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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
3,193 comments Add your comment
McFann Ô
November 16th, 2009
2:29 pm
No problem, Chief! I thought it was kinda odd that it hadn’t been mentioned on here yet…
Good catch, young lady.
Thanks!
And yeah, I’m school age (senior in HS, doggone it!)…but I cann still sneak over to the computer to check on these more important things every now and then.
McFann Ô
November 16th, 2009
2:30 pm
jeffrey d I think she’s playing hookie, DOB.
Naturally.
ROY’s more important than SAT-prep anyway, right?
CB
November 16th, 2009
2:31 pm
DOB, with this imaginary 20mil,could you and I have an imaginary million each? I always wanted to be rich.
David O'Brien
November 16th, 2009
2:32 pm
Hanson was a pretty distant third in the ROY voting, behind Coghlan (17 first-place votes, 105 points) and Happ (10 first-place votes, 94 points). Hanson had two first-place votes, 37 points.
The other first-place votes went to Pirates’ Andrew McCutchen (two) and Brewers’ Andrew McGehee (one).
McFann Ô
November 16th, 2009
2:34 pm
Third? 2 first place votes?
What a farce…
P'cola Brave
November 16th, 2009
2:36 pm
I’m suprised that Hanson was that far behind Happ. He basically had better stats in 40 less innings.
CB
November 16th, 2009
2:41 pm
jeffrey d, the proper spelling is hooky or hookey,I thought I would tell you before we get a 12 paragraph from Random.
P. W. Hjort
November 16th, 2009
2:41 pm
N8
I think we can agree that every situation is unique and there’s no hard and fast rule. It’s all about how far away from contention you are. If you’ve got $100 million to spend and you’ve spent $80 million to put together a 88 win team and you can acquire a 6-win player (to get to 94 wins) for $20 million/season, you do it, regardless of whether or not he occupies 20% of the payroll. If you’ve only got 80 wins out of your $80 million, adding a 6-win player to get to 86 wins isn’t that helpful, so you pass and make some trades or hope to contend with lesser pieces or give up on contending.
O.J.
November 16th, 2009
2:49 pm
Hanson only had 2 first place votes?? What kind of crap is that? Are the writers blind or something? What a farce.
bbspell22
November 16th, 2009
2:49 pm
It seems like hitters always get the nod when it comes to awards. I guess its the overall daily presence instead of the every 5th day contribution. Still cant believe he was that far back in the voting. He could have easily gone 16-3 this year. 4 NDs from when he was winning when he left, then the 2IP rainout loss in Philly. Cant wait to see Hanson have a full season next year, it should be very entertaining.
Klaus
November 16th, 2009
2:54 pm
The payroll analysis and balanced theories are interesting and rational. I am not sure I completely buy the 16+% of the payroll/player stat as being bad but its something to consider.
That said re: being a long term Braves fan and thinking long term – where is that getting us exactly?
They haven’t won a ring in 14 yrs now going into year 15. They have not been in the post season in 5yrs. 10yrs going on 11 since the last WS appearance.
During their last appearance in the post season they were eliminated in the 1st round. In the previous 2-3 post season appearance they were eliminated early.
I am all for the long view but we already have been through a stretch of mediocre baseball with small flashes of excitement: the baby braves year, Tex’s first month as a Brave, Chippers batting title in 08, good pitching in 09 and a two week 15-2 run this past September when they made things interesting (only to fade at the end).
This franchise damaged itself trying to chase flags but rarely was good enough to move past the flag phase. Even adding Tex could be considered 2/3 of an effort versus going all in to win. They lacked the pitching to win but thought Tex could get them over the top. All in would have been trading for Tex and another starter but they couldn’t or wouldn’t do it.
Water under the bridge but telling in terms of when to go all in. You go “all in” when you are a piece away from getting to the WS. In 2007 they were 2+ pieces away and they hoped Tex was enough.
In 2010 they may be a big bat away from the WS so going all in may be advisable. It could also be the Braves all in year will be 2011 or 12 but they seem close today.
In other words adding a Bay or Holliday to this club could have a greater ROI than adding Tex to the 2007 club. Perhaps.
Anyway sometimes you can ride the balanced team model and internal options out of the kind of purgatory we are in today (almost good enough for Oct) and sometimes you need to hire a difference maker.
At 95mm in payroll with too much $$$ dedicated to pitching (until Lowe is tossed) and Chipper this team will not find it hard to achieve financial balance and post season success.
They are hamstrung.
They need a Bay, Holliday, Fiedler, AGonzo but they cannot afford the salary or lack the farm system to acquire said player.
