Would you really trade Jurrjens?
While it’s still a little early for many trade rumors of substance to start percolating, there is one Brave whose name is occasionally mentioned on this blog as a potential trade piece, one that to me seems not just highly improbable but almost outlandish.
Jair Jurrjens.
Yes, there are some denizens, presumably of sound mind and in a sober state, who advocate trading a 23-year-old elite starting pitcher who is not even eligible for arbitration until the 2011 season. A pitcher who won 13 games as a rookie, then improved significantly in 2009 during his second full season in the majors.
Jurrjens is a budding ace, not trade piece
That’s not even taking into account that he’s extremely bright, has an impeccable reputation as a teammate and a hard worker, and he’s a kid who never complained while getting brutal run support for most of a season in which he could easily have won 18-20 games instead of 14. Beyond all that, he’s just too talented to trade right now.
He went 14-10 with a staff-best 2.60 ERA, and in his last 20 starts he was 9-5 with a 2.42 ERA. In four of those 20 games, he got a loss or no decision while allowing two earned runs or fewer in seven innings or more. In that 20-game stretch, he also got consecutive losses in games when he allowed three earned runs in seven innings and three earned runs in eight innings.
Let me preface the rest of this by saying, if I’m wrong I’ll gladly admit it later. That said, I can’t see how the Braves would seriously consider trading Jurrjens this winter. And I don’t believe they have, or will, seriously consider it. Not after making it clear the past two years that they’re building around starting pitching.
Again, if it happens, or even if a credibly sourced rumor crops up, something that seems to have some substance, I’ll admit I was wrong.
So why do I bring it up now? Because before long we’re going to be sifting through reports and rumors about this pitcher or that being shopped, and I’ve already read Jurrjens name mentioned here by several of our regulars. And while things are still relatively slow right now, figured I’d just try to express why it makes no sense.
His name pops up here as a trade possibility, presumably because some believe that the Braves’ pitching surplus and the fact that Jurrjens is a Scott Boras client (probably more the latter) means the Braves should fill their power-hitting need by trading any one of their best starters not named Tommy Hanson, including Jurrjens since they eventually won’t be able to afford him.
No, no, no.
The untouchable is just seven months younger than Jurrjens
That’s no reason to trade Jurrjens. That’s a reason, possibly, to trade Javier Vazquez, who is making $11.5 million next season and, with another season comparable to the one he had in 2008 – he was 15-10 with a 2.87 ERA, and also should have won 18-20 games with decent run support – might command a multi-year contract with a salary of at least $13-15 million per season a year from now. At age 34. (See: Derek Lowe, who got a four-year, $60 million deal a year ago, at age 35 and after having only one season in his previous six that was as impressive as two of the last three seasons by Vazquez.)
To repeat: Jurrjens is 23. Just seven months older than Hanson. He won’t be eligible for arbitration until after next season. And even if the Braves aren’t able or don’t try to sign him to a multi-year contract – you might have heard, Boras drives a hard bargain – they still can afford to keep him at least a couple of seasons of arbitration before trading him.
Loading ...So that’s three more seasons out of a pitcher that, as last season wore on, showed how special he is. We’re talking No. 1 or No. 2 starter good. Between him and Hanson, I believe the Braves have two of the best five under-24 starters in the majors. You don’t trade either one of them until you feel like you have to.
You build around those guys, who could potentially form the best 1-2 combo in the NL by 2011. And if you keep Tim Hudson, whom the Braves are believed to be close to signing to a three-year extension with a fourth-year option, imagine that trio atop your rotation. The back two spots could be filled by Kenshin Kawakami or Lowe (I think one of them will eventually be traded) and lefty Mike Minor, last year’s first-round draft choice. Or Kris Medlen, or someone else.
But that’s getting a little ahead of ourselves. For now, I just wanted to focus on Jurrjens, since everyone has heard enough about how good Hanson can be and has seen for themselves enough of Hudson and of the high percentage of pitchers who come back strong from the now-routine Tommy John surgery he had in August 2008.
Is Huddy, 34, going to be as good as he was in his late 20s? Maybe not, but he’s an unusually well-conditioned pitcher driven to return to elite status, and he wants to be with the Braves and to be part of what he believes is the positive movement of the franchise and its young standouts. He’ll continue to help those young pitchers, as he already has.
Vazquez will, too, which is another reason the Braves are so reluctant to trade him after his stellar 2009 season. Having Vazquez back along with Jurrjens, Hanson, Hudson and whoever else would assure the Braves again have one of, if not the, best rotations in the National League.
But trading Vazquez one year away from free agency is at least understandable, if the Braves could get a big bat in such a deal. Trading Jurrjens? That’s just not something that makes sense, barring some unexpectedly overwhelming offer that another team might make, something involving a equally young, affordable, big-time power hitter who’s just entering his prime.
Even then, there’s a reason that successful teams so rarely trade young, budding-ace starting pitchers. You win games with great starters. And Jurrjens and Hanson both have legitimate potential to be great starting pitchers.
Which brings me back to Jurrjens’ 2009 season. With all the deserved attention paid to Vazquez’s terrific season and Hanson’s rookie-of-the-year bid and the Braves’ late push for a playoff berth and Chipper Jones‘ struggles and Bobby Cox’s retirement decision and everything else, Jurrjens’ performance sometimes got overshadowed.
Can you imagine if Jurrjens did what he did last season for, say, the Phillies? With that run support (and not even taking into account his uncanny performances at Citizens Bank Park, where he has a 1.30 ERA in four starts). Or better, yet, the hoopla he’d receive if he pitched for the Yankees? I mean, Joba Chamberlain is 12-7 with a 4.18 ERA in 43 career starts, but from the attention he’s accorded, you’d think he was one of the most accomplished young pitchers in baseball.
Jurrjens is 30-21 with a 3.21 ERA in 72 starts for Braves and Tigers, and getting better all the time.
He made $450,000 in 2009 and ranked third in the NL in ERA (2.60), behind Chris Carpenter (2.24) and Tim Lincecum (2.48) and ahead of Adam Wainwright (2.63). Carpenter, Lincecum and Wainwright, in some order, are likely to be the top three Cy Young Award vote-getters.
Jurrjens held hitters to a .192 average with runners in scoring position, one of only eight major league qualifiers with sub-.200 marks in that category. His .203 average allowed with runners on base was tied with Clayton Kershaw for fifth in the NL, relievers included (two ahread of him were relievers Carlos Marmol and Renyel Pinto).
When I asked Chipper near the end of the season about how important it was to keep Vazquez for next season, his response reflected not just how he and other players viewed Vazquez’s value to the team, but also plenty about Jurrjens.
Chipper said of the importance of keeping Vazquez: “It’s the most important part. And the reason I say that is because, not only has he gone out and done what he’s done, but he has helped J.J. tremendously. You’re starting to see J.J. not only add and subtract to his fastball, but you’re starting to see him add and subtract to his slider, his changeup — when you hear guys on other teams say, ‘That’s the guy I fear most in your starting five,’ that tells you he’s continuing to progress. And you’re seeing it here at the end of the season; he’s been virtually unhittable his last four or five starts.”
He was right, only it wasn’t just four or five starts. Jurrjens was 5-2 with a 1.76 ERA in his last 10 starts, all of them quality starts. He pitched seven or more innings in nine of those final 10 starts, and allowed two earned runs or fewer in nine of 10.
