2:28 pm December 1, 2009, by David O'Brien
December 2nd, 200912:14 pm
This team isnt going to land a big slugger unless its a huge surprise trade. Adding Cameron would be smart definitly if he comes around a 5 million price range. This team will have enough offense if we add a couple solid bats that play good defense. Cameron will hit 25 homers and play great defense, also think about it he is taking Loafs spot. Huge Upgrade.
Starting outfield will be
RF Diaz until Heyward is called up.
If Wren can sign Roachy for 2 yr deal. Or find a simaler replacement at 1st. this team will have enough offense. Considering how good our pitching is and our defense will be improved as well with Cameron and the emergance of Heyward. We would going from one of the most unathletic outfields to a very athletic outfield.
December 2nd, 200912:15 pm
Everyone saying Cameron is a low RBI guy, you are ignoring his defense! His UZR being around 10 and Garret Andersons being around -12 means that Cameron is worth 22 MORE RUNS than Anderson. You can add that to RBI or whatever but that alone turns a 70 RBI guy into a 90 RBI guy. Sign Cameron.
December 2nd, 200912:17 pm
DOB, do you know how much approximate $ the braves would be under their desired payroll right now? — Jo
December 2nd, 200912:20 pm
Lexbrave: it’s $7 mill with a $6.5 mill vesting option for 2011.
By the way, how can you “loathe” Billy Wagner? Always seemed like a hard-nosed, no-b.s. type of guy to me, with an upper-90 mph fastball to boot.
December 2nd, 200912:21 pm
CB DAP, love is greater,huh? You must not be married.
yes, i am. happily. its wonderful!
I’d rather have just about anyone replace Boog than Chip Caray… except for Rathbun! God PLEASE not him!!!
DOB, I think Cameron could be signing soon, seems logical to me. About what time is Wagner supposed to take his physical? Do you know?
December 2nd, 200912:22 pm
DOB…. can you expand on that response???
JeffR-Not too sure you can insure a one year contract. I think it has to be a multi year deal to do that.
December 2nd, 200912:23 pm
Any chance you could let us know here on the blog or via Twitter when you’re going to do an interview like the one Mr. Snrub mentioned? I know you’re not much of a self-promoter, but I think many of us are interested in what you have to say, especially in an off-the-cuff setting.
..or maybe leak the info to a blog regular, so no one can accuse you of being self-aggrandizing.
If you want to know where the Braves stand payroll-wise, this lays it all out for you…
December 2nd, 200912:24 pm
DAP,j/k, I am also.
December 2nd, 200912:27 pm
I hereby officially applaud the Wagner signing
December 2nd, 200912:30 pm
At the very least, you have to applaud the fact that Wren does not eff around. Dude makes a list and gets it done. Gives Braves fans a lot more confidence and excitement than those of many teams, to be sure, whether or not his moves always yield perfect results.
Long time Braves fan
December 2nd, 200912:34 pm
Actually the Braves payroll is updated here:
KC provided last year’s payroll spreadsheet, which has already changed — and which will likely change soon when Wagner’s deal becomes official
civilized white trash
December 2nd, 200912:36 pm
it may just be me but it seems like the next move may be awhile before it happens
December 2nd, 200912:38 pm
Some folks have commented about Carlos Delgado as a possible first baseman for Braves. From what I read he is supposed to play in the Puerto Rican winter league soon (mid-December). Until he shows he is healthy, it is doubtful that the Braves or any other team will sign him, despite the fact he hit well in early 2009 for Mets.
December 2nd, 200912:40 pm
Heres the thing about trading Lowe to get out from under his contract. You wont get much in return. Plus, if you turn around and sign Javy to an extension, you really are not saving that much money. Javy might not command 15 million, but it will be close. On top of all that, historically Derek is the better pitcher. Just like Schafer, I believe that blister/hand problem might be at the root of his bad stretch there.
When you add all of this up, I think the Braves should trade Javy to get a nice package of prospects.
December 2nd, 200912:41 pm
Lew, sorry. By that I meant Wren should seriously consider signing Dotel or Rodney to provide the backup arm if Wagner is injured or just not getting the job done.
December 2nd, 200912:45 pm
From MLB Trade Rumors:
12:36am: The Braves officially announced the Wagner signing, tweets MLB.com’s Mark Bowman. That implies he passed his physical.