When every trade (for an impact player) requires Heyward and or Hanson you don’t have a lot of options. In other words you are not going to land a AGonzo with Freeman as the center piece of a deal or any other minor league guy.
So you are stuck with 5-1 trades which everyone hates.
With Chipper declining, LF a perpetual void, CF ok but not great and a catcher who will only be getting older and more beaten up we may need to insert a difference maker FA in the mix to get back to winning deep in the post season. If the 16% of payroll analysis is correct we need a payroll bump or to shed some bad ROI players who are consuming more payroll then they are worth.
We may be able to catch lightening a bottle going with guys like Nady, Cameron, Willingham et al but they don’t appear to be all in moves. Fans come to the ball park when you make an all in move.
Given how they stayed away in bunches even during the 15-2 run you have to be concerned about future attendance. We all know the Braves history and the fans are checking out more than they are checking in. These same fans pay the bills and buy season tickets.
Wren is in a tough spot and in the end it may turn out that only Liberty can get him out of it.
N8
November 16th, 2009
2:58 pm
Agreed P.W.
I think it’s just depends on how many other roster spots are not under contract and control.
Going into last year, we had less holes in the everyday lineup (in theory).
Mac, Chipper, Escobar, KJ, Kotchaman, Schafer and Francoeur were all locked in as starters. Wren needed to find a servicable LF. And then fill in the holes in the rotation. Even Soriano and Gonzo were both under control with contracts that weren’t that ridiculous.
He was afforded the luxury of letting Hampton, Smoltz and Glavine go and then having enough money left to trade for Vazquez, sign Lowe and sign KK (along with adding Loaf).
This year is different, imo. Way more holes to fill and less money to do it with, with other guys getting arbitration raises.
IMO, with our current payroll, and current needs/holes, it wouldn’t be good business to spend all that money on Bay or Holliday.
Now if LM would raise payroll to about 115-125 million dollars, we’d be in business. But they won’t, so we’re not.
If Wren were to go “cheap” on any portion of the roster, I would actualy prefer it to be the lineup at this point. So much of our success last year was due to that 3 headed monster in the pen. I’d hate to see us revert to Kolb/Reitsma type production in the pen and be leading or in every game, only to lose too many of them late.
nolie
November 16th, 2009
3:00 pm
Correlation doesn’t imply causation (PW)
well it can imply it, it just doesn’t prove it.
N8
November 16th, 2009
3:00 pm
Nice post Klaus. Well stated.
Jake W.
November 16th, 2009
3:02 pm
To tell you the truth I thought Hanson and Happ would basically split votes because both were so similar in numbers. Thats why I thought Coghlan would win. 1st because Coghlan did so good and second people couldn’t decide between Hanson and Happ. Happ probably got more votes because he was up longer and his team got to the playoffs but to me that is what made Hanson’s year even better. He didn’t have the help of a better team like Happ and this was truly his 1st taste of the majors and to put up the kind of numbers he did with no prior experience in the bigs was pretty good.
Having said all that though I agree that Coghlan deserved the award. Was afraid playing in Florida might go against him.
bbspell22
November 16th, 2009
3:08 pm
Lets not hold our breath on Liberty, but I agree its going to take a Big time player (besides Chipper) to get people to come to the games again. I live almost 2hrs aways from the stadium with traffic, but if they signed Bay or Holliday with the team they have now, Id be one of the first in line for 2010 season tickets. Look at Floridas club, those guys won 87 games and you could hear individual people yelling on the televised games because the place was so empty( doesnt help their stadium is way too large). But I think everyone realizes that this team is a few pieces away from being the favorites in the NL next season.
ugaaccountant
November 16th, 2009
3:11 pm
N8 November 16th, 2009 2:22 pm
In your opinion, is the team better off signing Jason Bay for 20 million per year, and LaRoche for 9 million and then filling the closer, setup guy and RF with the remaining 1 million dollars?
Or would Wren be better off going after 5 mid-range guys capable of helping this team on a nightly basis, yet probably not going to any All-Star games anytime soon?”
5 midrange guys leaves us in the same position – out of playoffs, unless we get the right 5 guys. You grab Ordonez, Wagner, Nady, Church and cheap setup guy and we miss the playoffs in my opinion. The 3 expensive pieces are all names i’ve seen here often and all 3 are terrible ideas. All 3 carry significant injury risk, and that’s why they are available at middle salaries. But here’s the big problem, when 1 or 2 of them get injured, we won’t have any money left to replace them.
That’s why in this case if the right player were available, we could look to shore that position up for the long term. We need someone who is healthy and plays 1b, a position people usually continue to stay healthy, and that is a clear cleanup hitter. Adrian Gonzalez, if the trade price was right, could easily be that guy if he extended his contract.