“That’s the influence of a Javier Vazquez,” Jones said. “They’ve got similar velocity. They might have a little bit different repertoire, but they pitch with their fastball, they use their changeup as an out pitch, and they throw in the slider and the curveball just to give the hitter one more thing to think about.
“And when you talk about adding and subtracting, you’re talking about something that a 30-year-old pitcher who’s been in the league 10 years does. J.J.’s starting to grasp that at 23.”
That’s not a guy you trade, unless and until you believe you have no other choice.
An update: Dodgers CEO Jamie McCourt (her on left) was fired by her husband, Dodgers owner Frank McCourt, after they separated. Last week she filed for divorce.
♣ About the World Series: I looked at ESPN.com’s World Series predictions, and was a little stunned to see 21 of their 23 picked the Yankees over the Phillies. Come on, folks, 21 of 23 of you are picking the Yankees? That includes “Boog” Sciambi, who’s taking the Yankees in six.
Well, I say 21 of 23 of them are wrong. I’m taking the Phillies in seven games.
As great as C.C. Sabathia has been, Cliff Lee has been his equal so far in this postseason. Each manager has said he might use his ace for three starts in a seven-game series. (And Charlie Manuel’s a better manager than Joe Girardi, by the way.)
A.J. Burnett is in his first postseason, and got rocked in his last ALCS start. I like Pedro Martinez against A.J. in Game 2.
And as mediocre-to-bad as erstwhile Phillies ace Cole Hamels has been this season, I still believe he’ll come up with a good start when the series shifts to Philly for Game 3. Andy Pettitte surpassed John Smoltz with his 16th postseason win Sunday, but I think the Phillies are going to score at least a few runs against him at Citizens Bank Park.
Beyond the pitching matchups, I just like Philly’s scrappy, power-laden lineup, which has hit bombs almost equally at home and on the road this season, unlike the Yankees, who’ve hit a lot more at home.
If the Phillies can split the first two games in the Bronx, they’ll win two of three at Philly and go back to New York with a 3-2 lead.
Ryan Howard’s huge disparity between righties and lefties (he hit .319 with a 1.086 OPS against righties, .207 with a .653 OPS vs. lefties) doesn’t bode well for the Philly man-mountain slugger against Sabathia, Pettitte and the Yankees’ lefty relievers or Mariano Rivera and his devastating cutter. (I heard a remarkable stat the other day – Howard only had one homer against a lefty in more than 100 at-bats in Philly’s home ballpark this season; I haven’t been able to verify.)
But even if Howard has a mediocre series (and I’m not convinced he will), the rest of the Phillies are more than capable of carrying the offense.
Jayson Werth, Chase Utley, Shane Victorino, Jimmy Rollins … we all are quite familiar with their work. The Phillies have the swaggering veterans, like the Red Sox did a while back, to withstand everything the Yankees can throw their way in a postseason series.
And the Phillies have the home crowd to match or surpass the Yankees for noise and nastiness.
The Phillies are 18-5 with a 3.06 ERA and 33 homers in postseason games the past two years, including 11-1 with a 2.67 ERA at home.
I’m taking the Phillies to become the first to repeat as World Series champions in a decade, and the first NL team to do it since Cincy’s Big Red Machine more than three decades ago.
So let us know what you’re thinking about this Series. Gotta do it now, before it starts. (Although feel free to keep commenting about it after it gets underway, of course.)
“HOLIDAY” by James McMurtry
The in-laws are waiting the games have begun
The cell phone keeps ringing “don’t answer it hon”
The whole thing’s arranged just to aggravate Dad
And it’s amateur day on the old super slab
The kids are strapped down like a half load of pipe
All safe in their car seats they fuss and they gripe
Well you can’t hardly blame ‘em it must be a bitch
Counting the crosses off down in the ditch
This one’s got flowers, this one’s got a wreath
This one’s got a name painted down underneath
Was the road all iced up, were they going too fast
Here’s five in a circle left from the last holiday
Holiday
There’s a three-trailer rig just a throwin’ up spray
Not legal to run on this kind of a day
But god damn the smokies and the four wheelers too
Stay offa my bumpers or the same goes for you
There’ll be none for him
He that wants it the most
As he hauls it on out to the Oregon coast
No turkey no gravy no Zinfandel wine
You just stay over right and we’ll get along fine
He’s missing the football, missing the fun
He’d play with the grandkids but he’s off on a run
And some hat’s on the radio singing his song
But it don’t make a damn
He’s in for a long holiday
Holiday
Now granny she’s yelling
She’s ready to eat
She’s havin’ conniptions
‘Cause they won’t take their seats
But she’s got ‘em all gathered now under one roof
With her camcorder loaded
She’s gonna get proof
But do you have to wear that
Well I just don’t see why
Please pass the potatoes
Aw eat s#!% and die
Did you hear about Ellen, she’s leaving, you know
How ‘bout those Packers, think it’ll snow?
And the minute it’s over they’ll scatter like quail
Off down the freeway in the teeth of a gale
Silent and shattered And numb to the core
They count themselves lucky
They got through one more holiday
Holiday
The highway patrolman
He stands in the rain
He just lets it run down to soften the stain
Of the blood on his pant leg
From working that wreck
And he won’t forget it
In time for the next holiday
Departing Chicago at 9:52
In clean desert camo all baggy and loose
Sits an Iowa Guardsman alone by the gate
The place sure looked different, in 1968
When he traveled with mom, first time on a plane
To visit some kin, he’s forgotten their names
But he remembers the soldiers, still in their teens
In their spit polished boots and their pressed army greens
With the creases so sharp, and their faces so smooth
But their eyes looked so heavy, he wondered how they could move
Now he’s got that same look, like his insides are black
He’s in his mid forties and he has to go back
And he can’t even smoke while he waits for his plane
The uniform’s different, but the mission remains
To do like they tell you, don’t make a fuss
Why’s not an issue, so don’t think too much
You just do what you have to, shut up and drive
If you come apart later, well at least you’re alive
You can get you some help, you can deal with it then
And life will be better, ‘til it happens again
‘Cause there’s something inside us that won’t let us be
It stalks through our days ‘til it’s too dark to see
And it’s damn near as deadly as Texans on ice
Lord don’t they beat all
Y’all have a nice holiday
2,392 comments Add your comment
CB
October 28th, 2009
5:07 pm
uno,dos,tres ?
P-Town Brave
October 28th, 2009
5:07 pm
Short of getting Ryan Braun, no, we shouldn’t trade JJ
DAP-
I’m not saying I’m 100% against obtaining Swisher, but just some things I noticed.
Also, the small sample size proves why they couldn’t bring him in to bat cleanup…
There have been way too many “if” scenarios already in the last couple years, and the Braves truly need an already established impact bat that has already batted and hit comfortably in the cleanup spot. Or at least thats my opinion.
cricket
October 28th, 2009
5:10 pm
I know people can justify any far fetched idea, but trading JJJ is the dumbest trade idea ever.
Rufus
October 28th, 2009
5:12 pm
No way the Braves can, or will, trade JJ. Just doesn’t make sense. Javier I could understand as you’ve got a glut of starting pitching, he’s coming off his strongest year, and his market value may never be higher. The starting rotation will be shorter one guy in the spring but it’s not going to be JJ.