December 2nd, 200912:46 pm
Wagner deal is done, physical has been passed, press conference at 2:30 p.m.
December 2nd, 200912:48 pm
I for one am in agreeance with dmack2027. Trade Vazquez for prospects. I think with the spotlight off Lowe now that Hudson is signed he will have a better year. Lowe nor Vazquez will get us the bat we need.
Have all the confidence in the world that Wagner will get the job done and be every bit as good as advertised.
I really didn’t like Dotel much the first time around…too shaky and had a weak temperment.
Rodney would be a weaker Gonzo in that he likes to walk the ballpark, so no thank you.
I wouldn’t mind taking a run at Saito, but his age scares me a bit even though his numbers overall have been outstanding.
Also wouldn’t mind at all giving the 8th inning job to Medlen and asking JoJo to be the long reliever if he’s still around.
Lots of options now with Wags in the fold…its all good today guys
what if the braves could make some sort of deal for matt lindstrom (a fellow idaho boy) the back end of the bullpend could arguably be better then it was this year. with lindstrom, moylan, wagner, there are three shutdown guys. i know lindstrom did struggle as a closer for the fish but being mentored by wagner could help him to be a future closer
December 2nd, 200912:49 pm
JUST ONCE could we have a free agency signing without you throwing in the guy’s “love” or “respect” for Bobby Cox. If you read your own blog you’d realize 70% of the people on here would like to see the clueless old coot put out to pasture. I’m sure his horses in Adairsville will love and respect him as well.
I like Saito as the Set up option.
ITS OFFICIAL BOYS, WE HAVE US A CLOSER!
Welcome to the Braves Wags!
December 2nd, 200912:53 pm
Now let’s add a backup closer.
I agree. He shouldn’t cost too much either. Another guy to look at as a set-up option is Kiko Calero. Both older relievers, but neither should cost too many dollars.
Here is to hoping Gonzo and Soriano bring back two first round draft picks.
dmack2027: Well put. I have mentioned before that people should view Vasquez and Lowe to trading stocks. They both have a long enough history to see trends and expectations.
Lowe’s stock is down but history shows that chances are good that he will be more producitive next year and return closer to career trends.
Vasquez is on the opposite end. He had a career year last year and his stock has not likely ever been much higher. Trade while he is the most valuable and you can expect greater returns.
Next year chances are both of these guys move back towards the median. And we could have some great players/prospects that Vaz’s value could net, or we could save slightly more money and have a decent bench player or two.
December 2nd, 200912:54 pm
I think the Wagner deal is a boon for the Braves. Love Gonzo and MFIKY, but they were just too unpredictable at the late part of the season. Will miss them, but that’s baseball.
McFann: Not only have I put the Bmac jersey on my wish (for the hubby) list for Christmas, but I also put on there today the 6 pack of games. Maybe I’ll get both
Kelly Johnson for Matt Lindstrom…
Who would make that deal?
December 2nd, 200912:55 pm
It’ll be nice having Wagner for all those big LH bats in the NL East
Forgot about Calero. Like him as well and think he’d be solid. His numbers have always been fairly good and I’ve liked him since his days as a Cardinal.
Wayne in Utah
December 2nd, 200912:56 pm
Please, speak for yourself. I for one will be one sad sumbeach when the “old coot” is put out to pasture. Count me as one of the 30%.
(btw, I think it is more 70/30 wanting BC to stay)
Where did you get the 70% figure for bloggers wanting Cox gone.
December 2nd, 200912:57 pm
70%? Either you are terrible at math, or you count one person posting their dislike 20 times as 20 different people. If you read…, well, anything, you’d realize that 90% of the players in major league baseball have a tremendous amount of respect for the guy. So excuse me if I place a LITTLE more emphasis on the opinions of MLB players over faceless blog posters who like the word “donkey”.
I don’t see the KJ for Lindstrom deal happening. That means that KJ would be offered arbitration and if I remember correctly he made over 4 mil last year and would be do a raise. The money side of it doesnt fit the Marlins otherwise I think they’d have interest.
i thought maybe jo jo for lindstrom, isnt mlb ready starting pitching more valuable then bullpen
Hey DOB do you know when the Braves will post their spring training schedule?
