12:05 am November 17, 2009, by David O'Brien
November 22nd, 20096:33 pm
JJ – New Orleans Saints?
November 22nd, 20096:35 pm
Take Jurrjens out of that deal & throw in Rohrbough, or a pitcher in the minors of that caliber, then I would definitely do that for Gonzalez. No way I trade either one of JJ or Hanson under most any circumstance.
November 22nd, 20096:39 pm
Steve from OH – I would say you are about right on how that conversation went
TnBrian – I agree, I’m not trading JJ or Hanson
Freeman,Schafer and Medlen would seem to be enough to me for a two year rental. Now if they were able to sign him to an extension, maybe more.
November 22nd, 20096:47 pm
Take Jurrjens out of that deal & throw in Rohrbough, or a pitcher in the minors of that caliber, then I would definitely do that for Gonzalez.
Right, but that wouldn’t get you Gonzalez. Much less more than a 10 second conversation
November 22nd, 20096:49 pm
Now that is a winning offense and doable to obtain
November 22nd, 20096:56 pm
New Orleans Saints?
Yea, Funny thing is I had to go to NFL.com to find a team that would disappoint both you and jeffrey d. I feel like I need to wipe my browser’s history clean! :sick:
November 22nd, 20096:57 pm
Efrim, I can’t believe the Braves would even consider that trade if it included Jurrjens,unless as I said it included a good extension. This would be Tex revisited.
November 22nd, 20097:08 pm
Funny thing is I had to go to NFL.com to find a team that would disappoint both you and jeffrey d
Why not just go with the Falcons?
P. W. Hjort
November 22nd, 20097:11 pm
From the Braves they are asking for J.J.,Schafer, Medlin, and Freeman (Wow that’s too much!)
I don’t buy the validity of the rumor because I don’t think the Padres would request Freddie Freeman when they’ve got Kyle Blanks ready to step in for Adrian Gonzalez.
But you’re absolutely right. That’s entirely too much. Let’s be extremely liberal and say Adrian Gonzalez will be a 7.0 win player for the next two years (he was worth 6.3 wins in 2009–his best year. In no other years has he been worth more than 4 wins.). That kind of production is worth $63 million. Take away his $10.25 salary over the next two years and add in $800,000 for replacement and you get $55.35 million–his net trade value.
They’re requesting 2 zero service years players (Schafer, Freeman), 1 one service year player (Medlen), and 1 two service years player (Jair Jurrjens). Now, let’s be extremely conservative and say Schafer and Freeman are worth 3 wins/year (slightly better than lg. average), and Jurrjens and Medlen are worth 2.5 wins/year. Again, I’m just using these figures for the sake of conservatism. Furthermore, let’s say we refuse to ever pay one of them an arbitration salary regardless of their ability, trading or non-tendering them whenever they’re arbitration-eligible. So, you’ve got Jurrjens for 1 year, Medlen for 2 years, and Schafer and Freeman for 3 years. They’re all making the league minimum during these seasons. Jurrjens nets you 2.5 wins in his 1 season. Medlen nets you 5 wins during his 2 seasons. Schafer nets you 9 wins in his 3 seasons. And Freeman nets you 9 wins in his 3 seasons. 25.5 wins all together. Since they’re paid league minimum, their salary and the replacement level cancel out and they’re worth a net (25.5 Wins*$4,500,000) $114.75 million. That’s including none of the production/discounted salary they receive in arbitration or what kind of value they’d bring back in a trade if the Padres refused to pay them arbitration salaries. It also probably overstates Adrian Gonzalez’s production. There are some trade scenarios that you can tweak the numbers and if you squint hard enough, they look even. This one ain’t even close to close to even.
November 22nd, 20097:13 pm
CB, I’m not sure that they would. But you’d have to expect San Diego to want something better than 4 prospects for their franchise player.
but where you gone get a power hitter? Bill
I just think that if they are gonna trade prospects for a one year rental(and the Rays are probably not gonna take on a high salaried pitcher just to fight the Yanks-then club needs indicate that they should get a hitter with some cleanup ability. I have nothing against CC, in fact I kinda like him except for that paltry OBP which is not good for a lead-off hitter,they need to try hard to get someone with more pop and a longer than 1 year term if at all possible.
I have no idea what they will end up doing, it’s just too early and none of us is privy to accurate info on what they are looking for or whom is available.
Personally I think it’s gonna be damn hard to improve this offense over what it was the last few months of last year and make up for losing Gonzo and Sori.
I’ve said it b4 but I think this winter will be harder than last because there are more probable holes, OF,1B and closer and possible setup man. Made harder by the fact that the FA list in most of those areas are pretty slim, and in the pen we are actually losing the two highest RPs.
On top of that expectations are gonna be higher since we did better last season. Lot’s harder to improve an 86 win team with somewhat limited funds than it is to improve an 72 win one.
I have been pleased with Wren’s efforts so far and I think he’ll explore every opportunity,I just think he’s not got an easy job for it.
It’s also a bit harder to get a read on what might happen cause we are so used to John S approach-like prefering trades to FAs-and Wren has shown that he isn’t necessarily tied to the same way.
In other words, i got no idea, but I do think that there are at least three areas that are way more problem than wasting resources on a leadoff guy.or even more speed at just one location.
gonna be an interesting but potentially frustrating off season IMO
November 22nd, 20097:15 pm
Didn’t they only get a couple of so-so guys for Peavy?
November 22nd, 20097:19 pm
From the Braves they are asking for J.J.,Schafer, Medlin, and Freeman (Wow that’s too much!) Tenn
I don’t necessarily think it’s too much, but they have a young first base prospect that they are high on I believe.If so it’s hard to put a lot of credence in a report that indicates a lot of interest in Freeman..
