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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
3,193 comments Add your comment
O.J.
November 11th, 2009
1:45 pm
P-Town, and what would we do with Villanueva?
Daslied
November 11th, 2009
1:45 pm
P-Town, I lump him in with Marlon Byrd, Marco Scutaro and Russell Branyan – guys over 30 coming off career years. I smell a bit of Gary Matthews, Jr. on the lot of them.
Steve from OH
November 11th, 2009
1:45 pm
Wayne–that would probably be a good deal for a team that has needs that Figgins fits.
Steve from OH
November 11th, 2009
1:46 pm
Remember that just last year, Figgins slugged a Gregor Blanco-esqe .318.
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
1:48 pm
Wayne,
Very cool. There is a BlackBird at the Air Force Armament Museum back home in Florida. I have never seen one fly.
One of the coolest things I have ever seen was when I was like 13 or 14, my dad checked me out of school to go to Eglin AFB where he worked. He didnt tell me why the whole time. We parked the car across the street from the runway and about 15 minutes later, the Space Shuttle being piggy-backed on a 747 came in and landed.
By far one of the coolest things I have ever seen.
http://www.altushs1965.com/space_shuttle_discovery,altusafb,20050819/shuttle_discovery,altusafb,ok,20050819-2,piggyback,right-side2.jpg
Daslied
November 11th, 2009
1:48 pm
Oh, and P-Town? Any trade that can rid Lowe’s $45MM is fine with me. I should clarify that I like the guy, and won’t be sad if he stays. But I’d rather that cash go to someone like Holliday.
P. W. Hjort
November 11th, 2009
1:49 pm
Someone give BAS a medal for that performance last night.
P-Town Brave
November 11th, 2009
1:50 pm
Daslied-
I feel the same way. I’d rather trade Kawakami myself, but I know that the quickest way to a Bay or Holliday is to get rid of Lowe’s contract.
I like Lowe and think he will do alright next year, BUT I’m just not sure we get to where we want to be with him in Atlanta next year.
I could be wrong, and thats whats so great about this time of year…well, that and college basketball
Steve from OH
November 11th, 2009
1:51 pm
Someone should give BAS’s liver a medal for withstanding that performance last night…
P-Town Brave
November 11th, 2009
1:53 pm
Here’s another interesting thought brought up:
Would you rather go out and get the big signing (ie Holliday or Bay) OR get a few pieces and build the best possible 25 man roster you can without making a big splash?
Crazy Trades McKnee
November 11th, 2009
1:55 pm
Joey Votto. Enough said.
O'Brien
November 11th, 2009
1:55 pm
DOB,
For what its worth, I saw “Law abiding citizen” (with Jamie Foxx) yesterday, and I enjoyed it.
I hope Wren is able to trade Lowe, but with his contract, his age, and the kind of year he had, who would want to trade a 25-30 HR outfielder or first baseman for him?
Thats why as much I would prefer to keep Vazquez, the reality is he is our most valuable trade piece, so I will not be surprised or angry if he gets traded. The key will be what did we get in return.
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
2:00 pm
I stand by my prediction that both Lowe and Vazquez will be traded!
tr
November 11th, 2009
2:00 pm
beekay @ 1:37
A friend who works with the Braves as a trainer watched him play most of the season and says it won’t be long before he’s mlb-ready. Studly, for sure!
O.J.
November 11th, 2009
2:02 pm
Mitchie-san, no way on earth they trade both, not happening, and I would be willing to bet on it.
N8
November 11th, 2009
2:05 pm
I think a guy like Jo-Jo can still be a commodity for this team. Now, do I think he’ll ever be anything more than a 5th starter, or a long man/spot starter? More than likely not.
But he’s cheap, under control and literally has zero trade value. Why not keep him?
There are guys you build your franchise around (Hanson) and are willing to trade guys or not call up guys (Glavine) in order to make space for them on your 25 man roster. Truly special guys.
Then there are guys that just simply take longer to develope and you might only get 1 or 2 years out of them, and that may not be until they’ve spent 3, 4 or even 5 years in the minors.
Look at a guy like Buddy Carlisle or Campillo? Or in years past, Pete Smith or Mike Bileki (sp?).
Who’s to say that Jo-Jo doesn’t spend most of 2010 in the minors with a few callups in emergency situations, and then has an adequate season in 2011 as the 5th starter?
If you can’t get any value in a trade for a guy, you might as well hang on to them on the chance that they can help you out in any capacity down the road.
Superstars sell tickets and set the foundation for sustained winning. Role players (like utility guys, bench guys, 4th outfielders, 5th starters and middle relievers) are the unsung heros on championship teams. Having strong role players is seperates the good teams from the elite teams.