Random (as MFIKY)
October 28th, 2009
5:12 pm
Rhrhr — Mess YOU up.
cricket
October 28th, 2009
5:12 pm
Short of getting Ryan Braun, no, we shouldn’t trade JJ
Short of getting King Albert, no, we shouldn’t trade JJ
Random
October 28th, 2009
5:13 pm
(That was better — I was in a hurry before.)
Scorby Jones
October 28th, 2009
5:17 pm
is the World Series on the radio?
McFann Ô
October 28th, 2009
5:17 pm
Thanks for the new Blog, Chief! And I totally agree with you about JJ…no way the Braves trade him. And if they did, well…think that would qualify them to lose a LOT of int’rest from this fann.
Lew–
Good point…and s’pose confidence comes with more experience. I…sorta trust what I’m doing…
Sometimes you have to do a piece over ten or twelve times to get what you want.
True. Though I’ve never drawn a piece that many times. I have done a couple pieces twice, and the second one ALWAYS comes out better…Like the Fox I drew for cabravesfan–the original (the one I showed to her and others on here) came out WAY too orange-yellow. So obviously I made some changes in the one I drew for her, and it came out much better–more orange-brown, the way a Fox should be.
Random
October 28th, 2009
5:19 pm
Wayne in Utah (October 28th, 2009 4:50 pm): “rotation, not staff….”
Well, they do go well together, if you sit and think on it.
<i<(Not necessarily in that order.)
David O'Brien
October 28th, 2009
5:20 pm
Doc Holiday, you made a comment on the other blog, which I meant to address in today’s new blog, but forgot to. So I’ll do it here.
You joked: Braves have created their own manager of the year award to make sure bobby gets an award at the end of 2010…….
I know you were kidding, but still thought I’d point something out. The Braves won’t have to worry about Cox getting nice stuff or an award next year — he’ll get parting gifts at each of his final stops in cities the Braves visit, and then it’s a safe bet he’ll have a nice presentation in Cooperstown soon after.
Consider this, from Rule 6 regarding election of managers or umpires to the Baseball Hall of Fame:
6. Eligible Candidates:
A. Eligible candidates must be selected from Baseball Managers and Umpires who have been retired from organized Baseball as Managers or Umpires for at least five (5) years prior to the election. If the candidate is 65 years old at the time of retirement, the waiting period is reduced to six (6) months. If the candidate reaches the age of 65 during the five-year waiting period, the candidate becomes eligible six months after the candidate’s 65th birthday.
(Cox is 68.)
Mike S
October 28th, 2009
5:22 pm
I agree with P-town the only way I would consider trading JJ is for at least Ryan Braun.I like Derek Lowe but with the Braves payroll situation I think that $15 Million could be put to a better use.
Jim
October 28th, 2009
5:22 pm
Dave:
Would you please comment on the notion of signing Laroche to a 3 or 4 year deal at “market,” but with no “no trade” clause and letting chips fall where they may re Freeman. While FF has shown plenty of promise, my sense is that he’s no earlier than a mid-11 arrival in the Bigs. Laroche can add a lot of value between now and then, and would likely be the starting 1B of ‘10 and ‘11. Given the type of player he is, he’s unluikely to lose any trade value for seasons he’s 34 and 35 years old.
Thanks.
rammerjammer
October 28th, 2009
5:23 pm
If Frank deals Lowe and that contract, you think he’ll look to extend Vazquez through, say, 2012?
Benjamin
October 28th, 2009
5:24 pm
Short answer: no way in the world would I deal Jair Jurrjens. Not without getting a young franchise player signed to a multi-year deal in return, and even then, I would be hesitant.
He and Tommy Hanson are the future of this team, along with Heyward and Schafer.
P-Town Brave
October 28th, 2009
5:25 pm
From MLBTR:
Trade Market: First Basemen
Prince Fielder, Brewers. On October 7th, Brewers GM replied, “I don’t see that happening” when asked about trading Fielder or Ryan Braun (Tom Haudricourt of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reporting). What’s more, SI’s Jon Heyman expects the Brewers to attempt to lock Fielder up this winter. Fielder is already under team control through 2011, and there is no reason to expect him to be shopped (the Brewers have other trade chips with which they can acquire pitching).
Adrian Gonzalez, Padres. Like Fielder, most Gonzalez trade rumors have been speculative. And Jed Hoyer knowing Theo Epstein doesn’t really increase the chances of a trade to Boston. The Padres have a small payroll, but Gonzalez will only earn $10.25MM over the next two seasons. Hoyer even said long-term discussions are “on the docket.” On the other hand, there were summer trade talks with the Mariners, Red Sox, and Dodgers under old GM Kevin Towers. Towers believes “it’s just a matter of when” the Padres trade Gonzalez.
Adam Dunn, Nationals. We haven’t heard anything about Dunn being available, but it’d be reasonable for GM Mike Rizzo to listen. The Nats have Dunn signed for next year at $12MM.
Lyle Overbay, Blue Jays. Currently, the Blue Jays have no plans to move Adam Lind to first base (says MLB.com’s Jordan Bastian). If they change their mind, Overbay and his $7MM salary could theoretically be shopped.
Jorge Cantu, Marlins. Here’s a guy who’s actually likely to be available this winter. The thinking is that the Marlins would prefer not to give Cantu an arbitration raise on his $3.5MM salary. Cantu traded some power for OBP this year.
James Loney, Dodgers. More speculation…the Dodgers could consider trading Loney and his .399 SLG if they’d prefer more power at first base. Loney’s salary is set to take a jump through arbitration this year.
Ryan Garko, Giants. Garko is a non-tender candidate for the Giants, so it figures they’ll try to trade him first. At the least, Garko handles lefties well.
Casey Kotchman, Red Sox. Kotchman was an odd acquisition by the Red Sox, as they don’t have much of a spot for him. He’s similar to Loney but the asking price might be lower.
Andy Marte, Indians. Marte’s future with the Tribe is in doubt after a .232/.293/.400 performance in the bigs. He did slug .593 at Triple A this year.
Mike Jacobs, Royals. Like Garko, a non-tender candidate. Jacobs spent most of the season as a DH.
Seems to me like what I mentioned about a couple weeks ago, Cantu would seem like the perfect fit IF the Braves could get the Marlins to bite w/o giving up too much.
Maybe Fredi is partial to some of our retreads or never were’s like the Royals are?
candler willis
October 28th, 2009
5:27 pm
Really,is that even a question??NO,you dont trade a young ace like that that is dumb question..No matter waht you get you dont unless its hanley ramirez or something..You have a chance to build a awsome 1-2 punch that you need to build a winning team.The dumb thing the braves did was not trading for mark texiara.People always say the braves never make big splashes i condon wren for that wonderful idea..But kawakimi that was a bad idea you dont pay a 39 year old that much money come on think about it so way to go wren messed that one up.Now ur stuck with too many pitchers that are OLD…GO Braves…
David O'Brien
October 28th, 2009
5:27 pm
Have you seen the latest ugliness in the McCourts-in-court saga?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4601465
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
5:29 pm
trading a 23-year-old elite starting pitcher
I don’t advocate trading him, but there are a few red flags in his performance. Basically, his results this year were a whole lot better than 2008’s without him getting, fundamentally, any better. Some people explain it as good luck, some people say it’s “poise” or “mound presence” or whatever. I don’t know what it is, but I think both sides have good points.