November 22nd, 20097:21 pm
4 pitching prospects. But you’re talking about one of the best first baseman in baseball at an affordable rate for two seasons. There is no way that the Padres are trading him for so-so prospects. As much as I like Freeman and Schafer, I’m not taking that deal if I am SD without one of Hanson or Jurrjens. I’d hold out for a premium pitching prospect, or young major league pitcher in all talks. I’d be asking Boston for Buchholz, Baltimore for Matusz, etc.
November 22nd, 20097:23 pm
CB, that trade wouldn’t be Tex revisited. It would be the largest fleecing in the history of pro sports. A pitcher already established as one of the best young starters in the league, another young pitcher who has already made it to the majors and is showing potential to be good, a upper level prospect (I will continue to call Schafer a prospect) who has shown the potential to be great and is not far from being here, along with another one of baseballs top prospects (Freeman). No one is worth that
November 22nd, 20097:25 pm
I don’t necessarily think it’s too much,
I don’t think it’s too much either. But I don’t think the Braves are in a place to make a trade like that. A lesser hitter at a lesser cost for prospects/young players would make more sense to me.
Also, Hamilton notes that the Braves and Dodgers have at least discussed Vasquez for Juan Pierre, which I can’t see happening. Efrim
ok I’m showing my ignorance here I’m not picking up on who Hamilton is, but the two comments I’vr read in the last few minutes really make me wonder. Doesn’t SD have a young Turk for first> and Rafy for Pierre? that strikes me as totally unbelievable. Why in hell would the Braves have any interest in Pierre, he does absolutely nothing to improve the current problems, and Rafy made no bones about no wanting on the left coast and actually made Arizona-which is closer to home last time I looked- trade him east. Neither one of those reports are giving me any confidence in him.
November 22nd, 20097:26 pm
J.J.,Schafer, Medlin, and Freeman? Ha! That would be such a horrible, horrible, horrible trade for us.
braves fan lmh
November 22nd, 20097:29 pm
What would it take to get Derrek Lee from the Cubs? They are looking to move him to free up money for pitching. If the braves could trade Lowe to the angels for Juan Rivera that would free up the money needed to get a closer, and afford Lee.
No one is worth that
I’m not positive Gonzalez will be traded this offseason, but the price in prospects and young players will be enormous.
Marc in FL
November 22nd, 20097:33 pm
I still think we’ll be getting Derek Lee from the Cubs, and I think that will be a smart move.
November 22nd, 20097:35 pm
J.J, Medlen, Freeman, Jordan for A Gon. hmmm If i were Padres that is what i would ask for. The only way it would work for the Braves if we were given a window to do contract discussions with A. Gon and could come to a 5-7 year agreement. But i’m not a fan of Trading away another boat load of young talent.
Steve from OH
November 22nd, 20097:36 pm
If we get D-Lee from the Cubs, that would be a great move Marc, I agree. However, I don’t think the Cubs would part with him.
November 22nd, 20097:38 pm
I’m not positive Gonzalez will be traded this offseason, but the price in prospects and young players will be enormous. Efrim
if it isn’t that GM ain’t likely around for long. I agree that the Braves are not in a position to do that deal and would be better of getting a cheaper not quite as good hitter, but all the outrage about the deal is just another example of all the homers who overvalue all the Braves players and undervalue everybody else.It’s a bit too steep, but it isn’t outrageous. He is good, very good away from SD, and has two full years at a very reasonable price. plus he is a pretty good defensive player too sigh
Neither one of those reports are giving me any confidence in him.
I agree, nolie. Could be bogus rumors. No way the Braves would consider Pierre, and again, Javy has a NTC to West teams.
November 22nd, 20097:40 pm
However, I don’t think the Cubs would part with him Steve
from what I’ve read, he doesn’t wanna leave either so it would probably take an added incentive to convince him if it could be done at all
November 22nd, 20097:41 pm
An idea brewing in the old noggin.
Derek Lowe + Nate McLouth + Kelly Johnson for Derek Lee + Kosuke Fukudome
I think the Braves would accept, I’m almost certain the Cubs would accept as it fills 2/3 of their needs, I like it. Derek Lee would have to agree as he has a NTC.
Idk, just an idea.
November 22nd, 20097:42 pm
nolie, totally agree with your 7:38.
November 22nd, 20097:45 pm
I imagine this would work for both the Cubs and the Braves:
November 22nd, 20098:03 pm
November 22nd, 2009
richbrave – looks like we’ll have to wait until the Championship game if we’re going to meet again…
You still out there? Just got eight great seats between the forty six and forty, mid-way down for the ELON game. Are you going to go to CHATTANOOGA when the time comes? Wouldn’t surprise me to see us both in that game – hopefully.
November 22nd, 20098:05 pm
Braveheart (November 20th, 2009 2:23 am): “ ‘I see that Braveheart ’s returned to his roots in sarcastic oversimplification and trivialization of complex arguments.’ [R]
LMAO. sweetie, please don’t tell me you are deluding yourself into believing you have made a complex argument as to why Kawakami can’t be traded. Your argument is kung fu movie silly, being basically an unadulterated exploitation of superficial, antiquated stereotypes of Orientals. Less Jackie Chan silliness, more Bruce Lee seriousness out of you will prompt fewer sarcastic trivializations of your simple minded arguments.
But, anyways, if Joe Gibbs can force Tony Stewart to drive a Toyota, Frank Wren can trade Kawakami.”
Okay, Braveheart, you go ahead on and exhibit your ignorance to all and sundry. Only keep in mind, though — just because YOU ain’t read it (or don’t understand it) don’t mean it ain’t been said:
Pepperidge Blogs Remembers
Random (July 5th, 2009 9:27 pm)
Wayne in Utah (July 5th, 2009 8:50 pm): “What is your answer for the Braves, here on July 5th at 4 games back?”
[blah blah blah]
PS: And the Braves should not trade Kawakami. One — he’s better than any likely replacement; but more important, the Braves need to keep their foot in the genkan, not only for possible future Japanese imports, but also for that huge market for Braves merchandise.