Bay and Holliday are not worth it. More risky and less productive than I’d want at 20M a season. Miguel Cabrera, prior to his personal life meltdown, was worthy in the past. Tex would have been worthy.
Anyway, I think when you start with 20 roster spots already figured out, the remaining 5 could allocate most of the money to 1 guy, if that guy is your cleanup hitter. No SP should be as much of the payroll as Lowe is, which is why I want him traded. If he only cost 10M a season, I’d like him a lot, but at 15M he’s keeping us from having a cleanup hitter.
nolie
November 16th, 2009
3:12 pm
This franchise damaged itself trying to chase flags but rarely was good enough to move past the flag phase
I didn’t post the blogger’s name cause I’m not picking on this particular poster, but that is a pretty stupid thought that is posited here sometimes by others too. No team chases flags, they chase an opportunity to win it all which they can’t do without getting into the playoffs. After you get there it is pretty much a crap shoot as the Cards of a few years ago and several WC teams have proven. Even the weaker teams CAN win it.No team is gonna pass up what they see as a chance at the brass ring because they think they won’t be the best team on the merry-go-round.Get real folks.
richbrave
November 16th, 2009
3:13 pm
O.K. WAYNE, beyond 2010 noted. After two bypasses and six stents with more on the horizon, I however, am just looking at 2010.
richbrave
November 16th, 2009
3:15 pm
Oh yeah, I remember “capture the flag.” Did that twice at summer camp in 1953. Speedy Gonzalez, beep, beep!!!!
ugaaccountant
November 16th, 2009
3:17 pm
N8 – to continue Klaus’s comments – I speaking personally, will not be showing up at the Ted to watch our new mediocre bullpen acquisitions. If we don’t acquire a cleanup hitter, I’ll continue to be a fan who watches for free on TV. I’m not paying to see .500 baseball.
P'cola Brave
November 16th, 2009
3:17 pm
If we were to move Lowe’s 15 mil how much would that leave us to spen
Daybed Wagmoe
November 16th, 2009
3:18 pm
Jeff Francouer, Jair Jurrjens, Tommy Hanson…
Braves rookies are #3!
richbrave
November 16th, 2009
3:19 pm
richbrave: I think some of your comments this morning just traveled through a time warp.
Hey, DAVE it’s RICHMOND/W&M week. Anything goes!!!!
ugaaccountant
November 16th, 2009
3:19 pm
Hanson may have lost this small battle, but he’ll win the war wover Coghlan in the long run.
jeffrey d
November 16th, 2009
3:20 pm
Third? 2 first place votes? What a farce… McFann
Hanson only had 2 first place votes?? …What a farce. O.J.
McFann = OJ?
P'cola Brave
November 16th, 2009
3:21 pm
ugaaccountanta I agree. I think in the long run Hanson will be more productive.
McFann Ô
November 16th, 2009
3:21 pm
O.J. What a farce.
Copy cat!
richbrave Oh yeah, I remember “capture the flag.”
Oh lordy…we try to play things like that at family get-togethers sometimes…usually ends up with each team captains having their own set of rules. Shouting ensues and all that. Course my, brother, sister, and I play it safe–just stand there with our mouths shut.
P'cola Brave
November 16th, 2009
3:25 pm
Does anyone know the day that FA can sign with other teams??
P. W. Hjort
November 16th, 2009
3:25 pm
well it can imply it, it just doesn’t prove it. (nolie)
Technically correct, but the phrase is a piece of statistical rhetoric. The correct statement is: Correlation is not equal to causation; it is only a requirement for it. In practice, however, the statement: correlation does not imply causation is taken to mean what I previously quoted: correlation is not equal to causation; it is only a requirement for it
rtrafford
November 16th, 2009
3:26 pm
the ROY voting between Happ and Hanson had nothing to do with “who was the better pitcher”, rather “who played a more important role for his team”.
easily Happ was more important to leading a terrible staff to the playoffs…well, to a second half addition of Lee and Pedro…
jeffrey d
November 16th, 2009
3:28 pm
the ROY voting between Happ and Hanson had nothing to do with “who was the better pitcher”, rather “who played a more important role for his team”.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think ROTY just means who the best rookie was, not who played a more important role. That’s more along the lines of MVP.
Venice Jim
November 16th, 2009
3:29 pm
richbrave – will that be your generic excuse this week if anyone questions you?