Anyway, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to call him an “elite starting pitcher”. His K’s aren’t there, his BB’s are a bit high, and his GB% declined in 2009. He ain’t gonna be able to sustain a 79.4 LOB%, either. Plenty of things point to regression for Jurrjens in 2010 and several hit-luck based metrics suggest he’s a fairly good bit worse than his 2009 ERA. I hope they’re wrong, and I’m not saying they are right, just playing devil’s advocate.
Furthermore, I’ve made this point before, but fans always seem to see what they want to see in their young players. Everything positive is good and there’s an excuse for everything negative. Not saying they’re right, but are there any heralded analysts or front office personnel that don’t have connections to the organization calling Jurrjens an ace? I think we’re all guilty of seeing what we want to see and overestimating his potential/upside.
Beyond all that, he’s just too talented to trade right now.
What if you’re getting something equally talented, or more talented, with just as favorable of a contractual situation, or more favorable? I mean, you don’t just dismiss the idea out of principle. If a trade emerged involving Jurrjens that made the team better now and in the future, Wren would be insane not to do it. And that’s not just with Jurrjens, everyone. If a deal makes sense it makes sense. Is your team going to be better now after this deal? Is your team going to be better in the future after this deal? If the answer is “yes” to both of those questions, you make the deal. And it isn’t inconceivable that such a deal could surface involving Jurrjens.
However, it’s rather unlikely. Which is why I think this:
That said, I can’t see how the Braves would seriously consider trading Jurrjens this winter. And I don’t believe they have, or will, seriously consider it.
Is exactly right. It’s not that team’s couldn’t give up something that makes it worth trading Jurrjens, it’s that they most likely won’t. It would involve trading a similar type of impact player, like a Matt Kemp or a Dustin Pedroia or something of the sort. And teams usually don’t swap core pieces. Doing so largely results in no net gain.
Don B
October 28th, 2009
5:32 pm
And I thought Pedro Martinez was going to pitch the second game for the Phillies. Who is the new guy Gomez????????
Wayne in Utah (WWRFD)
October 28th, 2009
5:32 pm
Pitchers careers are a bit more precarious than that of position players. That being said, when you have someone as talented as Jurrjens, it is hard to think about dealing him.
I have been one who has mentioned dealing him for a big bat in the past. Would I after the “scolding” I just received? For a handful of positional players, yes. Without going over all the players in the majors, I would deal him for Albert Pujols, Ryan Braun or Eva Longoria, I think.
But then again, having those dual aces for the next 10 years is mighty tempting.
To be honest, I doubt you would ever get another team to give you enough to truly be willing to deal Jurrjens.
If I remember correctly, when I first proposed dealing Jair, it was back in mid summer, before he closed out the season with a bang.
Hopefully, he will not have any career endangering injuries that would make us wish he were dealt.
I do believe that it will be interesting, the closer he gets to his free agency years.
Are we going to discuss Escobar on the next blog???
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
5:34 pm
Interesting exercise:
If you had to trade one of the below, which do you trade?
Jair Jurrjens
Yunel Escobar
Art Vandelay
October 28th, 2009
5:35 pm
I’m just glad I wasn’t around when the “trade JJ” comments that moved DOB to write this piece were originally posted. That might be the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard. Under no circumstances, even a deal including Ryan Braun, should the Braves listen to offers for him.
AdirondackDave
October 28th, 2009
5:35 pm
Couldn’t agree more DOB, Jurrjens is as valuable as Hanson and that is saying a ton. Even if the Braves were offered a young outfielder or first baseman, say an Adrian Gonzalez or similar (if there are any) I’m not sure I would make that deal for JJ. A team with outstanding pitching and mediocre offense seems more likely to contend to me than the reverse. FW worked wonders last winter with pitching. Now with a surplus starter, a surplus infielder, and some prospect chips, no reason to think he can’t, or at least make a big-time effort, to do the same with the offense this winter. This could be a very strong club in ‘10, with or without a full season with Heyward. I’m looking forward to it.
gadawgs
October 28th, 2009
5:35 pm
NO
David O'Brien
October 28th, 2009
5:38 pm
Don B: Good catch. Pedro Gomez is one of only two of 23 ESPN guys who picked the Phillies, and he was also a baseball writer at the Miami Herald when I was at the Sun-Sentinel, before he went to ESPN. Anyway, that’s what was lodged sideways in my brain when I typed that.
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
5:38 pm
Freeman just doubled. 3-4 on the day.
Jason
October 28th, 2009
5:38 pm
Pedro Gomez in game 2? Great blog DOB, glad to have a little Braves talk during the World Series. Trade JJ? Uh, no, no and no.
Vinings Jim
October 28th, 2009
5:38 pm
DOB – great blog – of course, you do it the day I’m trying to pack and am about 5 days behind where I should be, but at least I could read it while eating….
Einstein
October 28th, 2009
5:40 pm
Excellent article DOB, but don’t you mean Pedro Martinez rather than Pedro Gomez against A J Burnett in game two? I like Pedro, too.
Wayne in Utah (WWRFD)
October 28th, 2009
5:41 pm
Art
I haven’t seen your name here before, but then again, my visits have been more sporadic the past 2-3 months. I am glad you weren’t here when I mentioned trading him in the past either. I bet you would have said something that would have hurt my tender feelings.
Wayne in Utah (WWRFD)
October 28th, 2009
5:47 pm
TRADE JURRJENS!!! I can’t believe anybody would be that stupid! What an idiot! It’s a crime shame that folks that would make such suggestions are allowed to exist on a blog where nothing real stated really counts anyway. (unless of course, if you are Paul Dense, who FW gets most of his inspiration from)
BossLady
October 28th, 2009
5:52 pm
I don’t think any GM would trade a pitcher before his time when he can win games like JJJ. I would think it would be difficult to bring a top hitter in here when there is just not a “scrappy urgency” to win that the Braves do not have in the clubhouse. The last set of games with the Marlins and Nationals reflected their “laid back” attitude toward winning. The Phillies would not give up in game until the last out of the game. Seemed to me the Braves gave in around the 7th and never tried to show back up. I watched about 120 games at home and at Turner.
When we had a lead it was a winner ONLY if we kept the lead, but when the lead was gone it was gone for good in that game. Some players should be traded just for that reason regardless of their skills. The attitude towards the game and winning is just as important as skills.
Mixxo
October 28th, 2009
5:54 pm
Trade JJ?
Absolutely not.
Wayne in Utah (WWRFD)
October 28th, 2009
5:54 pm
BossLady
Name names.
Wayne in Utah (WWRFD)
October 28th, 2009
5:55 pm
Enter your comments here
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
5:56 pm
Oops….fat fingers
ugaaccountant
October 28th, 2009
5:57 pm
I’ve proposed trading him – but for either Braun or maybe Fielder can’t recall which. Highly unlikely the mutual interest and salary needs would match up, but in theory I would trade him for an MVP bat.
I believe the “luck metrics” P.W.H. was discussing. That is one of the reasons I liked getting Vasquez is because he was so “unlucky” in the past.
Joe Schmoe
October 28th, 2009
5:59 pm
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
5:34 pm
Interesting exercise:
If you had to trade one of the below, which do you trade?
Jair Jurrjens
Yunel Escobar
Ughh I trade neither of them. LOL, I dunnon. I think Escobar is just as valuable to this young team as is Jurrjens.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:00 pm
Good Blog DOB
I have mentioned trading JJ, but i was just throwing an idea out there, i do not support the idea unless we get overwelmed.