December 2nd, 200912:59 pm
I agree Wayne
While talent for talent, a KJ for Lindstrom trade might work out; you have to consider the reason that the Marlins want to possibly deal Lindstrom. They do NOT want to pay his arbitratiion scale salary.
What would lead you to believe they would want to pay arb scale salary for KJ?
KJ will be non-tendered, or dealt to a team with a lot more payroll flexibility.
no love for brandon lyon? he didnt get offered arbitration and is coming off a very good year. i dont know how much he will get offered, but he would be a great pickup for the ‘pen.
December 2nd, 20091:01 pm
Lyons did get offered arbitration by the Tigers, I do believe.
Braves 2010 spring training schedule:
December 2nd, 20091:02 pm
FoxSportsSouth had a list of 10 finalists for Boog’s job, and Caray has been added to that list (making it 11). They wouldn’t give me other names, however.
Now that we have the back end of the bullpen locked down, what is likely to happen next? What else can Wren be working on so “aggresively”. I hope to see some more moves down by next week!
December 2nd, 20091:03 pm
I knew there had to be some reason I liked you!
I wouldn’t be suprised if Cameron is the next move or the dealing of Lowe or Vazquez.
December 2nd, 20091:04 pm
i think we need one more good reliever that can contribute right out of the gate. i like calero as well. dont forget, the braves will have proctor and abreu that may be able to help at some point in the season.
December 2nd, 20091:05 pm
If FW makes 2-3 more deals in the next week, then we are going to be bored to tears during the Winter Meetings! Dave will have to cancel his trip to sunny Indiana!
I’d love to see chip back. And a lot of those that don’t like him may want to be careful what you wish for.
December 2nd, 20091:06 pm
With Bobby Bowden now gone it’s one Bobby down and one to go. Is Terry Pendleton to be the Braves Jimbo Fisher?
December 2nd, 20091:08 pm
I don’t know about TP. He is hard to gauge. Seems like a good egg, but is not outspoken, so he is a bit hard to figure if he has management potential.
I am not overly impressed by his handling of some of our misfit hitters.
Lucky Ned Pepper
December 2nd, 20091:09 pm
Wren doesn’t make many lateral moves, and when he decides on a player he isn’t afraid to pull the string.
I think either Vaz or Lowe trade will come later. Probably after the meetings. I just get that feeling because there are so many moving parts and different scenarios that the Braves front office has to find these options, weigh them, and then decide. I would take may sweet time too.
December 2nd, 20091:10 pm
JeffR-Ah! THAT kind of insurance. I wouldn’t mind seeing Moylan and Wagner used like Gonzo and Soriano last year-a RH?LH tandem. THAT might be our insurance. But point well made-we need additional bullpen arms, without a doubt.
December 2nd, 20091:11 pm
Dotel signing or KJ trade is next.
December 2nd, 20091:14 pm
wayne, you are correct. i misread the headline.
Can someone remind me what the deadline for player to accept/decline arbitration is? Just wondering since I’d guess any additional moves might be held off on until we know for sure that Gonzo and Soriano aren’t accepting arbitration.
December 2nd, 20091:17 pm
Bullpen Arms: Wagner to close. Moylan, who is not very effective against lefties. O’Flaherty, who is less effective against righties.
Then we have Medlen, who is a bit of an enigma.
Logan and Acosta, who might both be sent packing.
Then we have Kimbrel, who might not be ready and Valdez, who might not be major league caliber.
We need about 2 more arms, to be certain that we will have decent competition. There are a lot of decent pitchers, who will probably be non-tendered, and available at closer to market value for a reliever.
FoxSportsSouth had a list of 10 finalists for Boog’s job, and Caray has been added to that list (making it 11).
Oh, no! I pray to the baseball gods above that Chip realizes that he needs to start his own legacy with another team instead of living in his father’s shadow. Someone should tell him…gently. I couldn’t do that, so it’s up to someone else.
Maybe I should write a letter to FoxSportsSouth…
December 2nd, 20091:19 pm
Maybe throw JoJo into the bullpen mix?
December 2nd, 20091:22 pm
Wayne, we also have Lee Hyde, Luis Valdez, Juan Abreu and Scott Proctor. I really think they just need one arm to be the primary 8th inning reliever. Based on Moylan’s splits, I’m not sure he can be that guy.