The hardest part of a GM/Manager is determining who is a star in the making and a guy destined to be a role player. If Wren were to force Jo-Jo into the 5th spot of the rotation Jo-Jo’s results may be much worse than if he was coming in out of the pen and getting the occasional injury start or starting the 2nd game of a double-header.
Wren and the Braves don’t need to give up on a guy like Jo-Jo, they just might need to give up on him ever being the impact starter they thought he could be a few years ago.
P-Town Brave
November 11th, 2009
2:06 pm
Ok, so in this two hour radio show I’ve listened to, they’ve talked about the following players:
Dye
Guererro
Cameron
Nady
Atkins
LaRoche
Wagner
Bay
Figgins
Funny I not once heard Holliday’s name.
How would you rank these players?
Scuba Steve
November 11th, 2009
2:10 pm
DOB…Joan from Mad Men looks like my wife…love them red heads!
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
2:11 pm
O.J.
I am not willing to bet. But, what GM wouldnt want to clear 45 mil in payroll and trade for a stud outfielder whle still having a solid rotation?
Steve from OH
November 11th, 2009
2:12 pm
Would you rather go out and get the big signing (ie Holliday or Bay) OR get a few pieces and build the best possible 25 man roster you can without making a big splash?
Depends how many players you are away from contending.
(In our case, I’m thinking “big splash”)
Random
November 11th, 2009
2:15 pm
P-Town Brave (November 11th, 2009 12:51 pm): “EVERY guy on this radio show I’m listening to talk about the Braves says its not even worth acquiring a leadoff hitter or base stealer til Bobby leaves because Bobby doesn’t play ABC baseball and steal any bases.
“So apparently I’m not the only one…”
No, the sturdy common sense of ignorance and prejudice is unfortunately not unique to you.
By the way, I never saw your response to this comment of mine on the first page of this blog.
Perhaps these excerpts will refresh your memory:
I’ll ask you again — What is the most significant difference between all those different Bobby Cox teams (ie, the five who averaged 142+ SBs per season and the five who averaged 60 SBs per season)? The roster.
What is the one constant between all those different Bobby Cox teams? Bobby Cox.
You would have to be a true igmo to simply say that “Bobby doesn’t run!”
If Cox has basestealers on base, he’ll let them steal bases. Otherwise, not.
It’s that simple
But now what you’re saying is that “Bobby doesn’t run NOW! Its as simple as that.” And you offer as evidence ‘01, ‘03, ‘06-’09.
But it’s still not that simple. Not at all.
Let’s go over the Braves’ five seasons under Cox with the most SBs and five seasons with the least SBs, and compare rosters.
[Raw data omitted here, but available at the linked comment.]
Okay, so tell me now — who on the past half dozen Braves rosters could compare to Otis Nixon, Ron Gant, Deion Sanders or even Reggie Sanders as far as stealing bases? Furcal? Who else? Who all has Cox kept leashed on the base paths in the last six or so years? Who this season did Cox not allow to steal bases who was able to?
Who has Cox had on his roster the last half dozen years or so who had the base stealing capabilities of even Quilvio Veras, Marcus Giles, Brian Jordan or Jeff Blauser?
Cox uses the players he’s given to the best of their abilities. Those abilities of late have not included base-stealing for the most part.
It’s as simple as that.
Oh, and as to your implied assertion that the Braves need to run more, I offer the following:
In the Braves’ five highest stolen base seasons under Cox, when they averaged 142+ SBs per season, only twice did they manage to score 800 runs (averaging ~770 Runs per season).
In the Braves’ five lowest stolen base seasons under Cox, when they averaged only 60 SBs per season, only twice did they fail to score 800 runs (averaging 810+ Runs per season).
Did you get that, space boy? For five seasons, an average of 142+ SBs led to an average of 770- runs. For another five seasons, an average of 60 SBs led to an average of 810+ runs.
And if it’s really your contention that “Bobby doesn’t run NOW!” (as opposed to ‘91-’00), why did you so conveniently omit ’02, ’04 and ’05, when the Braves stole 76, 86 and 92 bases? Didn’t fit your curve, hmmmmm?
You should start paying attention better, don’t you think? Instead of manipulating data to fit your sturdy common sense.
beekay
November 11th, 2009
2:15 pm
tr
He is awful young but just goes to show that our farm is pretty loaded. We gave up alot for Tex but we still got alot more in the wings
O.J.
November 11th, 2009
2:17 pm
How would you have a solid rotation if you got rid of Lowe AND Vazquez?? You would have Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Kawakami and Medlen?