Were all gonna be dissapointed about who our new Cleanup hitter will be. All the early reports i’ve seen the Braves most likely LF candidates are Nady, J.Fox, Willingham, The Braves simply wont pay for offense, but they’ll open up the checkbook to pitchers all the time. This team is one big bat from being so dangerous with the best starting pitching in place already…. Sign a closer , sign Rochy and Add the righthanded bat, Playoff bound we are….
Joe Schmoe
October 28th, 2009
6:01 pm
Escobar is just as valuable to this team as Jurrjens in my opinion.
njbraves
October 28th, 2009
6:01 pm
No way the Braves trade JJ, it doesn’t make any sense. They need all the top tier, low pay scale players they can get. What they need to do is get Lowe out of town as soon as humanly possible, and put that $45 million to better use.
Duke
October 28th, 2009
6:01 pm
Quality blog DOB. Well said. Phillies in 6, already made the bet on betus
C from Marietta
October 28th, 2009
6:02 pm
If the Braves trade JJ. I am done with them and I have been a life long fan. However, if they do something that stupid. It’s over.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:03 pm
Joe Schmoe
Your correct on that, considering SS is thin in the minors on talent, he is a great player and is cheap
abwright
October 28th, 2009
6:04 pm
DOB, thanks for the new blog. and, well said! I hope JJ stays with the Bravos for a good long time. I really enjoy watching him pitch.
Lew, from the previous blog, … I agree with everything you said regarding the near future for the rotation. I would love to see JJ, Hanson, Hudson, Vazquez, Kawakami for the next two years.
However, if Vazquez and the Braves cannot reach an extension, would you rather have JJ, Hanson, Hudson, Lowe, Kawakami for the next two years OR JJ, Hanson, Hudson, Vazquez, Kawakami for 2010 and a mystery starter for 2011?
The only way I would trade Vazquez instead of Lowe is if V. is only available for next year. Then, I would say, get the best deal while his stock is uber-high. Good thing I’m not the GM nor does the GM listen to me!
nolie
October 28th, 2009
6:05 pm
Dude, batting average? Why? (PW)
oh I don’t know, maybe cause a hit is always worth more than a walk? Walks are great, hits are greater. Get somebody who can do both. It doesn’t have to be an either/or condition. I’ll take a 280/380 guy over a 250/390 guy-most everything else being relatively equal- every day and so would most GMs
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:05 pm
They eventaully will prolly trade em. In the coming years. They wont give no one top dollar (Except Lowe) Boris will be dying to get him on the open market.
All I'm Saying Is...
October 28th, 2009
6:06 pm
Because of how they conduct themselves mentally and physically, Hanson and Jurrjens are the future of the Braves pitching staff. Keep them both and, in fact, sign them to long term extensions prior to the expiration of their arbitration eligibility.
LET’S GO BRAVES!
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
6:07 pm
C from Marietta
I said the same thing about Lillibridge, but I came back…..
DHD
October 28th, 2009
6:08 pm
Hell no!!!!! Keep all of the pitchers. you NEVER have enough. Somebody always goes down. See the Boston Red Sox.
Lew
October 28th, 2009
6:08 pm
abwright-He is coming off of arguably his best season. He likes Bobby Cox and playing in Atlanta is closer to his home in Puerto Rico than he’s ever been. He’s obviously comfortable pitching in a pitcher’s park for the first time in his career. I would be willing to bet he’d sign an extension.
Lew
October 28th, 2009
6:08 pm
DHD-Then which one do you not pitch?
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:09 pm
JUst think of the talent we would have now if we never traded for Tex…….. Might have been a fair trade for us if we would have just signed the MVP caliber player…… We let a gold glove switch hitting mvp caliber 1stbaseman just walk away, it kills me thinking about that trade what if???? lol
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
6:09 pm
abwright
If I were the GM, we would be called the Pirates-South!
ugaaccountant
October 28th, 2009
6:09 pm
On the last blog, several of us were discussing getting a Houston OF. I say we trick em, Frank Wren style. Start out discussing something reasonable like Lowe for Lee. Then offer to downgrade to either Pence or Bourne!
I am only 90% kidding, because I feel like he sort of did this getting McLouth and Vasquez.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
6:12 pm
Lew
If not for the salary issues with Lowe, I think I would keep all 6 pitchers until the middle of the spring. But, I understand the salary constraints we have too, so I fully expect FW to deal Lowe in the first month after the WS is over. Even if he gets less than we think he should, as doing otherwise is going to hamper his other moves.
Would you go for a Lowe for Willingham or Lowe for Fox trade?
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:12 pm
Carlos Lee has a no trade clause, but i dont see why he wouldnt waive that to come to Atlanta which is way ahead when it comes to contending.
Lowe wouldnt be enough to land him anyways, Lee does have a big contract but he does produce but still bit overpaid but they’d never do it.
Hopefully Wren has some tricks and surprises this offseason cause i just dont see a real legit cleanup guy coming to Atlanta.
ugaaccountant
October 28th, 2009
6:13 pm
VA Brave Fan – The money would have basically worked to sign Tex and forego signing Lowe, if we had went with one of our rookies instead of Lowe. Now 1 year later we’re basically trying to undo that decision by getting a cleanup hitter and trading Lowe.
If only Wren had seen it that way to begin with. Although in fairness, our fanbase had basically conceded on ever signing Tex and was begging for more pitching focus.
abwright
October 28th, 2009
6:14 pm
Lew, I agree (and hope) that V. signs an extension. But, I’m a bird-in-hand kinda guy. Til it’s done, I hedge.
Wayne, it’s a good thing you’re not the GM, either!
Later, ya’ll. I’m heading home.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
6:16 pm
ugaaccountant
One of the main reasons for dealing Lowe for a bat is to get rid his salary load. The Astros, I believe, would not be interested in picking up our large salary, then giving us one of their affordable players.
Some folks were saying Lee for Lowe, which I sort of understand, from a salary standpoint, BUT, I really don’t think we want him in our outfield, plus it does nothing to help us sign LaRoche or a reliever.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
6:18 pm
ugaaccountant
Did you really think we had a prayer of signing Tex as a FA? When he wouldn’t extend, I had no illusion he would sign with us. He was gone 2 years ago.
Country Boy
October 28th, 2009
6:18 pm
Aren’t you the same “journalist” that whinned all of last off-season for Braves to trade Yunel ( and
others) for pitcher Jake Peavy. 2009 Peavy – only 16 games pitched and 3 months disabled list.
Yunel – 141 games and .300 avg.
ugaaccountant
October 28th, 2009
6:20 pm
I know the astros don’t want to pick up a 15 mil pitcher, but I actually am pretty confident Wren will be able to sell him to someone and get a good player in return.
I’m asking for too much in Pence or Bourne, but I expect him to surprise us and get someone better than Fox or Willingham types.
I think Lowe still commands a #2 starter trade value and his contract isn’t that bad in that rotation spot.
Warren Haynes for President
October 28th, 2009
6:22 pm
I can’t imagine trading JJ. I am in the “horde starting pitchers” camp. A really solid starting 5 like the Braves could/should have next season is golden in a 162 game schedule. It generally prevents losing streaks or bad June 2006 style meltdowns and you are always in a postion to start an extended winning streak.
tr
October 28th, 2009
6:23 pm
Sure, trade JJ for Pujols if the Cards pick up Big Al’s salary for the next ten years!!!