. . . . .
Random (July 5th, 2009 10:44 pm)
Lamar Banks (July 5th, 2009 9:52 pm): ” ‘PS: And the Braves should not trade Kawakami. One — he’s better than any likely replacement; but more important, the Braves need to keep their foot in the genkan, not only for possible future Japanese imports, but also for that huge market for Braves merchandise.’ [R]
“This is completely an overblown notion. Keeping a player b/c of what another player might bring is laughable.”
What does that even mean? What exactly were you trying to say — “Keeping a player b/c of what another player might bring”???
“If one player is hurting the team or is not the best available he should go period.”
Like I already mentioned, Kawakami is better than any likely replacement.
“For every Ichiro there is a Kei Igawa. Not offending the Asian market is just fool-hardly.”
It’s not a matter of “offending” anyone, just keeping the player pipeline open. Who said the Braves should sign ANYone solely because they’re Japanese and regardless of how good they are??? But they should want to remain a desirable location for any GOOD Japanese players coming to MLB, and trading Kawakami may affect that.
Plus, it was pointed out that the main reason to retain Kawakami for other than “on-the-field” reasons was the huge and lucrative Japanese market for Braves merchandise, which WOULD disappear if the Braves got rid of their only Japanese player. What allowed the Red Sox to afford that $52M posting fee for Matsuzaka? The merchandising potential in Japan, that’s what.
“Asian clubs don’t keep American players for fear if they release them we will be upset.”
Completely beside the point — any andidiot knows the two leagues are in no way analogous or comparable. Nothing NPB could do would upset MLB. Besides, Japanese teams are limited to only two gaijin per team — that is two foreigners TOTAL, whether American, Korean, Taiwanese, whatever. And the only Americans playing over there are MLB cast-offs, anyway. Why should MLB care? Geezum, Will!
“It nonsense and does deserved to addressed when it come to key decisions on the field.” [sic, sic, sic]
And it’s sheer naivete to believe that player personnel decisions are based solely on on-the-field performance.
Random (July 5th, 2009 11:09 pm)
Braveheart (July 5th, 2009 10:46 pm): “Lamar, I agree somewhat on what y0u said about how it doesn’t make sense to keep Kawakami solely for fear of offending the Asian market. However, it certainly doesn’t hurt to have an Asian presence to create alternative revenue streams.
“Also, I don’t know what the numbers or percentages are, but I’ve seen a lot of Asian folks at the Ted this year donning Kawakami 11 tees, including quite a few who seem to be tourists or right off the boat. Every little bit helps for a team trying to keep up with revenue generation.”
Too right, mate.
It’s not a matter of “not offending” the Asian market — it’s all about exploiting that market to sell millions of dollars of Braves merchandise. (And I mean “exploiting” in its warm and fuzzy capitalistic sense.)
And it ain’t the nickels and dimes spent over here — it’s the billions of Japanese consumers and their billions of yen. They’ve still got way more disposable income than do their counterparts here, and boy do they dispose of it on campy stuff like jerseys and hats, etc.
And can you imagine how much the Braves cut into the Red Sox sales over there when Kawakami manhandled Matsuzaka twice this year? And Halladay?
“Bank on it.”
Random (July 6th, 2009 12:18 am)
Lamar Banks (July 5th, 2009 11:32 pm): “You are approaching the debate with the idea of capitalism from the Braves perspective.”
Of course — the Braves are the ones who’ll be making the decision on Kawakami, aren’t they? Not you or me. Or even Cox.
“That is great if your a share holder in Liberty Media inc. However that does not translate to the field. There has been no indication from Liberty Media that with increased revenue streams that payroll will be added nor has it been published how much Liberty has or projects to gain by this. All in all that said revenue could be simply pocketed by share holders and never be seen by the braves fans nor players.”
You’re making my argument for me. All we’re talking about is reasons for the Braves (Liberty) not to trade Kawakami. And if keeping him would result in “increased revenue streams that . . . could be simply pocketed by share holders and never be seen by the braves fans nor players”, that would be a most powerful reason for the Braves (Liberty) not to trade him, regardless of his “on-the-field” performance. Wouldn’t you think?
“So with that we come full circle to my original and only point as to putting the best team on the field in the short-term and long-term.
If KK is best for that role than so be it, but if the 8mil he is earning and numbers he produces is not worth of that number, then he should be replaced, regardless of capitalism.”
I repeat — it’s sheer naivete to believe that player personnel decisions are based solely on “on-the-field” performance. The point of the game is to make money.
PS: Plus, HE IS BETTER THAN ANY LIKELY REPLACEMENT.
Random (July 6th, 2009 5:59 am)
Skeeterleg (July 6th, 2009 5:12 am): “I’ve heard this way too many times too, and it bugs me to no end. Money is what signs players; not olive branches. I’ve not once heard of a Japanese player declining a huge contract because the team has never signed a Japanese player, and I doubt I ever will.”
Oh, come on — don’t be estupido. Kawakami signed with the Braves for less than he could have gotten elsewhere. The Braves offered Junichi Tazawa more than the Red Sox did — so why’s he not at Myrtle Beach? Is everybody here ADD’ed?
Kawakami signed with the Braves not just for the money, but because they went to great lengths to make him feel welcome and assure him he’d be comfortable here. Could they do that as easily (or at all) with the next Japanese free agent they might want WITH Kawakami still on the roster, or WITHOUT? Especially if they had summarily traded Kawakami after only 3 months’ play? How convincing would their “play for us — we want you” spiel be if they traded Kawakami mere months after luring him with the same spiel?
There are different factors which would enter into a Japanese free agent’s selection of a team than an American free agent’s. (Or perhaps the same factors but with wildly different relative importance.)
Is that so hard to grasp?