Chris
November 16th, 2009
3:31 pm
having hanson well behind happ is horrible. yes, happ pitched well this year, but he is no where near the pitcher hanson is. the phillies did not trust him in the playoffs, and a few of wins were from coming out of the pen!!! i would have picked the two pirates rookies over happ! on another note, congrats to the rookie of the year winners, especially andrew bailey. i thought he might have been unnoticed, but he wasnt, thank goodness. he was lights out this year for oakland.
McFann Ô
November 16th, 2009
3:32 pm
jeffrey d McFann = OJ?
Haha! No way!
richbrave
November 16th, 2009
3:33 pm
DAVID:
I concur. Pass it along to the management will you? We’re in agreement – for once.
Chris
November 16th, 2009
3:33 pm
jeffrey d- i think mvp and roty are debatable for alot people. some see it as most valuable for their team, or with the best numbers for the entire league.
Wayne in Utah
November 16th, 2009
3:34 pm
ugaaccountant
Having never lived in or near Atlanta, I would love to be in your shoes. With the economy being in a recession, I suspect I will go to less Utah Jazz games this year. I usually go to about 5-6 per season (out of 41 home games) and if we can get a decent ticket, and I am in town, a playoff game or two.
To say you will not go to see your team, if you perceive them to be a .500 team, to me shows that you are not a true fan. I would call that a fair weather fan. Some folks love the Braves, and go no matter what. Some go less, as that’s all they can afford. No problem there. But for those that call themselves fans, and then have the nerve to say they wouldn’t go if we don’t improve here or there, well, I have no use for you then. You are not a true fan. You are a “pre-madonna” type fan. Got to have it your way, or I’m not going.
That sure sounded petty when I read it. If you had said, due to losing my job, I won’t be going to any games this year. OK. Your reason. Not OK.
You really don’t know how fortunate you are to be close enough to be able to go at will.
Not lucid
November 16th, 2009
3:37 pm
well it can imply it, it just doesn’t prove it. (nolie)
Technically correct, but the phrase is a piece of statistical rhetoric. The correct statement is: Correlation is not equal to causation; it is only a requirement for it. In practice, however, the statement: correlation does not imply causation is taken to mean what I previously quoted: correlation is not equal to causation; it is only a requirement for it (PWH)
Man, you guys really need some news to talk about… really…
Not lucid
November 16th, 2009
3:38 pm
… or girlfriends…
Not lucid
November 16th, 2009
3:38 pm
… kidding… I kid…
David O'Brien
November 16th, 2009
3:38 pm
O.J. — I don’t have a problem with the two first-place votes (because as I said, I would’ve voted for Coghlan to win). It’s the lack of second-place and third-place votes that I’m surprised by. I mean, only six writers voted him second and nine voted him third (in addition to the two first-place votes).
That means 15 of 32 writers didn’t think he belonged in the top three. That’s difficult to understand. He’s gotta be in top three, in my view.
(Happ was the only guy named on all 32 ballots, by the way. SEVEN voters didn’t have Coghlan in the top three. Huh?)
nolie
November 16th, 2009
3:39 pm
Technically correct, (PW)
yeah I know,I’m aware of the phrase, I was just being a smart aleck.
Most folks who are not stat savvy do assume that correlation implies causation though , that’s why we get all those type of comments.
richbrave
November 16th, 2009
3:39 pm
VJ:
DUDE, whadup? Good luch saturday. WILLIAMSBURG is gonna’ need it. Got cheap seat tickets to the game. My wife’s student has been begging all season for us to attend. This is the week.
Excuses? I have none, and don’t need any. Just been cutting up to stir the old blog a bit today. Add a few in the comment section for our blogmeister. More hits looks good to the AJC you know.
Don’t expect RICHMOND to be looking past W&M this week. This is the final stop. We’ll be ready to play.
Chris
November 16th, 2009
3:46 pm
those 32 writers have no idea when it comes to happ. period. no reason for any of those writers to pick happ higher than coghlan, none.
rtrafford
November 16th, 2009
3:47 pm
happ in the post season doesn’t matter as votes are in prior to those games.
hanson wins if the braves had made the playoffs. Cogs got more votes due to his everyday status. Happ is certainly NOT a better pitcher than Hanson, but he certainly played a bigger role for his team through the course of the season. even without Hanson, the Braves still had a very good and very deep staff. Without Happ the philth are in third place and may never make the Cliff Lee deal…
rtrafford
November 16th, 2009
3:51 pm
I disagree that Happ didn’t deserve any 1st place votes. He was a very critical piece of the puzzle for the philth through the summer! Opponents were hitting .300 against Hamels and Moyer, Kendrick was terrible, and Bastardo was very inconsistent if not injured.
rtrafford
November 16th, 2009
3:52 pm
That’s wild, that 7 writers didn’t carry Cogs on their ballots…must have had Hanson and Happ as well as one of the other candidates…crazy stuff!