December 2nd, 20091:23 pm
Add another one to the Chip AND Bobby fans…gotta love Chip’s enthusiasm, even if he does make a lot of mistakes. I will miss him on TBS (not there’s a lot of baseball on TBS these days any more, sad for us out of market fans). I also like hearing how players want to be on the Braves because of Bobby, whatever it takes.
: Wagner to close. Moylan, who is not very effective against lefties. O’Flaherty, who is less effective against righties.
Then we have Medlen, who is a bit of an enigma.
We need about 2 more arms, to be certain that we will have decent competition.
wayne, dont forget about proctor and abreu. proctor may be inserted in june, and abreu may compel us to bring him up as well.
“But point well made-we need additional bullpen arms, without a doubt.”–Lew
Besides Wagner, Moylan, O’Flaherty and Medlen, we have Scott Proctor if he comes back well from surgery. There is the possibility of bringing up Lee Hyde. And some assortment of Acosta, Logan, maybe Reyes. I doubt the bullpen will be at the top of Wren’s list. He’s added two people there since the season ended (if Proctor can make the team).
I wonder where Erik Bedard will end up. He is supposedly a hard guy to get close to, or at least hard for the press to get close to.
But, when he was on a few years back in Baltimore, he was extremely good.
I still wish we had a lefty starter to throw in the mix, but I guess with some of our prospects/suspects, maybe the FO is not worried about it.
December 2nd, 20091:26 pm
Ain’t it grand? Baseball is back in the spotlight.
December 2nd, 20091:29 pm
Good points on additional bullpen arms. I would love to see at least one more decent arm added. But, filling out the pen is probably something that Wren will do closer to ST. He might add a few arms along the way (kinda like O’Flaherty last year, and Proctor and Abreu this year).
I was also forgetting about Lee Hyde.
What is the skinny on Valdez??? He did well at Mississippi last year, but his record, for the most part, is unremarkable.
December 2nd, 20091:32 pm
Wayne, thanks for the compliment above.
And in response to your 1:17 post, I agree that it’d help to add a couple of more arms to the pen to ensure we’ve got a little bit of depth in the event that some of these guys don’t quite hack it.
One thing that is REALLY encouraging about those names though, is that we seemed to have turned a corner in collecting arms with great natural “stuff”, as opposed to the interchangable guys of the past few years that had decent results but got by on guile and misdirection. See my list below for a better illustration.
“Old” Braves bullpen options: Jorge Campillio, Buddy Carlyle, Jeff Bennett, Chuck James, Oscar Villareal, Lance Cormier, Phil Stockman, Tyler Yates, Chad Paronto.
“New” Braves bullpen options: Moylan, O’Flaherty, Logan, Acosta, Kimbrel, Medlen, Valdez, Abreu.
While the relative risk is much lower with the first group, the ultimate ceiling is also much lower. I really like the idea of getting a lot of live arms for the middle of your bullpen and seeing which ones work out, as opposed to the interchangable “decent” guy in the first list.
(In fairness, there were also a few “misses” in the old bullpen set that had good stuff, notably Devine, Boyer, and McBride. But I still think we are on the right track with the current approach.)
December 2nd, 20091:33 pm
Moe Berg-You might want to count on Proctor but I sure don’t. He’s a gravy player if he manages to come back and give us anything at all and nothing else. I haven’t seen anyone in our Farm System that inspires me with much in the way of confidence, either. Maybe someone will be ready and maybe they won’t.
Point is, I’m betting Wren pulls in some more arms for the pen-maybe not huge names, but someone else, for certain. Acosta inspires me not in the least. Logan MAY be all right, but he hasn’t shown me much yet, either. They are NOT enough..
Chuck James Was Solid Until The 6th!!!!!!
WAGNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAH MAN!!!!!!!! So long Gonzo!!! I hope Soriano accepts, that’d be a wicked bullpen!! Although he won’t, but I can dream…..
NOW!!! Get that RH POWER BAT and lets ball!!!!
December 2nd, 20091:34 pm
Completely forgot about Procter. While I’d probably classify him as more of an “old” Braves bullpen guy, he does have some promise. And Hyde should have definitely been on my new list….just missed him.
December 2nd, 20091:37 pm
Aside from guys like Wagner and Mo Rivera types, bullpen guys are pitching from the pen for ONE reason……they aren’t good enough to start.