You sound to me like another knee jerk hater who has convinced themselves that the only thing all players want is more money and more money even though that is disproven a dozen times and more each and every year.
Random (July 6th, 2009 10:25 am)
Skeeterleg (July 6th, 2009 9:14 am): “A good financial contract isn’t the only motivating factor for signing, but its the main one. Ask Johny Damon, Mark Texiera, Alex Rodriquez, Barry Zito, Tom Glavine, C.C. Sabathia, and on and on…and I see you feel the need to call people stupid, moronic, and idiots and such if they don’t agree with you. You must have graduated from the Coach and Paul Lentz school of blogging.”
I did not call you “stupid, moronic, [or] idiots” — I simply requested that you NOT BE estupido.
You make a baseless and witless generalization about Japanese (NPB) players, and now seek to back it up with seven American (MLB) examples? I gave you two Japanese counterexamples to your ignorant generalization in two seconds off the top of my head.
It’s okay to admit that you don’t know something — you don’t have to make stuff up.
And no one has said that “you have to have Japanese players to get Japanese players” (Catch-22, anyone?) — just that that might make it easier. (And that it would probably be made much HARDER if you disrespected your current Japanese player(s).)
Is that truly so hard to grasp?
Perhaps so, for you — you have consistently misread my comments and put words in my mouth. So be it.
Random (September 17th, 2009 7:46 pm)
Rob from SC (September 17th, 2009 5:31 pm): ” ‘Kawakami will not be traded.’
For many reasons falling into two general categories — his performance and the Nippon “pipeline” (someone else’s terminology — tip o’ the hat.)
Kawakami’s good, and getting better. Braves would not be able to replace him for the same or lower salary — Medlen wouldn’t even come close, imo.
Plus, Kawakami’s worth more to the Braves than for his on-field performance. The marketing of Braves merchandise in Japan is worth lots of $$$ (as well as marketing to Japanese ex-pats here). And the Braves DO NOT want to burn their bridge to other quality Japanese players. Remember how ardently they pursued Kawakami and how hard they worked to persuade him to come to Atlanta? Well, they’re not just going to throw that high level of effort away on your whim — they have invested a heckuva lot more than $22M in Kawakami and they will not write off that investment lightly.
“who cares about other Japanese players down the road.”
Apparently the Braves do, as indicated above. They went to lengthy extremes to open that door. (And you do realize “down the road” could be as soon as next year, right?)
“We need the best team possible next year”
Imo, retaining Kawakami will help make the rotation the best it can be next year. Too many people here want to gut the rotation to shore up the offense. That’s a zero sum (or worse) proposition. The offense can be and needs to be improved WITHOUT degrading what’s kept the Braves this close this late this year.
P. W. Hjort (September 17th, 2009 3:50 pm): “Random: ‘And you do realize “down the road” could be as soon as next year, right?’
“Down the road could also be as soon as already. The Braves have already signed a Japanese player who cited Kenshin Kawakami’s signing as the reason he wanted to sign with Atlanta. I don’t know of his status, I think he’s still pitching in Japan, and I forgot his name.”
Random (September 20th, 2009 5:49 am)
Steve from OH (September 19th, 2009 1:18 pm): “Do I think he’s a lock to stay here? No–if Wren can cut Tom Glavine, he can trade Kenshin Kawakami.”
I think it’s way past time to debunk this particular myth — namely, that since Wren was able to dispassionately cut Smoltz and Glavine, he will be every bit as dispassionate in all his personnel decisions.
First, let me ask — just how personally/professionally/emotionally involved was Wren with the acquisition (or re-acquisition) and development of either Smoltz or Glavine? Practically zero, I’d say.
On the other hand, Wren busted his hump to sign Kawakami — he is deeply invested — personally, professionally and emotionally — in Kawakami’s MLB career with the Braves.
Second, and this is only what I figure — Wren did in fact bust his hump to get Kawakami as a part of a grander scheme, one of which Kawakami is only a part. An indispensable part indeed, and just the first stroke of Wren’s “masterpiece”.
(I know, I know — I’m overstating things here somewhat. But this I believe — Kawakami is a cornerstone, not just another interchangeable building block.)
Random (October 17th, 2009 9:12 am)
Jeff R (October 16th, 2009 1:10 pm): “Your 11:08 am post didn’t address my full comment. I wrote:
“ ‘Kawakami… This “Let’s not offend the Japanese” by trading Kawakami makes no sense. . . . [blah blah blah.]’
It ain’t a matter of context.
The sentence I quoted — your initial sentence — was the summary of your argument. The 9 or 10 lines that followed were your overwhelmingly convincing demonstration of how it didn’t make sense to you.
You completely ignore the context of the Braves’ pursuit, courtship and cost of their success in wooing him from rival teams like (specifically) the Red Sox (to whom the Braves had just lost — I think — Junichi Tazawa). Wren busted his a$$ to convince not only Kawakami, but also all his advisors, his family, the Japanese consulate in Atlanta, etc, that the Braves really, really valued Kawakami and wanted him in Atlanta and would take care of him while he was here. The Braves got Kawakami to commit to them in return for their commitment to him. In Kawakami, the Braves signed a FA, not a draft selection with few other options. How many MLB players are traded just one year after they have been signed as FAs?
Your off-target analogies and irrelevant f’rinstances only demonstrate how thoroughly you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Why in the world would I want to repeat that?
Random (October 17th, 2009 10:33 am)
Jeff R (October 17th, 2009 9:56 am): “Sorry, I stand by what I wrote.”
Well, of course you do — or you wouldn’t’ve written in the first place. Yer just wrong — I would hardly expect you to admit it.
“I think you overstate the relationship and underrate the Japanese grasp of the American professional game. You make Kawakami and the Japanese out to have just fallen off the proverbial watermelon truck.”
As I said, that is what YOU think — and yer still wrong.