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:24 pm
Lowe is a good pitcher still, The FA market for Starters is very weak we should have some teams interested in him. But if were not recieveing a simaler contract in return were still gonna have to eat some of his contract… so were not dumping the 15 mil
Warren Haynes for President
October 28th, 2009
6:24 pm
Love the James McMurtry lyrics. Drove to Oxford MS to see him and the Truckers play last Friday. Needless to say, it was awesome.
ugaaccountant
October 28th, 2009
6:24 pm
I don’t understand why we chose not to be in the Tex sweepstakes. I never saw enough to convince me Tex didn’t personally want to be here. I refuse to believe a competitive offer wouldn’t have put us in the discussion. However, I don’t believe anything resembling a competitive offer was ever made, not in 07, 08 or as a free agent.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:24 pm
Pujols should command more that Arod who makes 29.1 million a year…………………………… Pujols is the best player in the game.
taxman kenneth
October 28th, 2009
6:25 pm
The braves are just crazy enough to trade anyone on the team for a rental like they have done in the past. Acquiring Jurrgens was one of the very few good trades they have ever made so getting rid of him would not surprise me at all. The braves gave the farm away for Tex and look where he is tonight, playing first base in the World Series for the money spending Yankees who by the way bought the American League Pennant. They did not win it. The braves have nothing to show for the Tex bum trade so they are capable of making stupid trades and nothing they do would surprise me. They are going to have to do a lot to even compete with the Phillies and that line-up. I am rooting for the phillies to beat the Money crazy yankees in the world series. I would like to see a sweep.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
6:26 pm
Not that I think we should do it, but people mention Jurrjens in a trade 1) because we have a starting pitching surplus, and 2) because he’ll get an enormous return (probably the top hitter that we so desparately need). It’d be like Hamilton for Volquez.
But some people don’t seem to understand that trades need to be equal in value. Which is why everybody wants to get rid of Lowe. Of our 6 pitchers (assuming we re-sign Hudson) Lowe is the least exciting and the oldest and has and will have the biggest contract.
So by the logic of so many people on here… “Hey! I know Lowe sucked last year, and he’s old, and he’s got a big contract, but he’s had a sub-3 ERA before and you should probably give us a good hitter or a nice prospect, please. Thanks! TTYL!”
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:28 pm
We should have signed Tex before he even made it to FA. Give the man a good offer from the start, he didnt want to play in Atl cause we prolly offered a bullcrap contract named Hometown Discount from the start, instead of paying the player on how they produce. Yeah if we would have signed Tex we wouldnt have had the money to spend on pitchers but this organization is great at developing young pitchers and we couldnt have been fine. Tex got a crap 1st offer is why he totally didnt want to be here, we prolly acted like he was Chipper or somthing and offered 13 mil a year, for one of the best players in the game thats an insult.
nolie
October 28th, 2009
6:30 pm
Would I after the “scolding” I just received? For a handful of positional players, yes. (Wayne)
sure, so would I. I agree that pitcher’s careers are chancier and I agree a bit with PW that he might have had a better year than his talent would lead one to expect.
He’s good though, and right now he’s cheap so it would take an excellent offer to tempt me, but like PW said, if it improves the team now and likely in the future-I’m sure it would be considered. It’s just kinda unlikely.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:32 pm
i just dont understand how the Braves will pay 15 mil a year for a 36 y/o pitcher but never do that with bats. Bats play everyday , not every five days. Yes this team could win if they had some speed but they dont. We got good hitters, just no speedsters and sluggers. Got to have one of the other to go along with our great pitching and we’ll be back in the post season.
Kris in NC
October 28th, 2009
6:34 pm
It seems Ken Rosenthal is reporting on FoxSports.com that Tim Hudson is close to signing a 3 yr deal with an option for a 4th yr. That the deal will be done by the end of the week. DOB, can you confirm this? This was from a source that Ken Rosenthal got this information from.
As we all know, the last time Rosenthal used a source about information on Huddy, it turned out to be not to be true and Huddy had to make a statement to refute it.
As for JJ, why in the heck would the Braves even entertain the thought of trading him? I think Frank can sit down and work out a deal with the Agent from you know where to keep him here for long time. If JJ wants to stay in Atlanta, he will let Boras know that. We all think Agents employ the players, it is the players who pay these idiots to get these outrageous contracts ala A-Rod, CC and Tex.
I love Hanson and JJ anchoring this staff for yrs to come. When you got guys like Tommy and JJ, who want to get better, willing to listen to guys like Javy, Lowe and Huddy and ask questions, why trade either of them. The fans would probably hunt Frank Wren down and question his loyalty big time.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
6:34 pm
Many of you speak as if you know what Tex was or wasn’t offered. To be honest, I can’t remember what the talk was before the 2008 season began as far as what was or wasn’t offered to him.
For those of you who know Scott Boras, when (besides Carlos Pena and Kenny Rogers) has he NOT taken a big name player to free agency, and when has that player NOT taken the largest offer?
I think those that would say that we weren’t reasonable with Tex are delusional.
Necromancer
October 28th, 2009
6:35 pm
Yep..The Yankees definitely bought the AL Pennant.
Any player who goes over to the Yankees is the equivalent of selling their soul to the devil!
nolie
October 28th, 2009
6:35 pm
I said the same thing about Lillibridge (Wayne)
why? I assured you years ago that Lillibridge would be liliputan. Pay attention
DAP
October 28th, 2009
6:35 pm
P-town, the fact he hasnt had many ABs there proves the braves cant put him there? that deosnt make sense. besides, they could just leave mccann batting cleanup and bat swisher somewhere else if they got him. no biggie.
also, cantu is a big step down from laroche. there is no way cantu is a good option for the braves. my opinion on 1st base is they need to resign laroche or get someone better. that means no cantu or konerko.
unrelated, im picking the phillies in 7, they can and will win as long as they win at least one of the first two games.
Necromancer
October 28th, 2009
6:37 pm
Watch out..if JJ becomes a free agent…he’ll sell his soul to the devil,er,Yankees as well.
Remember who his agent is…
Ed Glennon
October 28th, 2009
6:38 pm
I really miss seeing little dribblers hit to the second baseman. So how about trading Jurrjens for Casey Kotchman or maybe a three way trade that brings us Brent Lillibridge back. Trading Jurrjens – are you kidding?
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:38 pm
Boris will just say hey JJ listen to me you gotta wait it out let these guy fight over you we gotta float some rumors that your clse to singing with so and so to get a better offer run this up high as we can. The yankees\mets/redsox would be all over this kid and can eaisly outbid us. Yes its truly the players choice, but money walks bullsh1t talks
Necromancer
October 28th, 2009
6:39 pm
Oh yeah..trading JJ is a STOOOPIIDDD idea!
nolie
October 28th, 2009
6:41 pm
Any player who goes over to the Yankees is the equivalent of selling their soul to the devil! (Necromancer)
We need to sic Dean & Sam on to them
BTW, don’t necromancers do that too?
yall are crazy
October 28th, 2009
6:42 pm
How could any of you people possibly want to trade JJ? He’s our best pitcher! What are you, nuts?
Sam The Man
October 28th, 2009
6:43 pm
KEEP JJ AND VASQUEZ. LET HUDSON WALK AND USE THAT MONEY FOR A YOUNG, BIG BAT.