Daslied
November 11th, 2009
2:17 pm
Big splash for me, too. You don’t need to improve over Escobar, McCann, Chipper and Prado. Diaz, McLouth and Heyward (whenever he comes up) are fine choices. Can’t beat the pitchers. Bench is pretty good. The glaring holes are 1B and one OF spot, so go for broke.
beekay
November 11th, 2009
2:18 pm
N8
JoJo and Brandon Jones seem to be your typical AAAA players. Guys solid in AAA but never cut it in the bigs. I agree that we should hold on to him unless a team like the Nats or Royals who look for cheap starters would be willing to give us someone useful.
Daslied
November 11th, 2009
2:19 pm
OJ, that 1-4 is pretty outstanding. They could throw any warm body out at #5 and be fine.
P. W. Hjort
November 11th, 2009
2:22 pm
Random,
Do you remember what blog it was on that you were arguing with someone who thought it would be beneficial for Lowe for him to re-structure his contract to something like 4/40? That was one of the funnier arguments on the blog.
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
2:25 pm
I dont get it. Some people are ok trading Vazquez and keeping Lowe. With the year that Lowe had (mediocre), he could easily be replaced. If you can get someone to take his contract, you can easily trade or sign a pitcher who can do better than 100 srikeouts and an ERA near 5.00.
Stop thinking the rotation will be decimated if they both leave. It wont. Vazquez can get us the outfielder we desparatly need and Lowe leaving will clear so much payroll we can sign a free agent or two.
JJ, Hanson, Hudson, New guy, Kawakami/Medlin will do just fine. That rotation with a revamped offense, the Braves would be a serious contender.
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
2:27 pm
If you dont believe me, ask N8.
McFann Ô
November 11th, 2009
2:27 pm
P-Town Yes, but Frank Thomas could still be playing 1b in the Marlins & Royals organizations
Hmm…
BravesfaninWis–
No need to apologize. You’re welcome!
beekay next B-Mac??…He’s a free swinger who needs to gain better command of the strike zone.
Not until he gets that straightened out.
On the other hand…he’s gonna be 18 in 2010? Oh mercy…that makes me just a little bit older than him.
CB
November 11th, 2009
2:28 pm
Lowe and KK for Miguel Cabrera- problem solved.
Braveheart
November 11th, 2009
2:28 pm
Footage of Random after the Braves trade his beloved Kawakami:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02xiDRSFg90
nolie
November 11th, 2009
2:28 pm
ust doesn’t have the same ring (tater)
I prefer a recliner for myself, but a couch for you.
O.J.
November 11th, 2009
2:30 pm
What new guy are you talking about?
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
2:34 pm
ANY new guy. People are attched to Lowe’s name. He is old and had a bad year. He might not bounce back.
With him gone you can sign any of a handful of servicable pitchers.
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
2:36 pm
Heck, with 15 mil a year off the books, the Braves can sign just about any pitcher this side of Lackey.
RC
November 11th, 2009
2:38 pm
Just saw this on MLBTraderumors.com:
Asked about trading Joey Votto, Jocketty replied, “Oh God, no.”
Soooo…..guess that one’s off the table.
DAP
November 11th, 2009
2:38 pm
this is from MLBTR
Asked about trading Joey Votto, Jocketty replied, “Oh God, no.”
Willie Montanez
November 11th, 2009
2:40 pm
I am seeing in stereo.
RC
November 11th, 2009
2:40 pm
DAP,
Jinx.
DAP
November 11th, 2009
2:40 pm
you scooped me, quick-draw RC.
ugaaccountant
November 11th, 2009
2:48 pm
A rotation of Hanson, JJ, Hudson, Kawakami, Medlen is above average. Keep Medlen in the pen and sign an average veteran FA for 4th/5th spot and it’s well above average.
Trading Lowe for very little, and Vasquez for a slugger does work as it clears a ton of salary to be spent in a buyers market. Trading those two we’d need a new 5th starter (cheap) and either an OF or 1b, whichever one we didn’t get for Vasquez.
McFann Ô
November 11th, 2009
2:52 pm
Happy Veterans Day, Mitchie-san! And thank you for your service!
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
2:53 pm
ugaaccountant, you have seen the light! Welcome.
beekay
November 11th, 2009
2:53 pm
McFann-…..BMac need not worry the kid is probably 3 years away and I remember when Tyler Houston was supposed to be the next Johnny Bench, 2nd pick overall and he ended up being a back up his whole career.
braveman
November 11th, 2009
2:53 pm
siap….
but curtis granderson is officially on the block.
how sweet would it be to get him? what would it take?
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
2:53 pm
Thanks McFann! You rock!
Jeff R
November 11th, 2009
2:56 pm
TnBrian… your 11:34 am post… I’d look seriously at swapping Kawakmai for Ludwick.
DAP… your 11:36 am post… I’ll grant your points on Votto, but I believe Wren has a commitment to Freeman and will seek an interim first baseman until he’s ready.