“Might be news to you, but the Japanese are a sophisticated people with a good grasp of how the world works, especially how the United States functions, in business, culturally and politically.”
Yes they are and do, and they absolutely reject that philosophy and will not willingly subject themselves to it unless they have to.
And since all future Japanese players will be coming over here as Free Agents, they will have the option NOT to subject themselves to that philosophy, and to sign with a team that seems more sympatico to their own cultural/business values.
Please, give us some more of your insights into the Japanese people after you’ve lived and worked there for five years, negotiating contracts and interacting with them on a daily basis, professionally, socially and personally. We’d appreciate that.
Random (October 21st, 2009 6:05 pm)
Jeff R (October 17th, 2009 11:05 am): “now is your “five years” comment your coy way of saying you’ve done so?”
It’s my coy way of saying that you haven’t.
“If not, then we’re just getting YOUR two-cents as well.”
Yeah, well, that’s all I can spare for the likes of you.
In closing, I’ll leave you with the words of a denizen whose perspective I value every bit as much as my own:
Braveheart (July 5th, 2009 10:46 pm): “Lamar, I agree somewhat on what you said about how it doesn’t make sense to keep Kawakami solely for fear of offending the Asian market. However, it certainly doesn’t hurt to have an Asian presence to create alternative revenue streams.
“Also, I don’t know what the numbers or percentages are, but I’ve seen a lot of Asian folks at the Ted this year donning Kawakami 11 tees, including quite a few who seem to be tourists or right off the boat. Every little bit helps for a team trying to keep up with revenue generation. Those alternative revenue streams wouldn’t be there if the fourth starter was some serviceable starter like Jeff Suppan. I can’t imagine anyone would buy a Suppan jersey or go out of their way to watch, listen to, or attend a Jeff Suppan start.”
Braveheart (July 6th, 2009 12:55 am): Random, just agreeing with your point that getting into other markets like China helps marketability and the generation of revenue. Not arguing with you whatsoever.”
Braveheart (October 16th, 2009 2:26 pm): That is also a fair point DOB and Random raise too in whether or not trading Kawakami would hurt them in the relationships they had established in Japan. Reminds me of college football and basketball where if you recruit a kid out of a certain school, area or AAU program, you’d better not screw the kid over if you hope to go back to that school, area, or AAU program to recruit another kid.
There you go, Braveheart my friend — Enter the Dragon!!!
November 22nd, 20098:09 pm
The thing about that trade rumor is that San Diego has to realize that they can’t ask for JJ in that deal. There is a strong argument to be made that JJ has more value than Gonzalez since he is further away from free agency. That sounds like an offer being publicized that has one extra piece everyone knows wouldn’t be included. It’s really the Schafer/Freeman thing discussed earlier this week with MLB player Medlen instead of a couple of A-ball arms. I’m not crazy about giving up that much for Gonzalez, but if other counters didn’t work, it merits strong consideration. That’s bordering on being too much, but it’s an acceptable price if the Braves can work out a deal with him beyond the two years of arbitration he has remaining.
November 22nd, 20098:13 pm
Let that be a lesson to you, kids–never, ever, ever argue with Random. Ever. He’s got way too much time on his hands.
November 22nd, 20098:16 pm
Would the Braves trade an under-performing $15 million starting pitcher for a $7 million outfielder that gets along with nobody? The Cubs might do the deal – they’re prepared to eat the $7 million anyway – so they would be getting a starting pitcher for in essence $8 million.
And if the Cubs would do it – the Braves would rid themselves of $8 million in salary even if the outfield doesn’t play a game and is released.
Might be a match for 2 players who don’t fit in where they are.
November 22nd, 20098:18 pm
Steve from OH
Yes your correct about Random, wow and he thinks someone is gonna read all of that
November 22nd, 20098:19 pm
wow, some of you(random), take this blogging stuff wayyyy too seriously….
Nate from NCState
November 22nd, 20098:27 pm
I know all the speculation, and I would agree that based on last year’s performances that it would be smarter to trade Derek Lowe, who performed at a lower (pun intended) level than was expected, while Vasquez was one of the best pitchers in baseball. HOWEVER, I think long-term I would put my money on Lowe performing at a higher level, at least over the next two years, than for Vasquez to perform better or at the same level over the next couple of years.
So the debate becomes trade Vasquez (whom can only go down in performance) and get a better power hitter and bet Lowe performs better than he did previously as he has earlier in his career, or trade Lowe, for probably a worse hitter than you would have gotten before, for Vasquez, hoping he plays at least as well as he did last year.
I just think it’s a bigger bet to keep Vasquez.
LMAO. A mighty impressive gotcha, but in the words of Bill Clinton, “They spent $70 million to prove I was a sinner, and you all already knew that anyway.”
November 22nd, 20098:28 pm
Steve from OH — Your 8:13 was hilarious, and right on.
November 22nd, 20098:30 pm
Yup, you can’t get anymore disappointing then that right now.
November 22nd, 20098:34 pm
I’m offended by your reference of me and will, thus, never pitch in Atlanta. Nor will any of my siblings or other kinfolk. In fact, I think I’ll just go pitch in Japan next chance I get, where I’ll be appreciated and my fans will buy my replica jerseys.
Braveheart — Your 8:28 was hilarious too. Entertainment values on the ole blog are definitely looking up.
November 22nd, 20098:56 pm
What was it I said a week ago about Georgia fans starting to sound like Kentucky fans?
They should be so lucky.
November 22nd, 20099:07 pm
“you are deluding yourself into believing you have made a complex argument as to why Kawakami can’t be traded. Your argument is kung fu movie silly, being basically an unadulterated exploitation of superficial, antiquated stereotypes of Orientals.”
What can I say? Them’s fightin’ words.
So I fought back. With words.
Live it, or live with it.
November 22nd, 20099:46 pm
November 22nd, 20099:48 pm
That was a legendary Random post.
