for Lowe/Vazquez/MFIKY. We may get big surprise from kids. In mean time, pitchers should limit number of runs needed.
RC
December 8th, 2009
10:19 am
This may be a dumb question, but the Braves should have some cash allocated to the draft to cover the potential 2 first round draft picks. Since they’ll now only have 1 first round draft pick, why not reallocate some of that money back to the team payroll? A first round draft pick runs $3-$5 million in signing bonuses these days.
Not to mention the money they’d have spent to sign the supplemental round pick. Basically, there are 2 fewer draft picks for them to have to spend to sign as a result of MFIKY’s arb acceptance. The money doesn’t exactly equal out, but it’s more than half.
O.J.
December 8th, 2009
10:19 am
welcome RC, and reason, no there is no reason for Soriano to take less on a two year deal, he could have gotten that on the open market. I believe he fully intends to get his max value this winter.
JReeves
December 8th, 2009
10:20 am
Mother F’r I’ll Kill You???? How did that stick
Erik
December 8th, 2009
10:20 am
DOB
I have a BIG question for you. Would Soriano have to approve a trade on a case by case basis or once he requests a trade is any trade fair game?
I know the Yankees say they are cutting payroll but at the end of the day they are still the Yankees. I would seem a Lowe/Soriano package would be mighty tempting considering they are looking for bullpen help as well as another SP or two. Maybe if the braves throw 9M(over next 3 years) at the Yanks offer Soriano and Lowe they could get Swisher and a nice prospect.
Swisher gives the Braves a Switch hitter with power who plays both corner OF and 1B. Sure would be nice to have that kind of positional flexibility, not to mention his OBP and slugging.
It would leave the Yanks short in the OF but with them already linked to Damon and the wealth of OF available I think they would seriously consider that.
Another little perk to that plan is it would screw Soriano out of saves and tech him a lesson.
ncscoots
December 8th, 2009
10:22 am
RC, re your 10:00, what might the Braves think constitutes a “reasonable offer”, though? They offered the guy arb in the hopes of getting relatively high draft picks for him, so I doubt that they will give him away for low-upside prospects.
The market for closer-type relievers is still what it was before Soriano accepted. Unless more folks than I have misread that market, there’s more demand than supply and Soriano still resides near the top of the supply. Wren may not get two high-upside prospects for the guy, but he probably wasn’t going to get that with the draft picks, either (that would be just a little lucky).
Hey, it may all work out for the best, while still being a pain in the rear. Wren may come up with a prospect relatively close to the bigs, or a lower-level guy with higher upside. That’s at least as much value a draft pick.
O.J.
December 8th, 2009
10:24 am
I dont think Soriano accepting arbitration affects Wrens ability to get a bat, I just dont think its going to happen anytime soon. I dont think we will actually hear anything from the winter meetings at all, and that kinda sucks because I was sure there would be something going on.
Lew
December 8th, 2009
10:26 am
No need for the Chicken Little mind set (though it IS a typical reaction here). Most are just looking at this situation hind end up.
First, let’s assume a worst case arbitration scenario where MFIKY gets an $8 mil award. You can trade him the middle of June, or $4 mil through his salary. In effect, he just cost us either Church or Kelly Johnson. HMMMMM.
Now let’s carry this a step further. We’re (at this point) $4 mil in the hole for the balance of the season IF we don’t trade him. Wren has come out time and again claiming that there is definitely payroll flexibility-that he has the permission of Liberty and his bosses to spend a bit more if necessity dictates it. $4 mil seems like a reasonable amount of flexibility-at least to me (ain’t my jack, Jack, so what does it matter to me? Might as well be Monopoly money, right?). Or, it means we just non-tendered the other one of KJ or Church. Again, HMMMMMMM. G+Followed by a heartfelt, Ah Darn.
So if we already have his salary and arb acceptance covered and we had already planned on moving a pitcher, what’s the big deal? Does Soriano’s presence in the pen make us stronger? Of course. Does it mean we might possibly get by with a tad less offense from a lesser addition? Of course.
Where’s the sky pieces y’all are claiming are hitting you about the head and shoulders? Emporer’s New Clothes? Maybe so.
NC Braves Fan
December 8th, 2009
10:26 am
cs95: the problem is there are a lot of relievers available by trade and FA so the market is a bit saturated.
Also, if Wagner is only worth $6.5 mill a year, how much would you pay for Soriano?
In this case, the salary potential through arbitration exceeds the market value for Soriano at this particular point in time.
Burdell
December 8th, 2009
10:26 am
Mother F’r I’ll Kill You???? How did that stickJReeves
The same way all nicknames stick on here – one person comes up with it, thinks it’s funny, and repeats it over and over. Noobs come to the site and repeat it so they can come across as “regulars”. Then it takes off.
stamper
December 8th, 2009
10:27 am
hypothetically speaking… say Soriano just decides he wants to stick it to the Braves and decline every trade scenario before his June veto date, so to speak, expires. It would actually work out better for us.
While the braves are at a major disadvantage right now, come June (and every day closer to the July 31st trading deadline) the Braves will be in the driving seat.
Every year there are 3 or 4 teams who desperately need a closer to get to October. There’ll be many teams offering us better trading chips for Soriano in June/July, compared to what they’d offer us today, and probably even January.
This is just hypothetical, and something I’d just assume not have to deal with – because of all the other obstacles his name remaining on our roster creates, but the possibility does exist.
CB
December 8th, 2009
10:27 am
Gee,it sounds like scoots and I agree on something- a Hokie and a Tiger. Will wonders never cease?
RC
December 8th, 2009
10:27 am
I have a BIG question for you. Would Soriano have to approve a trade on a case by case basis or once he requests a trade is any trade fair game?
Pretty certain he can approve/reject a trade on a case by case basis.
As for everyone’s vitrol toward Soriano, I just don’t get it. Yeah his decision stinks for the Braves organization, but he didn’t make it in order to hurt the organization. He made the decision that he and his representation viewed to be the most beneficial for him personally, which is exactly what he should have done. To think that he “owes” anything to the Braves is completely ridiculous, aside from fulfilling the terms of his contract. The Braves “hurt” him by offering arbitration, because it greatly diminished his market value. Everyone looks out for themselves, and does what they view to be the best situation for them as an individual or organization. That’s the way economics works.
Macon Braves (RIP)
December 8th, 2009
10:29 am
If the Braves nontender KJ and Church, are able to dump Lowe’s contract (they weren’t gonna get a lot in return even before this happened), and saving the money Gonzo made last year, they should still have about $25 million coming off the books. Saito/Wagner got almost $10, Soriano will get $1 or $2 million raise, and even with other increases there should still be $10 million or so available even with the payroll staying the same. If the payroll was increased around $5 million, that should be enough to sign Cameron and then a first baseman. Or it could make the Braves really hope that Heyward or Freeman is ready to start the year in Atlanta and just spend $10 million or so on just one veteran guy.
NC Braves Fan
December 8th, 2009
10:31 am
RC: co-signing your 10:27am. It’s the free market at work. In this case, the commodity happens to be human beings. (Well, most of them are human, I assume.)