McFann Ô
November 11th, 2009
3:02 pm
beekay–
Oh yeah, I was just playin’ around. There are always these guys in the minors who are s’posed to be the greatest thing since the electric pencil sharpener, but so many times it doesn’t quite work out that way. And even with BMac, who could have looked at his minor league numbers and said, “Four-time All-Star after 4.36 years in the Bigs”? So hard to tell sometimes…
Or Salty…everyone thought he was so great. Not that he’s bad now, but he’s not quite what a lot of people made him out to be. I for one never got sucked into that, though.
Mitchie-san–
You’re welcome! And thank you…though you guys are the ones that REALLY rock!
P. W. Hjort
November 11th, 2009
3:05 pm
how sweet would it be to get him? what would it take?
And have 3 CF’ers? Doesn’t make sense. Isn’t a fit.
N8
November 11th, 2009
3:06 pm
I’m with you Mitchie-san. But you already know that. Why does it have to be Medlen? Why not a guy like Paul Byrd or a veteran that can give us some solid starts in the 5th starter spot. Because obviously if Hudson is healthy (and the Braves must believe he is), even with KK in the 4th starter’s spot, we’re VERY solid if not great in spots 1-4.
By trading both Lowe and Vazquez, Wren would clear 26.5 million off the books. Certainly with 26.5 million dollars the lineup could be not only fixed but made elite again, especially if Chipper rebounds. Which most think he will with some heavy protection in the order.
I can’t say it enough. It’s about balance. Balance wins from April to September. Add to that, Hudson, JJJ and Hanson certainly would make a very nice trio of starters in the post-season. And while KK might not be John Smoltz, what team out there has a better 4th starter than him?
Speaking of Smoltz. As much as people want to believe there is zero chance of him returning, (which I pretty much agree with), why not look into him being the 5th starter? If he fails, Medlen is there to take over, and if he fails, we’ve always got Jo-Jo and maybe even Minor later in the year.
Certainly after last year, Smoltz isn’t going to command/demand the 5 million that Boston gave him, is he?
If there is even the slightest chance that a guy like Derek Lee could be had for Vazquez, Wren has to pull that trigger, doesn’t he? Then with the salary dump of Lowe (we can’t really expect much in return if a team is going to take on that contract), Wren could afford to re-sign Gonzo and add a guy like Dye, Cameron or another mid-range RH outfielder.
If a guy like Derek Lee is added to the lineup to bat cleanup, all we really need in the OF is a guy that can do what Loaf did, with a little better defense, right?
Then when Heyward is ready to help, call him up and sort it out then.
Would our rotation be better if Wren just simply dumped Lowe and add a mid-level RH bat to bat cleanup? Sure and our lineup would probably be improved as well.
But imo, in order to maximize the money that Chipper is being paid and to help him get to elite status again, a true clenaup hitter is needed. Derek Lee is that guy to me. Not to mention he plays fantastic defense.
Trading Lowe and Vazquez weekens the rotation a bit. But replacing their salaries with Derek Lee at 1B and a Cameron in RF (with Diaz playing LF – maybe in a platoon with Church?), out TEAM is more poised to win on a daily basis.
Of course if Hudson goes down again it could all blow up in Wren’s face. So he really has to be certain that Hudson is “back”. Judging by the 3 year extension, I think he believes that.
Chopshop
November 11th, 2009
3:07 pm
Off topic but …….. Can we now officially call Sammy Sosa a clown ? His “face cream” has done wonders !!!
beekay
November 11th, 2009
3:08 pm
Michie-san
Don’t know you at all but appreciate people like you that risk their lives to give us the opportunity to have the freedoms that we have today. You guys do rock!
Capt Morgan
November 11th, 2009
3:09 pm
N8:
You make some good points about Jojo. My question is – how many options does he have left? He can’t have many – he’s been up and down between majors and minors for years…
Capt Morgan
November 11th, 2009
3:12 pm
N8:
I was referring to your 2:05 post – not your 3:06.
monty
November 11th, 2009
3:13 pm
Just too much to assume with Lowe and Vazquez both out. Together you figure they get 30-32 wins conservatively. Medlen and KK you could optimistically figure 24-26 wins. And you have to assume that Hanson doesn’t have a sophmore jinx and that Huddy is all the way back. Just too much conjecture IMO.
Braveheart
November 11th, 2009
3:13 pm
McLouth is from Michigan. Trade him back home in some package for Granderson …….
P. W. Hjort
November 11th, 2009
3:14 pm
You make some good points about Jojo. My question is – how many options does he have left? He can’t have many – he’s been up and down between majors and minors for years…
I believe he has 1 more left, but I’m not sure if one of them was used in ‘07 or not.