18 Wheels of Love
November 22nd, 20099:51 pm
One of the best Curb Your Enthusiasm’s this season. Top notch stuff. The storyline about George creating the iToilet, losing his money to Madoff, learning his divorced wife took her money out of Madoff after seeing him in a bad collared shirt, and then her asking for George to sign a pre-nupt so he can’t get his money back should they split. Classic stuff. And JLD is still hot.
November 22nd, 200910:20 pm
I liked how tipping conventions were sort of a theme for the season.
November 22nd, 200910:29 pm
Nolie -Thanks man for your ans. agree with most of it.
No to Vasquez trade for pierre.
Would love to have Gonzales but don’t trade the farm.
Nolie what do you think about Marlon Byrd?
November 22nd, 200910:31 pm
Damn RANDOM take time to breath. I never read longggggggggggggggggg blogs.
November 22nd, 200910:41 pm
Is random’s blog entry the logest ever? it certainly seemed to go on for ever with no real point,
November 22nd, 200910:58 pm
18 Wheels: No doubt about JLD. Better now than ever.
We’ll plan to get a new blog up tomorrow.
November 22nd, 200911:04 pm
“Is random’s blog entry the logest ever? it certainly seemed to go on for ever with no real point,”
I am sure Paul Lentz has surpassed that length.
November 22nd, 200911:22 pm
I have been hoping for BJ Upton, but I would certainly be ok with Crawford. Make it so, Number One.
November 22nd, 200911:28 pm
but I would certainly be ok with Crawford. Make it so, Number One. Mitchie
who is it that you expect would be included to get that done?
November 22nd, 200911:36 pm
I am no where near as much of a prospect hugger as some others on here, so to me anyone other than Heyward. So I guess the usual suspects for Crawford or Upton. Vazquez + Medlin or Freeman or Schafer or whatever. Crawford is PROVEN in MLB. Everyone else is a gamble. To me it makes sense to go with the sure bet.
November 22nd, 200911:46 pm
I got a feeling N8 has been working on one ever since Random posted that doozie a while ago, to reclaim his crown…
November 22nd, 200911:48 pm
Random vs N8?
No contest! Sorry N8
November 23rd, 200912:13 am
I seriously doubt that the Rays are gonna take on 11.5 mil pitcher for one year while having to fight the Red Sox and Yanks. Does the loss of Crawford and the addition of Javy which would mean no financial relief give them a better shot at winning against those guys. I don’t think it would. We would probably be looking at another deal of giving up prospects for a guy who hits 14 homers and gets on base at a fairly mediocre level.If Bobby won’t run a guy with an 87% success rate he isn’t likely to run a guy with an 81% rate any more so what exactly is gained by stripping our system yet again at a time when the high levels are about as thin as they have been in a good while? I guess there is nothing in such a deal that would attract me.
November 23rd, 200912:17 am
For what it’s worth here is a rumor from this eve.
Phillies trade for Heath Bell. Pads get Lidge and Blanton.
November 23rd, 200912:18 am
Exactly what I was thinking.
November 23rd, 200912:22 am
Sorry to disappoint you guys. But nope.
Nothing to rant on. I’m sure I’ll be up to the challenge once the first few dominos start falling this off-season. But right now, I’ve got nothing.
Besides, my epics never have that much “copy and paste” taking up so much of the meat of the post. And they usually have a point.
Just kidding Random.
November 23rd, 200912:28 am
Now he’s going to go off and find one of your epics with a lot of copy-and-paste in it, N8…
November 23rd, 200912:29 am
Good points, nolie. Lets drop Vazquez out of that deal. It would have to be a nice package for Crawford. One that would certainly hurt the farm. But you gotta remember, this is Bobby’s last year. After he is gone, whomever is the new manager most likely will let Nate and Carl have a green light all year. Plus, I have a feeling we might see a little different Bobby this year. Since its his last, he might change his approach. Maybe he would run more with guys like them in the lineup. Who Knows?
Anyway, if TB didnt want Javy and demanded all top prospects, I would kindly decline and give San Diego a call.
Wayne in Utah
November 23rd, 200912:30 am
I like Crawford, but if we dealt for him, it would take 2-3 big name prospects, and we would be signing him up long term (probably would be a condition of the trade).
BUT, and here is the big rub. We are WAY too lefthanded looking into the next 5 years. I know the Phillies went far being strong left handed, but it makes it too easy for a LOOGY to potentially shut you down.
If we don’t deal for a big righty this winter, I think that we are going to have to do something more drastic in a year or two to alleviate the disparity.
Coming up, we have Heyward, Schafer, Freeman, CJohnson, and Milligan. Our righties on the farm are either WAY down on the farm, or middle infielders, where we already have 2 righties.
I know somebody will show me where we hit well against left handed pitching, which I do not deny, but it doesn’t mean a team couldn’t pull out a Mike Gonzalez type to shut us down.
I saw where Random referenced me on that long azzed post. Not sure what the point was though??? I really haven’t been a part of any real discussion with him?
November 23rd, 200912:34 am
We are getting excited around here. My son comes home for 3 weeks leave in mid December. When’s the last time you saw your mother?
November 23rd, 200912:36 am
I am going to throw this out to the late night guys for thought. It has been said many times on here that the braves can’t afford to go after a big free agent bat such as Holiday and Bay. The following is an example of that statement being false.
The Braves trade Derek Lowe for a prospect(Brandon Wood lets say), but mostly for salary relief. The sign Jason Bay for 5 years and $80 million. They sign Carlos Delgado for 1 year $6 mill and they sign Jose Valverde to 2 years $16 mill or Billy Wagner 1 year $8.