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
6:43 pm
321,000 per month in spousal support? That’s outlandish!
I gotta say, if that report DOB posted is true, giving her co-ownership would be a crime. Now if Frankie screwed up, that’s a different story althogether, isn’t it?
ugaaccountant
October 28th, 2009
6:43 pm
I agree Necromancer. I say now is the time to sit down and offer JJJ a new contract 10 years at DOUBLE his current salary. You distract Boras for me while I get JJJ the paperwork.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:45 pm
I just dont see Hanson AND JJ both of them anchoring the staff for years to come. If they continue improving and hell there already really really good pitchers , there both gonna command the big big bucks that comes with top notch starting pitching, i dont see braves locking both of them up, unless there offered contracts like McCanns and Frenchy offers. Maybe they will, we just wont have much money to spend on other positions. I’m just being realistic, its all about the money
ugaaccountant
October 28th, 2009
6:45 pm
ya’ll are crazy – I would have to say JJJ is now our 3rd best pitcher for 2010 behind Vasquez and Hanson, although 2009 was ridiculously close for all 3.
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
6:47 pm
Why would she even need access to 5-star hotels and a corporate jet if she’s getting 300K a month? My Lord, I couldn’t spend all that if I tried…
TS
October 28th, 2009
6:47 pm
If the Braves can trade Derek Lowe’s full contract for even a bowl of rice this offseason I will eat my shirt.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:47 pm
Sam the Man
There inst any young bats to sign. We cant compete for Bay or Holliday. We have to trade for one.
MtnDawg
October 28th, 2009
6:50 pm
DOB, thanks for the best blog in this rag. Absolutely NO WAY should we trade JJ. And dont even think about trading Vasquez, he was the steadiest of all the pitchers this year! If we can shed Loew’s over priced/under performing contract that would be a major win and maybe create some room for the much needed bat. Only question is, who would be so desperate?
KK performed nicely against the tougher opponents but had letdowns against mid level teams, although he did show promise. Sign Huddy if at a discount, but with performance restrictions, and shop for the outfield big bat until the Kid is ready.
DAP
October 28th, 2009
6:51 pm
vabravefanI just dont see Hanson AND JJ both of them anchoring the staff for years to come.
i think they are under team control for 5 and 4 more years, respectivly. that counts as “years to come” in my book.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:52 pm
Lowe for Bradley NOOOO
Lowe for Mathews IDK
there are planty more bad contracts out there but i think Lowe is more valuble than most of them.
Trading Vasquez could land us a true legit Hitter , but he is so important to this staff.
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
6:53 pm
I can see JJ and Hanson anchoring the staff for at least the next 4 years, vabravesfan…
And I do think they extend Vazquez once they get Hudson’s extension done and take care of the rest of their offseason business.
McFann Ô
October 28th, 2009
6:54 pm
DAP besides, they could just leave mccann batting cleanup
AAAAAGGH!!
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
6:57 pm
Steve
I would dang sure like to try (to spend that much money, that is)!
If I could get that for ONE month, I would be frickin set for life in 5 years!
But then again, if I had that kind of money, it would probably go to my head, and I would have it spent in no time. Yeah, I think the 5 star request is reasonable…..
ugaaccountant
October 28th, 2009
6:58 pm
Interesting dilema on what compensation she’s entitled to. As the cheating spouse, I contend she is due $0 in future spousal support in a fairly easy decision. People need to quit cheating period.
The family assets to be split 50/50 are obviously quite complex and who knows how many agreements, pre-nups etc. have been filed.
Her job – It sounds like she was fired without cause. However, it seems they are trying to build a case that she wasn’t a good employee and thus may be able to win this as a firing “for cause”.
Harrasment in the workplace – based on that article I see no merit to such a claim. Of course some people won’t like a cheating wife, but they are perfectly entitled not to like her, no matter what her title is.
Pretending she’s a co-owner – that’s crap. if she signed her rights away, she should get no part of the team in a settlement.
Anyway, lawyers might make millions on this one depending on how clear cut these issues are.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
6:59 pm
DAP ,
well yeah thats good i want them to keep both as long as possible, That makes JJ even more valuble. Hell we should be able to land a package simlar or more of a return like what we gave away for Tex.
If a team needs pitching , they trade the house. JJ should command a 30+ outfielder with good power and a handful of prospects right???
But i dont want them to trade em unless we are overwelmsed with a offer like that….. But Lowe isnt going to land a cleanup hitter, So will have Bad Back Willingham batting cleanup and playing Left ouch kinda like Loaf with just a bit more power.
Why cant this team add one legit bat , last year they added 3 legit pitchers.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
7:01 pm
If Kelly Johnson were on another team, I would trade JJ to get him back!
(thought you might like that RHR!)
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
7:03 pm
Yankees in 6….there, I said it.
Travis
October 28th, 2009
7:03 pm
Once and for all…the Tex trade was not done by Frank Wren…JS did it so please stop blaming Wren for all the fallout. It would have been great to retain Mark but he wanted to play for a contender. The Braves weren’t there yet.
rufues
October 28th, 2009
7:05 pm
Lets trade Jair Jurrjens, and get bring back Don Sutton, that about the level of the Braves mentality. They have become a joke, they don’t think, they’ll most likely try to bring back the three scrooges. They Braves big wheel are making to much money and have to much free time on their hands. They ignore the fact that one should not throw the baby out with the water. But,to no ones surprise on how the Braves do things like, picking any players or picking quality players. Maybe they just can’t tell the different’s or maybe just don’t care, on what they put on the field next year.
Delbert D.
October 28th, 2009
7:07 pm
Was 2009 a down year for Chipper, or is the cliff? Trade for some value and prospects, and free up $$$ to sign a big bat? With the same pitching, we still finish 2nd-4th without a big hitter.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
7:11 pm
Cleanup hitters: Nick Swisher? Xavier Nady? Josh Willingham? Jake Fox? Jorge Cantu? Juan Rivera? Milton Bradley?
WOW! Not too exciting, huh.
Maybe Frank works out a blockbuster, and sends Lowe, Prado and Freeman somewhere for a legit cleanup hitter.
Jerry
October 28th, 2009
7:11 pm
Agreed. You do not trade JJ & you do not trade Hanson (the new Tom Terrific). And you do not trade Vazquez this year. Maybe after next season if you cannot sign him. Everyone else is on the block.
Braveheart
October 28th, 2009
7:13 pm
Worrying about what Jurrjens does as a free agent 4 years from now with Boras is silly. Alot can happen between now and then. Injuries, burn outs, he gets real money for the first time in his life in arbitration and gets fat and happy, he marries the wrong woman, he marries the right woman and gets a bit too content, he gets involved with the wrong woman who screws with his head and emotions, a new manager and pitching coach come in and screw with his head, emotions, mechanics, mound presence, his method and plan of attack, his agent screws with his head and goals, he sits in an arbitration hearing and hears the front office kill him, he reads the newspaper or a blog one morning and sees a writer or some blogger killing him and he gets all screwed in the head. Who the hell knows.
Alot of players, especially pitchers, look great when they’re young, lean, and happy because their life is relatively simple, but then life, love, money, injuries, changes in environment and circumstances, etc., happen, and they get derailed. Just enjoy him for the six years you have club control over him. Chances are he won’t make it to free agency completely unscathed in way or another. Then you decide if he’s worth the money once he’s run the gauntlet and had his character tested in so many more ways that he’s presently encountered.