Klaus
November 16th, 2009
3:53 pm
Watching the Braves since the 80s I can say they did get division focused. More so when the “economics of baseball” speech by JS came out and they had to.
This is not unique to the Braves and make no mistake GMs/owners discuss this model when it comes to P&L discussions.
It isn’t a silly idea it actually is a strategy some teams employ. It keeps attendance up, contains expenses and improves profits for a time.
Eventually you need to either step it up sacrificing short term margins or you retool and start the process over again.
In fact if teams like the Yankees, Sox and other big market teams continue to expand payrolls it may be employed but more teams. Can you blame them.
BTW -There actually was an article about this approach in the Boston Globe last week. The broader context of the piece was a Boras rant on how GMs/Owners are getting greedy with revenue sharing and not putting the money back into their teams.
GMs have to make P&L decisions every season and they know if they are shooting for a WS shot or a quality product that may win the division.
We may view it as chance but they spend millions on players and pour over tons of stats to take some of the dumb luck out of the equation.
18 Wheels of Love
November 16th, 2009
3:53 pm
Some people need their voting privileges revoked.
Soph
November 16th, 2009
4:08 pm
VJ – how did you and cab fare in your NFL picks this past week?
Venice Jim
November 16th, 2009
4:09 pm
richbrave – if our defense plays as well as they did against New Hampshire, we might have a decent shot at you – I just looked at the Coaches’ Poll, and UR and W&M are tied for 4th… Fortunately, I will be able to give it my full concentration since I do not have to deal with anything trivial like being at the USC-Stanford game this past weekend…
nolie
November 16th, 2009
4:16 pm
Watching the Braves since the 80s I can say they did get division focused. More so when the “economics of baseball” speech by JS came out and they had to.
BS, there is no such thing as division focused except in the heads of fans. I can guarantee that I never worked for a team that was only trying to win their division except as a step to a possible playoff victory. Once there any team can win and any team worth their salt will think that they have an opportunity to win.
As several GMs including John S, Beane and Epstein have said in so many words…you can build a team to get to the playoffs, once there all bets are off.
Your thoughts are media/fan rationales for not winning.
Anybody who can’t appreciate winning year after year at any level needs to go be a Pirates fan. They were a very good team for almost as long as the Braves were, but haven’t had a winning record of any kind in what? 18 years?
What you are saying is not the mind set of any MLB team, and I think DOB will agree if he sees this.They will take any chance they see to get into the playoffs cause that gives then an opportunity to win it all, and you never know for sure when that opportunity will present itself again no matter how good your plans are.
In baseball as life, reality is what happens while you are busy making plans. If it was that easy to pick your spots, teams with unlimited finances would win every year.
Venice Jim
November 16th, 2009
4:17 pm
Soph – fortunately for me, Peyton Manning (and a certain New England coach) gave me a one point lead, so if the Ravens win tonight I win by three, and, if not, by one…
nolie
November 16th, 2009
4:23 pm
no team in baseball has ever said “we think we can get to the playoffs this season, but we are gonna pass on that opportunity because MAYBE that will give us a better team in the future and thus PERHAPS a better chance in the future to win it all IF all our plans work out perfectly and we can actually make the playoffs at all.
But hey you are welcome to believe whatever you want about what successful GMs and teams think
Soph
November 16th, 2009
4:24 pm
VJ – that game was something else. 4th & 2 in your own territory. Who would’ve thunk it? At least it worked out in your favor.
Klaus
November 16th, 2009
4:24 pm
Do you work or have you ever worked for a club? I don’t but I do financial analysis and profitability simulation work all the time. This is employed by clubs in both leagues.
I didn’t say they want to stop at a division win but they plan around that possibility and make decisions based on the risk/return of achieving it.
This is very common so I am not sure where you are getting the 180 position. In fact the reverse is true and its not a fan based view.
We have to disagree on this but its not uncommon. In fact for many clubs it provides them an annuity stream of income they are happy to renew each year.
The caveat would be the driven/individual owner who is all about winning and wanting a ring every year. They manage to a very different level of risk/reward tolerance.
T
Duke
November 16th, 2009
4:28 pm
“SEVEN voters didn’t have Coghlan in the top three. Huh?” DOB.
That makes the least amount of sense since OJ walked
Venice Jim
November 16th, 2009
4:29 pm
Soph – we didn’t even realize until it was over that it clinched it for me, so she was rooting for Peyton…
Klaus
November 16th, 2009
4:37 pm
Caveat – this position is from the corporate or owner side. Many GMs by in large are not check signers. They present a case for team investment but in the end its someone else’s call (President, CEO, Board, Owner etc).