N8
November 11th, 2009
3:14 pm
Capt Morgan, I don’t know about his contract status. That would be a better question for DOB. But you’re right, his clock has to be ticking more than others. My guess is that we’ve got him under control for another 3 years or so. With what he’s done, his arbitration numbers wouldn’t really hurt us that bad. Seems to me, like he’d be a guy that would “settle” without going to a hearing when it comes to that (if it ever does).
My point is just not to give up on those guys so soon. But to use the minor league option system to our advantage. Which Wren seems to be doing with him. Obviously Morton would have been nice to hang on to as well, but he was needed to get McLouth.
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
3:16 pm
beekay,
Thats very kind of you. Thank you! It always means alot to all of us to hear that people care.
P-Town Brave
November 11th, 2009
3:17 pm
Random-
I chose not to answer because with ppl like you, it wouldn’t matter what I say, you’ll just choose to form your own sort of opinion and state that mine is ignorant and that everyone who agrees with me is stupid.
I still don’t feel as though I’m completely incorrect though as while you said Bobby is the main component, yeah, he is, because even when the Braves could have picked up a bonafide leadoff man, Bobby would choose to pursue the power bat. Thats not just me talking, thats GMs, scouts, and writers among others…
So you can think what you want of me, but i’ll be alright and forget all about you in about 10 minutes…
I mean I don’t always get along with Steve, but at least he has some better logic than we don’t run because we don’t have Otis Nixon. Oh and let me preface that saying that my meaning was little to none…as in when you have Prado, Escobar, McLouth, and Diaz who can run, but we choose to leave them at 1b…thats where my point comes in…
AND let me finish by saying that I don’t mean just stolen bases, but hit and runs, going 1st to 3rd…it happens very little in his system, and who knows, maybe the blame shouldn’t be on Bobby, maybe it should somewhat be on the baserunning instructors and the 3b coach (who is awful btw)…
Just don’t act like the Braves have been running like crazy all over the universe this decade because they haven’t.
Thats all, I am done with this conversation…there’s no point left to it.
O.J.
November 11th, 2009
3:17 pm
Looks like Curtis Granderson just became available. Any takers here?
Wayne in Utah
November 11th, 2009
3:18 pm
N8/Mitchie/others
A few weeks back, I floated the same idea; dealing Lowe and Vazquez. Was told to remember 2008, which was sobering.
One or two elbow “barks” puts you in a tougher situation.
But then again, nothing in life is guaranteed. FW seems to have the kahones to try something like that. I would think that with Medlen, Minor, Reyes and Parr in the wings, we might not be too bad off.
Again, it seems though that expecting ALL of our starters to have an injury free season might be a recipe for disaster.
I would love to see Kris “My Little Pony” Medlen get a chance to see what he can do. He has enough pitches to make it as a starter, and I think his skills might be wasted somewhat in the pen.
I love the Derrek Lee possibility too! (wonder if that would even be possible)
MZ
November 11th, 2009
3:20 pm
all this talk about movies, did anybody see “Orphan”? … the twist makes it what it is … definitely up there with “The Strangers” and “Vacancy” as far as top scary movies of the past few years …. as far as movies I’m anxious to check out — “The Lovely Bones” and “Shutter Island” are definitely must-sees in my mind … while I’m thinking about movies, just curious if anybody ever saw “Running Scared” with Paul Walker? Paul Walker sucks, but even he couldn’t bring “Running Scared” down … if you haven’t seen it, you should … that is, if you like crime-thriller-mob-chase-type films
Bad Scooter
November 11th, 2009
3:21 pm
Phil Karns- The 40 Year Old Virgin and Anchorman weren’t good enough for you?
braveman
November 11th, 2009
3:21 pm
put schafer in a package for granderson and move mclouth to left. granderson would leadoff and mclouth could bat further down in the order, driving in more runs.
then, we would have only one centerfielder in granderson.
it shouldnt take much to get him as his numbers declined a bit last year, although he did hit 30 homers. his average was down from .280 a year ago to .249 but he had some nagging injuries throughout the year supposedly. he is a career .272 hitter. he will only be 29 years old next season…
i dont know, seems like a good idea… but they way some of you talk about schafer being all-world its probably not to you guys haha
Bad Scooter
November 11th, 2009
3:22 pm
I forgot Superbad and Knocked Up too. Some great comedies the past few years.
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
3:22 pm
30-32 wins with Lowe and Vazquez? Dont forget Lowe wonderful run support last year. Take that away and he would have only won about 10 or so. I think assuming Lowe wins 15-16 next year is dangerous.
O.J.
November 11th, 2009
3:23 pm
Nevermind about the Granderson thing, I just looked as his splits against lefties and righties and he was absolutely horrible against lefties. Look at these splits.