Lineup: CF McLouth $4.5
2B Prado $0.5
3B Chipper $13.0
1B Delgado $6.0
C McCann $5.5
LF Bay $16
RF Heyward$0.5 Total $47 Mill
SP Hudson $9.0
SP KK $6.6
SP Jurrjens $1.0
SP Hanson $0.5 Total $28.6 Mill
OF Diaz $2.5
C Ross $1.5
U Infante $2.2
U Wood $0.5
OF Schafer$0.5 Total: $7.2
BP Medlen $0.5
BP Calero $2.5
BP Hyde $0.5 Total $16 mill
Team Total SL $47
As you can see, we could get a big bat and if Delgado reverts to form; 2 big bats. PLUS a great rotation, solid bench and very tough bullpen with a closer that is usually healthy and proven.
But, the most important point of this way of doing it is we don’t lose any of our prospects and if Wood came back, we might even gain a future replacement for Chipper(Not likely but he might be a late bloomer, he was once highly thought of).
November 23rd, 200912:39 am
I just went back home in September. My mom paid for the ticket as a birthday gift. So I kinda had too…lol. I caught some Braves games while I was home there and got caught up in all that rain and flooding that Atlanta saw. Other than that ist was a good trip.
November 23rd, 200912:51 am
If Upton could be had at a cheaper price (which he could) I would prefer to trade for him. He is still very young, cheap and has a boatload of potential. He will return to form and could be the right handed bat the Braves need. (plus the need for speed)
I can understand why nolie thinks they dont want Javy, but there are a few reasons why I think Javy would like to go there. Its alot closer to Puerto Rico, they are a contender, great manager, big time games all the time to prove his worth, Hispanic community. TB probably would not have a problem signing him longterm after next year with all things considered.
If the Braves offered Javy and Schafer for Upton, I bet they would take it. (if not for Upton, maybe for Crawford.)
November 23rd, 200912:52 am
Glad to hear it! Good to keep mama happy, cause if mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy!
I have thought in my own opinion that we could pick up one of Bay or Holliday, and it would sure solve a lot of issues. Big bat. Righthanded bat for the next 5+ years to take pressure off Heyward, etc.
I am just not sure that the Braves are thinking that way. I think Valverde might get more. Also, while Delgado might be a good one year fix, what do you do if he doesn’t come back?
I like the idea of getting one of those guys. I think sometimes, that money spent on a big bat might not be put at risk as much as similar money spent on a pitcher.
To be honest, if you were able to get a guy like Bay or Holliday, then it wouldn’t be as important who you got for first base. Maybe you could give Norton a tryout? (just kidding guys, don’t get excited)
Or, plug Prado in over there, and give KJ one more try?? (only half kidding).
November 23rd, 200912:53 am
November 23rd, 200912:57 am
Whoa Wayne, you cant make a Norton joke like that and leave!
November 23rd, 20091:06 am
Wayne in Utah: Delgado doesn’t come back -replace with Freeman, need to reduce payroll to meet arb. raises: Trade McLouth- replace with Schafer, Trade KK- replace with Medlen, don’t resign Donnelly or Calero -replace with Kimbrell. Thos moves alone would reduce payroll by $20 million
November 23rd, 20091:12 am
Wayne in Utah, Whom do you see us getting rid of in order to procure a Bay or Holliday? Even dumping Lowe’s salary doesn’t seem enough, since Bay turned down a four year deal for his annual amount. While it would be nice to have them, it hardly seems likely. Without them, what do you think we should do at first base?
Entirely unrelated. I have been listening to The Clash tonight. Have not listened to them in awhile. Just remembering why I liked them so much back in the day.
November 23rd, 20091:25 am
Omar Minaya and Newton’s Third Law of Motion | Amazin’ Avenue
November 23rd, 20091:27 am
P.W. Hjort: How about those Jackets! Are you going to the game Saturday?
November 23rd, 20091:52 am
Not “6 scrolls of my mouse” worth of copy and paste. LOL
November 23rd, 20092:48 am
To be honest, if you were able to get a guy like Bay or Holliday, then it wouldn’t be as important who you got for first base Wayne
I don’t think that is necessarily true. Neither of those guys are like to hit as well as Adan’s .957 while he was here, so if they sign Bay and get a poor first baseman that could easily be weaker than late last summer. Anyway I think there is almost no chance of them signing one of those guys. I would bet beaucoup bucks that it doesn’t happen.
Andrew in P-tang
November 23rd, 20093:02 am
get a life
November 23rd, 20093:55 am
nolie, I completely agree that one of the two big free agent bats are not in the offing. We have to accept a tier down and thus look for both a good bat at first base and the outfield. I think looking for one stellar bat at one position and a mediocre one at the other does not make sense. Better to be good throughout the lineup rather than great and then lackluster.
I think that I am speaking to myself at this point, though.
Bay Area Steve
November 23rd, 20094:30 am
Random, with the 11-page-scroll: good.
Braveheart, with the succinct, hilarious, Clinton line: better.
Who gives a flyin’ f about the financial implications, or hurt Japanese feelings, over a trade of KK that makes the Braves better: priceless.
November 23rd, 20094:32 am
Braveheart (November 22nd, 2009 8:27 pm): “LMAO. A mighty impressive gotcha”
A “gotcha”, my ass. Only a ringing defense against a base, vile canard.
And you are a worthless jackass to make me do it, and then just shrug it off when you’re proved wrong.
November 23rd, 20094:44 am
Proved wrong? Proving the unknowable is now possible? And, using seventeen quotes from an anonymous “Lamar Banks,” and other unknown, and who-knows-how-credible bloggers is the proof?
Call me, and my sub 80 IQ, dubious.
November 23rd, 20094:53 am
NSA, DEA, Defense Intelligence?
I don’t know what Random does, but this is Turkey Week. And, a guy a fair way up in the Fed probably gets the whole week off. I’m gonna do, as Anders suggested, and go find a helmet.