The check signers so to speak employ this approach. ROA, ROI, ROE etc when making budget decisions for a club.
Venice Jim
November 16th, 2009
4:37 pm
Soph – sorry there’ll be no Michael Turner against the Giants…
cabravesfan
November 16th, 2009
4:39 pm
“anything trivial like being at the USC-Stanford game this past weekend”
Really? You didn’t have to go
(and I was rooting for Peyton because a) I like him and b)I don’t like the Pats (or Brady…or Bill…)
TnBrian
November 16th, 2009
4:40 pm
Yeah, because so many of these ROY winners have gone on to be superstar HOF players. Only Justice got that award out of all the players Atlanta had through the run of the 90’s. Oh, and Furcal in 2000. Check out the winners of this award through the last 20 years… Pat Listach, Todd Hollandsworth, Scott Williamson(who the fu** is that?), Ben Grieve(again, who the fu** is that?). Boy, poor Hanson won’t amount to much in his big league career now, these voters know their sh**. Darn.
bravito199
November 16th, 2009
4:41 pm
From Baseball America
“Lefthander Brett DeVall, the Braves’ first pick in the 2008 draft, had an arthroscopic procedure on his elbow but should be ready for spring training. DeVall has struggled with discomfort in his forearm and elbow since signing with Atlanta”
TnBrian
November 16th, 2009
4:42 pm
Can’t forget the famous Marty Cordova in ‘95. Remember how great he turned out to be… or not.
CB
November 16th, 2009
4:44 pm
cabravesfan, I remember when you were so happy when VT lost and USC moved ahead of them in the rankings? What say now,girlfriend?
cabravesfan
November 16th, 2009
4:49 pm
CB-
It was nothing personal against VT- It was just helpful to USC
CB
November 16th, 2009
4:52 pm
O.J.
November 16th, 2009
4:54 pm
DOB, yeah, I dont mind that Coghlan won, he deserved it, but like you said, the fact that Tommy didnt even finish in the top 3 is what baffles me the most.
nolie
November 16th, 2009
4:54 pm
yes I worked for several clubs, and none of them passed up what they thought was a good shot at a pennant so they MIGHT be better in the future. No team which has the financial ability to do what they want to-like the Braves through the run that we are discussinf-is gonna take that kind of chance on the future against what they see as a realistic chance to make the playoffs. Some financially strapped teams obviously have to try to build up to it, and the fact that the Fish actually got lucky twice using that approach makes it seem more workable than it is. But the Braves were an already built team that reloaded successfully every year, it is not the same thing at all. There is a difference between using that approach because you have to and choosing to use it with an established winning team. Every year they made the playoffs meant another opportunity to go all the way. The fact that they didn’t get there might be calling to many but it does not mean they should have used another approach. FCS, the Yanks have has a team full of superstars for this entire decade and just won one. .If you get there, you might win. If you don’t, you won’t have any chance at all. So making it sound like their choice was to just be satisfied to win the division is just not true to the reality.
With the competitive levels in MLB,it’s impossible to believe that a successful team in the middle of a long run that sees another chance again is gonna decide to pass up that opportunity in the hopes that they can win it all in the following year.What if am important goes down that following year? Such things happen all the time.
Your scenario might work for teams with little reasonable chance, but it isn’t gonna apply to teams already in the midst of repeated success. To think so is naive at the least.
Sorry. I’m gonna hafta go, so I guess you are right. We can agree to disagree.:)
Daslied
November 16th, 2009
4:55 pm
Or Bobby Higgenson (sp?). He won ROY, right? Or was that Bob Hamelin?
Venice Jim
November 16th, 2009
4:58 pm
CB – the most memorable moment of my day at the Coliseum occurred while tailgating before the game – a maintenance guy driving a golf cart managed to get stuck in reverse while moving, taking out part of our setup (and grazing cab’s brother’s knee) before slamming into the setup behind us and coming to a stop.
RHR
November 16th, 2009
5:01 pm
McFann is home-schooled, right? I always just assumed that. None of my business really.
nolie
November 16th, 2009
5:02 pm
(Klaus)
one more quick thought B4 I go, Oakland has basically used the approach that you are suggesting for a number of years. It has not worked out well for them at all. I’ll check back later for comments. Sorry if I sounded a bit too intense,with my health my BP goes up when I get ardent about something.
keylargo
November 16th, 2009
5:04 pm
Did anyone see “The Prisoner” last night? I’m going to Tivo the original episode tonight at 6 pm and the second episode at 8 pm on AMC, but I haven’t seen anything that says it’s anything special.