Against righties he had a line of .275 28 62 with an OPS of .897
Against lefties he had a line of .183 2 9 with an OPS of .484
Now, granted, he didnt get as many plate appearances as he did against righties, but still, that looks horrible.
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
3:25 pm
Wayne,
Elbow barks can happen to any rotation. Lowe and Vazquez can both go down with injury and we would be in the same situation as if we traded them. Dont forget the plan is to sign another pitcher to replace Lowe.
P-Town Brave
November 11th, 2009
3:26 pm
Braveman-
I actually don’t see a problem with that deal other than MAYBE Granderson being another lefty that doesn’t hit lefties well.
We’d really have to go after someone like Atkins (bc he’s RHH) to play 1b then and he’d have to hit cleanup…
Thats the only problem I see there…
Your lineup w/ my addition would look something like this:
Granderson
Prado
Jones
Atkins
McCann
Escobar
McLouth
Diaz
That lineup is decent, but still don’t believe its as good as my lineup w/ Ludwick in the 4-hole and Atkins batting 7th (8th when Heyward is ready)
Wayne-
Somehow I still feel as though Medlen is our Plan C for closer(behind Gonzo and Wagner), and really, I could see him being a great one.
MattyRoss
November 11th, 2009
3:27 pm
I think somebody mentioned that watching on a DVR isn’t tracked by ratings, but if you watch it within 5 days it actually is. Nielsen started taking it into account. Just FYI.
N8
November 11th, 2009
3:27 pm
Monty, but compared to what Francouer, KJ and Kotchman gave us, how many more wins would bats like Cameron and Derek Lee (just examples) give us on those nights when the pitching isn’t perfect?
How many games did our offense just simply get shut down for most of the night? Not to mention the defense. Having a guy like Cameron in one of the corner spots just adds range to the OF defense. Dude played CF last year for the Brewers. Hell, they could play him in CF and move McLouth to LF for that matter. Cameron might be better defensively than McLouth in CF.
We barely played .500 ball in Vazquez’s starts (18-14).
In fact, the only starter that the Braves had a really good winning percentage in his starts was Lowe.
Here are the team records in the 5 starters starts:
Vazquez: 18-14
JJJ: 17-17
Lowe: 21-13
KK: 12-13
Hanson: 12-9
3 of those guys (Hanson, Vazquez and JJJ) had ERA’s under 3.00 and the team went 47-40 in their starts. Yet we went 21-13 in Lowe’s starts with his 4.67 ERA. Why do you think that is? Add to that, like him or not, KK and his 3.86 ERA deserved a much better fate (as did the team) in his starts.
It’s all about run support. Lowe had it, the others didn’t. When the “worst” (ERA wise) starter has the most wins, it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to figure it out. The offense needs a MASSIVE overhaul to give our good starters a better chance to win.
As Mitchie-san said, losing Lowe isn’t that devistating. Sure he could rebound, and sure he provides innings. Something this team desperately needed after the 2008 season. Our innings, pitching depth isn’t in nearly the poor shape it was in going into last year with Hudson starting on the shelf and Hanson in the minors. But certainly his ERA can easily be replaced. And with improved offense, not only would whoever replaces him get the run support needed to succeed, but so would Hanson, Hudson, JJJ and KK.
I’m not sure the impact bat we need to make this offense click can be had without trading Vazquez.
The perfect solution would be for Liberty Media to up payroll about 15-20 million. Then Lowe could be dumped. Holliday or Bay could be signed and Vazquez could be kept.
Where is Arthur Blank or Ted Turner when you need them. Mark Cuban anybody?
P-Town Brave
November 11th, 2009
3:28 pm
Mitchie-san-
Where did you get that? Maybe sign another pen pitcher, but we’d still have 5+ starters if we traded Lowe (the plus being counting Medlen and if you even wanna count Jo-Jo as a starter now)
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
3:28 pm
Not sure my 3:25 made much sense. I typed too fast while thinking…
O.J.
November 11th, 2009
3:29 pm
I for one do not think Medlen would be a good closer. Yes he has really good stuff, but his mentality doesnt seem to fit that of a closer, he is way too fidgety and if the opposing team got runners on, he might falter under the pressure. Someone like Hanson has the mentality to be a good closer, but he is way too valuable in the starting rotation.
braveman
November 11th, 2009
3:30 pm
P-town,
true. we still need to find some right handed pop.
CB
November 11th, 2009
3:30 pm
It is amazing that people make trade proposals and they haven’t even looked at any stats or think how they would fit in the lineup-well for you fellows my granny is available and she would come cheap.
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
3:32 pm
P-Town,
I would like to have another veteran pitcher in the rotation other than Hudson. Just for mentor and injury sake alone. I wouldnt mind Medlen starting, but the teams plan for him might be the bullpen.