November 23rd, 20095:05 am
you, sir, have got some great content. I think you’re fairly new – maybe six months…
But, though I can’t say when you started, I can say when I’ve been reading. And, please keep it up. Laughing as much at your stuff than anybody’s, nowadays. And, on top of the funny, you have, what may be, the most accurate thing anybody’s ever said, in this forum: that ‘OB could repost a blog from last November, and the rest of us wouldn’t know any better. Too true, my friend. A little sad for me, I’ll admit, but spot-on.
November 23rd, 20095:08 am
Growing a bit pissed at the blog…
I’ve got a great conjugation of the word tweet that apparently won’t make it through. I mean, I’ve sworn worse than a sailor on this thing with no issues (worse than a McFann nutbag, to be certain), but try to turn tweet into a noun…
November 23rd, 20095:11 am
OK, if that made it, all I was tryin’ to do was poke at ‘OB for the twitter reference.
And, while I hate twitter even more than I hate Brett Favre (and I wasn’t sure that was possible), how cool was it that ‘OB knew McFann enough to know to post that Victorino thing? Perfect example of why this thing is what it is.
Bay Area Steve (November 23rd, 2009 4:44 am): “Proved wrong? Proving the unknowable is now possible? And, using seventeen quotes from an anonymous “Lamar Banks,” and other unknown, and who-knows-how-credible bloggers is the proof?
“Call me, and my sub 80 IQ, dubious.”
You don’t read too good, do you?
Proved wrong when he claims that”you are deluding yourself into believing you have made a complex argument as to why Kawakami can’t be traded. Your argument is kung fu movie silly, being basically an unadulterated exploitation of superficial, antiquated stereotypes of Orientals” — yeah I think that was proved wrong.
And all the quotes are from me (and Hjort (1) and Braveheart (3)) in response to other bloggers, known (Wayne, BH, Steve/OH, Rob/SC, Jeff R) and unknown.
If it’s too tough for you, just skip it.
PS: “this is Turkey Week. And, a guy a fair way up in the Fed probably gets the whole week off. “
We get one day off — Thursday. And not Friday. Friday we work again.
November 23rd, 20095:16 am
Oh, and jeffrey d,
forgot to say (and this is probably the highest praise I’ve got), you’re my new bubdylan.
Now (and this is where me bein’ an ass kicks in), I have to include the fact you’ve got nothing near the comedy that dude can bring. If I’m in the business, I’m givin’ that guy a show yesterday…
But, you’ve got a quality there, keep it up. I need a replacement. Apparently that guy’s found something constructive to do with his time. I hate when that happens.
November 23rd, 20095:29 am
Clearly, I don’t have the ability to even know what you’re arguing. I think, and respect, that one of your great skills here is focusing on a subject so narrowly that you can come out ahead. Whether this is true is doubtful, and probably just my own hope more than anything.
All I can say, and my only reason for posting on the subject, ever, is that you cannot possibly know whether KK’ll be traded. It’s not possible. Not possible. And, you, as the most literal internet person I’ve ever seen must agree.
Now, your position is clearly that he won’t. And I respect you for firmly taking that position. And, it’s probably even the right one; I wouldn’t bet, without odds, against. But, you cannot know. And to act like you can, and call others with another position whatever 140-IQ names you wanna call ‘em is BS, IMO.
And, even worse, to shift the argument is BS. Nobody (or at least me, and I’m the only one that counts) is arguing some tangential position. All we’re saying is that KK’ll be traded, if an appropriate deal is found. Just like Chipper, or Hanson, or JJ, or anybody: if the right deal is there: trade. And, I’ll grant that the Braves’ll consider marketing and Japanese influences, but again, if the right deal is there…
How can you have an opposite position? And, while I respect the hell out of you, I can’t see you taking the opposition.
November 23rd, 20097:31 am
Bay Area Steve — Your 5:29 is logical and, of course, makes sense. Unfortunately discussion with Randon can only result in heads exploding.
November 23rd, 20097:57 am
I wouldn’t cry if we got Adrian, but just remember his year-by-year numbers up until last season are almost identical to Adam Laroche’s. Is it more likely he’ll repeat an +breakout season, or is it more likely he’ll go back to being Adam’s clone?
November 23rd, 20098:35 am
OK, Random didn’t PROVE that KK won’t be traded. He did, however, prove that it makes little sense (for the Braves) in any shape, form, or fashion to even consider the idea, much less to do it without a HUGE reason (or two or three) to do so at this juncture.
November 23rd, 20099:12 am
What do you guys think about sending Riaan Spanjer-Furstenburg to the Rays along with another high level pitching prospect for Crawford?
November 23rd, 20099:19 am
November 23rd, 20099:47 am
BAS I’ve sworn worse than a sailor on this thing with no issues (worse than a McFann nutbag, to be certain)
how cool was it that ‘OB knew McFann enough to know to post that Victorino thing?
Very! And I hadn’t even posted anything in a day or two…
Crazy Trades McGee
Braves Trade Vazquez and Freeman to the Brewers
Brewers Trade Fielder to the Cubs
Cubs trade Lee to the Rangers
Rangers trade Marlon Byrd to the Rockies
Rockies trade Jorge de la Rosa to the Marlins
Marlins trade DAN UGGLA to the BRAVES
Perfection is my middle name (I mean besides “Trades”, which would make my full name Crazy Perfection Trades McGee)
November 23rd, 200910:01 am
Regarding Carl Crawford: I guess the thinking is that if you can move Lowe’s contract, you can afford to resign Crawford. Surely they would not take him as a rental and then let him walk. The cost in prospects is too high.
However, the guy is 28 and a major part of his game is speed. What if his legs begin to break down? Then you have a big contract you are stuck with. That trade also blocks Jordan Schafer, though maybe he would be part of the package headed to Florida. I doubt the Braves are ready to give up on young Jordan. He has a wealth of tools. I wonder how many stolen bases he would have if he did not bat 8th in the lineup?
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