Nolie, here’s a review I found on it:
http://www.miamiherald.com/277/story/1331837.html?storylink=omni_popular
Daslied
November 16th, 2009
5:07 pm
It was Bob Hamelin. Walt Weiss won ROY??
ugaaccountant
November 16th, 2009
5:09 pm
wayne in utah – I 100% agree i’m a fairweather fan of the Braves. I don’t take that as an insult. I owe nothing to a professional sports team, just as they owe nothing to me. I pay if they put out a product I like. I do not pay if they put out an inferior product.
I actually attended more Gwinnett Braves games last year, as their on field product was playoff bound and their ease of attending, low pricing and close to the action atmosphere were very acceptable. So even though the players aren’t as good, they were worth seeing multiple times a season.
So yep, proudly a fairweather fan. I come to the blog mainly to have fun talking numbers since Baseball is full of number crunching. Baseball is only one of a large number of sports I watch, and is far from my favorite.
This is the point i’m trying to make. The average person in the stand is not a die-hard fan. May be true in some cities, but the Braves just aren’t that way.
Wayne in Utah
November 16th, 2009
5:18 pm
ugaaccountant
Hey, no problem. At least I know who I am talking with on the blog. I would have thought more folks on here are more of a life long type fans. Maybe I was mistaken. Actually, the way some rant and rave about every little thing during the season, maybe that shouldn’t surprise me either.
Either way, I am in it for the long run. A fan since 1966. A fan till I die.
I do appreciate your candor though.
Wayne in Utah
November 16th, 2009
5:20 pm
One little minor league deal…..anything…..just something to discuss…..a player to look up and analyze…..come on Frank……were dying out here!
Steve from OH
November 16th, 2009
5:20 pm
Interview with Rays’ GM Andrew Freidman:
http://www.draysbay.com/2009/11/16/1157546/tampa-bay-rays-gm-andrew-friedman
BravesfaninWis
November 16th, 2009
5:20 pm
That’s alright on the Hanson ROY loss, we Braves fans know exactly what he means to our team, and he was the best rookie IMO even though he didn’t win the actual award.
P. W. Hjort
November 16th, 2009
5:22 pm
THE WIRE – 100 Greatest Quotes | Youtube
N8
November 16th, 2009
5:24 pm
“no team in baseball has ever said “we think we can get to the playoffs this season, but we are gonna pass on that opportunity because MAYBE that will give us a better team in the future and thus PERHAPS a better chance in the future to win it all IF all our plans work out perfectly and we can actually make the playoffs at all.” nolie
Now, nolie. You know I don’t like to argue with you (wink). But this next question is a serious one, not smartassy or sarcastic.
Say Wren determined Peavy would have certainly put us in the playoffs last year, should he have given up Hanson for him?
Same with Heyward this year. Maybe Heyward starts the year on the 25 man roster, maybe he never sees the bigs this year (doubtful). But if say, Boston was willing to trade Youkilis for him (Heyward), giving the Braves a serious weaspon, or Milwuakee with Prince Fielder… do you do it?
Or are those guys (Hanson and Heyward) in a different league when it comes to decisions like that, because they are sooooo close to helping the team themselves, and in the case of Hanson vs. Peavy, arguably legitimately have a BETTER chance at helping the club, with Peavy’s health issues?
Like I said. Not being a smartass, just looking for some insight from somebody with the inside angle on how a GM and a team might view “now” with an established star, and the future (which might be less than a season), with a rising star.
I’m TOTALLY on board with giving up an Elvis Andrus or a Feliz for a guy like Tex or Wainwright and Marquis for JD Drew. But the fact that it didn’t work with Tex or Drew, AND we didn’t retain either of them, makes me a bit gunshy as a fan to sign off and support such trades.
Nobody knew what Hanson would do last year. But we all thought he had it in him to help out. And he did. So you can imagine how irrate fans would have been had Wren included him in a deal for Peavy. That would have been disaster, imo. For the present AND the future.
itcouldbeworse
November 16th, 2009
5:24 pm
ugaaccountant,
I am a life long LA Clipper fan…)grew up in LA my family is from ATL and my grandfather would take me to games at Fulton county every summer when we would come visit so thats how I became a Braves fan)…if our fans had your view the staples center would be even more empty then it is now. I understand wanting to see a good product but a fan supports a team in all times not just good. Now that I live in GA I go to the games as much as possible because it is great to get to see my team at home instead of at Dodger stadium. To each there own though I guess…To wayne in utah…I hate that you get to follow a nba team that is always in the playoffs. I have no idea what that is like.