P-Town Brave
November 11th, 2009
3:33 pm
N8-
I for one am someone who has never really liked Cameron offensively. If your team is having an off night, he’s not gonna be the one to turn it around. The guy strikes out way too much.
My clamoring for Garrett Atkins has been because of that…I value guys who put the ball in play. Look at his stats w/ RISP and in high leverage situations. The guy is money.
What are Cameron’s numbers in those situations?
Granted I agree w/ that combination creating more offense than Francoeur/KJ/Kotchman but thats mainly on Prado and what Lee would give you. I just don’t buy Cameron being that much more effective if you aren’t considering his glove.
Bring that into play and then we’ll talk.
MattyRoss-
You have a link for that? I’m the one that said it as I heard it on a news broadcast not too long ago.
P-Town Brave
November 11th, 2009
3:34 pm
Mitchie-san-
Did you forget about Vazquez?
Also, I’ll take talent over veteran any day…
I mean c’mon, would you want Jurrjens or Jeff Suppan on your staff?
N8
November 11th, 2009
3:35 pm
Wayne, I agree on Medlen. I honestly think that with an offense that helps the team compete in games where the pitching isn’t “on” that night, that Medlen could give us around 6-7 innings a night with similar ERA to what Lowe provided (think Jason Marquis in Colorado).
The reason that guys like KK, Medlen and even Vazquez and JJJ earlier in the year, were not allowed to go deeper into games more often, was because the offense stunk so bad that Bobby was forced to PH for them in the mid innings before teams got to their closers and main setup guys.
With an offense that scores around 5-6 runs a game consistently, a guy like Medlen could be stretched out a bit more. Especially as a 5th starter where he could get skipped once in a while.
But later in the year, KK proved he could go deeper in games, once he was asked to do so.
A rotation of JJJ, Hanson, Hudson, KK and Medlen would STILL be one of the better rotations in baseball, and certainly in the NL East. If our lineup was drasticly improved, I think that rotation still allows us to make a run at the Phillies, and certainly puts us in a better wild card position than we were in last year.
But as I’ve said before. After June 28th we were one of the best teams in baseball. So simply replacing Lowe (salary dump) with Hudson, and finding a 1B (maybe re-signing LaRoche) and figuring out a bridge OF until Heyward is ready, along with solving the Gonzo/Soriano issue, perhaps we’re all over-thinking this too much?
But I suspect the Phillies will look to improve as well. Not to mention that like us with McLouth and the “addition by subtraction” of Jeff, the Phils also will have a full year of Cliff Lee, which makes them better from April to September. So Wren is best advised to not sit on his hands too much.
DAP
November 11th, 2009
3:36 pm
i really like granderson. i dont think he is that much better than mclouth, though. they have basically been identical offensive players the last two years. granderson hada career year in 2007 that spiked his career numbers, but im not sure that thats the player he really is.
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
3:37 pm
P-Town,
I think they should trade BOTH Vazquez and Lowe….
P-Town Brave
November 11th, 2009
3:37 pm
Oh, also Mitchie…
In my pen, I like keeping Moylan in the 7th and slotting Medlen into the 8th as the setup man.
Then you can throw Gonzo or Wagner in the 9th.
AND I like having Kimbrell on the staff and bringing him along slowly. Let him learn the ropes and be a student under Pete and either Gonzo or Billy. He’ll learn much from either of those two. Almost like when Rivera learned his first year under Wetteland.
O.J.
November 11th, 2009
3:38 pm
I think all of you guys are failing to grasp the big pitcher. What GM in their right mind would trade a big young bopper that is relatively cheap or even a good homerun guy for just 1 year of Javy Vazquez? You would have to throw in much more in the way of prospects to get a team to fork over a BJ Upton or Mark Reynolds type player. So it would be much easier to trade Lowe to free up the 15 million and sign LaRoche and another player like Mike Cameron to fill out the lineup.
O.J.
November 11th, 2009
3:40 pm
I liked someones idea the other day of having a two headed closer of Moylan and Gonzalez. Gonzo against the lefties and Moylan against the righties.
P-Town Brave
November 11th, 2009
3:40 pm
I really don’t want Javy to go anywhere…I like that rotation, but I would like it much better with Javy in it and KK as the 5 or Medlen as the 5.
I still feel as though we don’t put Medlen in the rotation though as that would leave yet another pen spot to fill.
Another idea is to have Jo-Jo go to the pen. He may not be cut out as a starter, but why not a lights out lefty reliever that could give you 1-2 innings?
Mitchie-san
November 11th, 2009
3:41 pm
I am not as talented as N8, but read his posts. We are on the same wavelength.
Macon Braves (RIP)
November 11th, 2009
3:41 pm
Just finished watching Sons of Anarchy from last night. As good as that show was at the start, it seems to just get better and better with every episode. Amazing show!! It’s moved right up my rankings to be on the same list with The Wire, The Sopranoes, Deadwood, etc.