I think that list will continue to evolve. In two years, we might be saying: “I am glad we don’t have those losers from a couple of years back, like O’Flaherty, Moylan, and Valdez.”
I hope it doesn’t come to that, but I would not be surprised.
Another bullpen note. I like the idea of having a “stopper” to come in a shut down a rally in the pre-8th inning innings. Moylan was used that way a few years back. You bring him in no matter what the inning is, to get you out of a jam. I liked Moylan in that role. At times 2 years back, Bennett was successful in that role.
I would love to have one guy designated as that “stopper”.
Marc in FL
December 2nd, 20091:38 pm
This is the first major deal of the off season, if nothing else it shows the rest of baseball that the Braves aren’t going the bare minimum this year. We got Wagner cause Wren and the FO want to win in Cox’s last year, I suspect a couple more big deals for this club.
Al for ATL
Wren did move fast on that one. It will probably be a challenge to move Lowe or Vasquez for a big bat right away unless he decides to include them as part of a much more enticing package. But the problem with waiting until other teams get more desperate is – he has to deal with uncertainty of not knowing what payroll he can shed and what he can pick up, and in the meantime, a lot of guys who are probably on his target list are going to get picked up elsewhere.
At this point, I really am fine with Derek Lowe. It’d be great if we could shed the salary, but he will probably have better results in a #2 role, and I’m not convinced Vasquez will be significantly better for a second straight year.
Is Freddie Freeman considered as untouchable as Heyward? I hate those Schuerholzian moves of trading great prospects for rentals, but I wouldn’t mind a package that includes Freeman with Lowe/Vaszquez and maybe someone else for some proven hitter that is under contract for a few years.
December 2nd, 20091:40 pm
Lew, I agree with you on Acosta and Logan–just mop up roles for them. I guess the reason I’m somewhat optimistic about Proctor, is that many come back well from Tommy John surgery. I don’t think he will be as dominant as he once was but I think he has the potential to be solid.
I agree that I would like to have another arm. Just think Wren will work on his bats at 1B and LF and then see what his budget will let him do for the pen.
Hyde, Abreu, and the others in the farm. I doubt that many, if any, will start the season with the Braves but am sure that someone will make the trip down 85 at some point in the season. We’ll see how they do. What worries me, is that with the exception of Medlen, there does not seem to be anyone to make the spot start.
The fact that FW pulled the Wagner trigger this quick, bodes well for your blockbuster for a strong RH bat.
please don’t resign soriano.gonzalez should be kept but not soriano.also, why do every year they fail to secure a 1st baseman?jermaine dye is not a 1st baseman.please bring in big young bats also, don’t let laroche go.
December 2nd, 20091:42 pm
P-Town Brave… Certainly hope that Wagner lives up to expectations. If so, the Braves have a lights out closer.
Wayne in Utah… not sure that I agree that Medlen is “something of an enigma.” I think he’s got a strong arm and a lot of grit (like his buddy, Hanson). The question is, is he a better starter than reliever, or the other way around?
I think he’s got the potential to fill bth roles well. I think he could develop into a fine setup man or closer. Wagner needs to take Medlen under his wing.
December 2nd, 20091:43 pm
JoJo or Todd Redmond and maybe Scott Diamond would be other potential spot starters.
December 2nd, 20091:45 pm
To all the Yankee haters and their $1 Billion payroll…. Enjoy this and if you don’t know Bill Burr YouTube him he’s HESTERICAL!!!!!!! This clips is so priceless!! HAHAHHAHA
I think we are in agreement on Medlen. He is just unproven at this point, and we really don’t know which way to go with him.
My worry is that he will be dealt before the season begins. If that happens, I will be sad for sure.
Guys, right now the Bravos have six bona fide starting pitchers. First things first: need to find a new home for Lowe or (heaven forbid) Vazquez. Not thinking that spot starters are high on the priority list.
December 2nd, 20091:47 pm
Lillibridge last year. Medlen this year? Don’t know if I can take it folks! I feel similarly about Schafer. Dude is a ballplayer.
Wayne, you’re right about the spot starters. Just not thinking.
Wayne in Utah… I’m with you. Certainly hope they don’t move Medlen. Think that would be a mistake.