N8
November 16th, 2009
5:30 pm
ugaaccountant, I think you are selling yourself short as a Braves fan, by calling yourself “fairweather” for only spending money and your time closely following them when they are winning.
To me that’s just making them earn your support, and doing what most fans should do when they are upset at their teams….. walk away for awhile and take a break. Only to come back at a later date with their batteriies and enthusiasm recharged.
To me, a fairweather fan would be somebody who LOVED the Braves in the 80’s when they were winning, then chose another team to follow in the late 80’s, only to return with all the garb and bumper stickers and hoopla in the early 90’s stating they’ve’ “always” been a huge Braves fan (or any team in any sport).
Some might call that a bandwagon jumper. But to me it’s the same.
I’ve got a buddy up here where I live that two years ago said he’s done watching the Braves until Bobby is gone, and he wasn’t lying. Didn’t pay one iota of attention to them last year. Barely knew who Tommy Hanson was. But has chosen to get into the Twins more recently.
I suspect when Bobby retires, he’ll come back. Or maybe when the Twins stink, he’ll come crawling back. But I’ve never considered him a fairweather fan, because if that was the case, he would have been back this year. He’s just sticking to his guns.
But in this day and age, who can blame you for going to watch the AAA games? Cheaper, good young talent, playoff bound, etc… Nothing to be ashamed of there my friend.
Wayne in Utah
November 16th, 2009
5:33 pm
itcouldbeworse
And Jordan PUSHED OFF!!! It was a foul!!!
But, I hear what your saying. I am thankful for the Jazz and their long history of being competitive. I also love BOTH my managers/coaches. Bobby Cox and Jerry Sloan. Both are throw backs….and I admire them both.
Wayne in Utah (Jordan pushed off!)
November 16th, 2009
5:36 pm
Sorry Nate, but a fan is someone who is “fanatical” about their team. I think ugaaccountant just likes the Braves. He really is not a fan of the Braves, in the truest sense of the word. Not a slam at all, but just the way a fan is defined.
P'cola Brave
November 16th, 2009
5:39 pm
A true fan is someone who sticks by their team no matter the circumstances.
CB
November 16th, 2009
5:42 pm
VJ,you did call your lawyer I hope.
McFann Ô
November 16th, 2009
5:50 pm
RHR–
Yep! I sure am.
Bobby's Cox
November 16th, 2009
5:56 pm
itcouldbeworse
A Brave and Clipper fan? I thought I was the only one. That revelation made my day.
Gary O
November 16th, 2009
5:56 pm
DOB,
To avoid any further confusion, I will no longer post as O’Brien. I assume that means you are more likely to answer a question/reply to a comment from me…
Bobby's Cox
November 16th, 2009
5:56 pm
And apparently I’m not in mid-season form with the all bold post. Sigh.
cabravesfan
November 16th, 2009
5:58 pm
Wait…there are actually 2 Clippers fans on the blog?? I’m worried…
David O'Brien
November 16th, 2009
5:59 pm
Gary O: Yes, far more likely. And thanks.
Bobby's Cox
November 16th, 2009
6:00 pm
Venice Jim,
So you stroll into town weather turns Artic. Go figure. And, USC loses more games by more points than they have in the last IDK, 15 seasons combined? Is cabraves trying to send you back yet?
Love the new name btw…
Bobby's Cox
November 16th, 2009
6:02 pm
cabraves,
Next time you have more suite tickets for any Staples event, just go ahead and send them my way. No need to have a first-come-first serve thing on facebook
Braveheart
November 16th, 2009
6:02 pm
Wayne, Jordan did indeed push off on that play, and Hakeem hacked Starks
Lew
November 16th, 2009
6:02 pm
I’ve watched every game (or damn near) for over 30 years. When my son was born in Athens, we lived in married housing. They supplied free cable at the time and TBS re-broadcast the game in the middle of the night. There were many nights when I had to get up with the baby, I’d watch the TBS telecast for the second time. They were pretty pitiful in 1979 and 80.
If they win or if they lose, I’ll still watch every game. Glad I can get MLB Extra Innings and I take full advantage of it.
ugaaccountant
November 16th, 2009
6:02 pm
itcouldbeworse – Agreed with your name, my support could be worse. I go to an ocassional Hawks or Thrashers game, but only if someone else invites me. At least with the Braves, I invite people to go to the games.
I think my total attended games this year was 5, but if the Braves were divisional leaders, I’d probably make 1 game a week. But under no circumstance am I going to be at all 81 home games, I just don’t have that kind of time, especially when you consider all the other sporting events in the area or on TV.