Tomahawk Talk
November 11th, 2009
3:42 pm
It’s not set in stone but I have talked to the manager of the Braves groundscrew and I should have a job lined up. I was thinking about starting a website/blog to tell my story. I’m trying to come up with a clever name for it but something like this…
(Insert Name Here): a view from the Atlanta Braves Groundscrew
i’ve heard
Haulin’ the Tarp: a view from the groundscrew
I need more ideas! Thanks guys!
P-Town Brave
November 11th, 2009
3:43 pm
OJ-
Yeah, the guys I listened to on the podcast said they would sign Cameron (6M), Atkins (4M), Nady (3M), Counsell (1M), Howry (2M) and Wagner (9M), and they would trade Lowe and Kawakami.
I don’t really like all the ideas there, but it would give us a more complete roster.
nolie
November 11th, 2009
3:43 pm
nd love Entourage, but don’t have HBO…same w/ Dexter and Showtime… P-Town
http://thepiratebay.org/tv
TnBrian
November 11th, 2009
3:46 pm
BREAKING NEWS:
“It appears inevitable that the Braves will trade one starter”. (MLBTR)
N8
November 11th, 2009
3:46 pm
P-Town, I’m definitely taking Cameron’s glove into play. I think playing him in CF and moving McLouth to LF, drasticaly improves our OF defense. Neither of them have the range of Andruw in their prime. Hell, Schafer is prolly (LOL) a better CF than both of them. But the combined range of the the two of them is better than any defense with Loaf in it.
To me, Cameron is a nice bat to put lower in the order who can provide some pop at the backend. But not as a cleanup hitter. No way. We’d be better off with Escobar batting cleanup.
But if Wren could add a Derek Lee to bat cleanup (simply put, his protection of Chipper and his batting cleanup allowing Mac to bat 5th – his best spot – would be almost as valuble as whatever actual production he provided – along with HIS defense), then a guy like Cameron could be a nice piece of the puzzle as a secondary acquisition this winter.
If Cameron is the ONLY addition? The it won’t be enough, and we’d be better off keeping Vazquez.
Make no mistake, I’m only OK with moving Vazquez if a HUGE hitter like Lee is added for him. I’m not looking to dump his salary. 11.5 million is a steal for what he provides. We just happen to have pitching depth, and he is the ONLY pitcher that isn’t young and under our control that could bring said bat.
Lowe on the other hand, as I’ve stated, can be easily replaced for what we are paying him. If Lowe was making only 8 million per year, he’d be a steal too. But he’s not. Which is why KK is a better “value” than Lowe at this point.
As I’ve stated, Chipper’s value needs to be maximized as well. To me, the only way to do that is to provide him with some REAL protection in the lineup. While I do think he’s getting older and his decline has begun, provide him with some protection and take the weight off of his shoulders and he can be a great asset to this team for another year or maybe two. But Wren should be on the lookout in these trades for a young 3B to replace him. Or perhaps a young 2B to replace Prado and then move Prado to 3B.
Prado might not provide the power that you expect from 3B. But he could grow into that role, and he certainly could be Jeff Cirillo like with all his doubles. Not to mention he’s better defensively at 3B than at 2B. So Wren has options down the road when Chipper is done.
But I’m with you on “contact” guys over power guys. If Wren is not going to get a big bopper (like Derek Lee), and is only going to acqurire one guy, it should be somebody that provides good defense and makes solid contact. If a big bat is traded for/signed to bat cleanup, a hacker like Cameron can have a place on this team.
P. W. Hjort
November 11th, 2009
3:47 pm
nolie,
You ever use tvtorrents? Much better selection and DL speeds.
Braveheart
November 11th, 2009
3:48 pm
Rivera really didn’t learn under Wetteland in 1996. Starting with the divisional series in his rookie year against the Mariners in 1995, Rivera was far and away better than Wetteland. They formed a good combo in 1996, but Rivera wasn’t learning how to close from Wetteland that year. Rivera was just biding his time until he could shove Wetteland out of his way.
beekay
November 11th, 2009
3:49 pm
If we trade Javy we better get a heck of a return. He dominated throughout the entire season…a performance that we haven’t seen from a starter since the Big Three days. JJ and Hanson were very, very good but Javy was lights out 90% of his starts.
N8
November 11th, 2009
3:51 pm
“I am not as talented as N8, but read his posts. We are on the same wavelength.” Mitchie-san
Dude. I’m just longwinded, and have zero talent for making my point without writing an essay. LOL
But you’re the true hero. Don’t forget it.
wheelz007
November 11th, 2009
3:51 pm
Maybe Medlen could close?