December 2nd, 20091:48 pm
“The Milwaukee Brewers have a girl with braces playing shortstop” HAHAHHA
December 2nd, 20091:51 pm
Lee would be a good start. Bay would be the other but money may or may not be there for that kind of move.
But here is the rub if you go with Cameron in the OF (fine) but you just upped the requirements at 1B.
One of those two positions will need to be a 100 RBI guy batting 4th. Chipper is only getting older, MAC will miss games as is better suited to the 5 hole. The middle of the order needs help.
We cannot speculate on who until they move Lowe or Vaz. If Cameron goes off the board while they wait to move a starter I am fine with it.
If they get him now and make a move for a slugging 1B later fine.
I just don’t see a cocktail of Cameron in LF and Nady or Troy Glaus (as an example) at 1B as being enough.
December 2nd, 20091:57 pm
This from Ken Davidoff’s Baseball Insider
“It should be noted, however, that the Braves are likely to be one of the more aggressive teams this winter. People who attended the owners’ meetings in Chicago last month came away with that sense about Atlanta, and one executive even predicted the Braves as a darkhorse contender for Matt Holliday, if they could unload Derek Lowe. From checking around some more on that one, I’d say that’s unlikely.”
I like the sound of that.
Master of Karate and Friendship
December 2nd, 20091:58 pm
I scanned through really quickly and saw somebody suggest making a move for Erik Bedard? Whaa? It’d be difficult to find a worse suggestion when you factor in the makeup of the current team, and recent history (prior to 2009) of SP question marks.
Yeah, but can she pick em?
December 2nd, 20091:59 pm
Another bonus from signing Wagner, is that we can sign another type A FA and only give up our second round pick.
So if the Braves were to sign Betancourt or Valverde they would only have to give up a second rounder.
This might give them a bit of a heads up on other teams that might not pursue them because they are Type A..
December 2nd, 20092:02 pm
Wayne did you see that clip?? HAHA That’s so priceless, Bill Burr is so right. “A bunch of luggable lovers just somehow came together to pull it off, it’s a Cinderella story!!” HAA I laugh so hard everytime. “Next year they’ll get Ryan Howard to sign and play 2nd base” I can’t get enough of it…
December 2nd, 20092:08 pm
Me at 1:23pm
wonder where Erik Bedard will end up. He is supposedly a hard guy to get close to, or at least hard for the press to get close to.
Master of Karate at 1:58pm
scanned through really quickly and saw somebody suggest making a move for Erik Bedard? Whaa? It’d be difficult to find a worse suggestion when you factor in the makeup of the current team, and recent history (prior to 2009) of SP question marks.
Not sure that really qualifies as suggesting making a play for Bedard???
Bedard is sure a quirky guy, but for sure not a Manny/Milton type.
December 2nd, 20092:15 pm
I’m impressed that Wren moved this quickly in signing Wagner. It really demonstrates his desire to win. But I don’t think we shold all take this as a hint that more moves are coming quickly. The need for a closer was obvious. One way or another Wren had to acquire a closer. there not much to debate with regard to roster construction or moving parts there. Filling holes in the lineup is more complicated. Wren’s got to trade/unload a pitcher, and then figure out who’s available and at what price. Does he go with a stop gap 1B and sign a big outfield bat, or sign a stopgap OF and trade for a big 1B bat, yadda yadda yadda. The first step has to be to unload Lowe or trade Vazquez. Until that happens everything will be in limbo.
December 2nd, 20092:19 pm
Press conference at 2:30 for Wagner
December 2nd, 20092:24 pm
I predict a Dotel signing. Where the RH Power bat for the #4 spot is coming from I don’t know. But actually GETTING that bat not only adds a huge legit power cleanup hitter but it enables Chipper to relax and hit .350 again. So not only do you add the power bat, you get Chipper back to a .430+ OBP batting .350+ as this would give him more pitches and ease the pressure off him to swing at pitches he normally wouldnt like he did last year. (See 2008 when Tex protected him)
This also puts Mac in the 5 or 6 hole to be more comfortable and more productive. I mean GARRETT ANDERSON batting cleanup “protecting” Chipper last year??!?! I remember that happening far to often… THAT’S pathetic!! Maybe 03 Loaf but not ‘09.
Link to press conference:
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