Would I be shocked if the Braves traded him? No. The Braves FO are some cutthroat mofos who usually assess their own talent so well that they know just when it’s time to hold ‘em, and when it’s time to fold ‘em.
I think he pitched above his head a bit this year, but I dunno. The kid seems like a sponge. One year he’s emulating Hudson, and he’s getting the ball down, and inducing alot of grounders. The next year he emulates Vazquez, and he’s learning how to rise the ball up, and induce lazy fly balls. The kid’s kinda scary intellectually with his ability to retain the things he’s being taught and that he’s seeing, and, more importantly, being able to then adapt and apply what he’s retained in given game situations.
Sure, the kid’s been a bit lucky with an ERA 54 points lower in his career than his FIP, but Tom Glavine also had a career ERA 41 points lower than his career FIP in 4400+ innings. Hudson has a career ERA 30 points lower than his career FIP. So, who knows? Tom Glavine and Tim Hudson haven’t often been accused of being lucky. It’s usually just said Glavine and Hudson know how to pitch. Maybe that’s what we’ll also be saying about Jurrjens one day. But who knows? All we can do is wait and see.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
7:13 pm
I’m not blaming Wren for that, i’m blaming the organization.
Wren has done a really good job, only problem i have is he banked on Frenchy bouncing back he banked on him being the big bat we needed. Also banked on Shafer….. Thats like Wren saying this offseason well we got Heyward coming up i’m not gonna add any good bats to the roster.
He added McLouth which was a good pick up and will help for years to come. Rochy was good but he isnt a impact guy for a whole season. But we need a real impact guy to hit for power. Or we need a real Legit Lead off guy that can steal 40 bags, and play great D. We have niether.
We got amazing pitching to go with good hitting players with no pop or speed.
We could use some speed, McLouth, Rochy(if signed) Escobar, Chipper, McCann can all hit 20 homers for us, we could live with out the big bopper in the 4 hole , but not with bad D and no speed.
StingerSplash
October 28th, 2009
7:14 pm
First, who is that next to Jamie McCourt in the picture?
Second, trade Jair Jurrjens? Really? Seriously? Um, the fine folks from Milledgeville will see you now.
Third, Phillies in six. Yes, I’m a Braves fan. Yes, I’m picking and backing the Phils. They’ve got a lot of guys who seem like good guys and are fun to watch — Howard, Rollins, Utley, Werth. I think Victorino can be a little bit of a tool on the field, but he’s fun to watch, too.
Smug factor is low among the Phillies. It is high among the Yankees.
desibrave
October 28th, 2009
7:18 pm
DOB! We all love Jair Jurgens in ATL and wish he is a brave forever but he is the realistic side of it. He is a Scott Bora$$ client and no way he is not going to test the free agency in 3 years from now. Unless Braves get bought by Ted Turner back (guy with deep pockets) I don’t think we will be able to compete for him in free agent market. So this is the best time to trade him. But, if we trade him we need a POWERFUL bat someone who is locked up for 4 to 5 years. someone like eg Miguel Cabrera, I am not saying we need to get Cabrera but someone who is like him , can hit 35+ Homers, 100RBIs+ , and locked for 5 years.
We don;t want to trade him for prospects who are in AAA and promised to do good in future but not tested at majors yet. What we need is a proven hitter signed for a 4 or 5 years.
Gerran McNurney
October 28th, 2009
7:18 pm
Who cares about pitching, tell Boobie to retire now, tell Chumper to tend his ranch, Mexicans are sneaking in thru his property and dieing. Deal Soriano and Gonzo for a bat and get John Rocker back as closer…..woooohooooo…World Series here we come!!!!!
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
7:20 pm
Yeah, if she tried to insulate herself from being indebted when they bought the team trying to claim co-ownership now seems pretty shady (with one “d”).
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
7:20 pm
WW
That was damned depressing…….but true.
Glynn
October 28th, 2009
7:20 pm
Noooo, is this a joke?
Im no Scot Boras fan, and I do believe in staying away from his clients as much as possible, but keep Jurjens!!
Oh, and bring back Rochey!
Joe
October 28th, 2009
7:21 pm
Never trade Jurrjens but try to trade Lowe or Kawakami.
ccrider
October 28th, 2009
7:24 pm
DOB, One thing you didn’t mention about Jair Jurrjens is he grew up in Curacao a big Braves fan. His father was also a huge Braves fan and dreamed of him playing for them one day.
I seem to remember a certain Centerfielder from Curacao that gave a hometown discount to stay with the Braves and I think there is a good chance Jair might instruct Boras to take a good offer before free agency. I can see a day of Jurrjens, Hanson, Teheren, Minor and Medlen anchoring a World Series team.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
7:26 pm
ccrider
i sure hope so about that.
MIBravesFan
October 28th, 2009
7:27 pm
I totally agree trading JJ is an absolute no-go, for all the reasons DOB cited – his talent, his pitching smarts, his age, the years left of having him under control, and his character. There is no realistic scenario justifying even entertaining the idea.
larry
October 28th, 2009
7:30 pm
trade jurrjens? insane. JJ could anchor this staff for the next decade. trade him and he will be the next adam wainwright- taking another team to the playoffs while the bravos wonder what could have been
ccrider
October 28th, 2009
7:33 pm
VaBraveFan; You and me both. If we can keep McCann, Escobar, Prado, Heyward, Freeman, Schafer(Yes contrary to others, I think he is going to be our CF for a long time) find a replacement for Chipper and A big bopper for LF we will be in position to do just that. Don’t have to worry about bullpen, lots of big arms in the minors: Kimbrell, the Delgados, Hale, Etc.
bbraves
October 28th, 2009
7:39 pm
Even though he had a career year I would trade Vazquez. He only has one more year left on his contract and more likely to receive a better return by trading him. Wouldn’t mind if Lowe was traded though but don’t know if many teams would be interested. Whatever the Braves do not need to trade JJ after next year would look at signing him to an extension.
reagan
October 28th, 2009
7:39 pm
Candler (5:27) you said KK was 39………he is only 34 yers old.
braveman
October 28th, 2009
7:40 pm
according to mlbtraderumors.com…. ken rosenthal says huddy will be inked in the coming days.
bye bye jair. (G)
Anthony
October 28th, 2009
7:40 pm
I can’t believe that people would want to trade JJ. Give me a top of hte line starter over a top of the line hitter any day of the week and I’ll take my odds.
In the WS, bottom line is that the Phils are going to have to beat CC at one point or another it seems. One of the other yankee pitchers will win another game in my opinion. Thus, I think tonight is critical for the Phils. Everyone expects the yanks to pull it out tonight with CC. But if the Phils, behind Lee, take Game 1, I think it could be a quick series with the Phils winning it all.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
7:42 pm
What about Speed??? We dont need a big bopper if this team can run and play defense. We had one of the worse defenses in the majors last year. And we didnt steal many bases. This team can hit, we just dont have any impact power or speed. If i recall i think single players out stole the whole Atlanta club last year lol. Add a real leadoff guy and drop McLouth lower where he’ll hit better.
Lowe for Pierre hell with it….. lol would they do that????? stuck with a high paid guy that cant hit a homer for 2 seasons
MIBravesFan
October 28th, 2009
7:42 pm
“Smug factor is low among the Phillies. It is high among the Yankees.” -
StingerSplash
So true!
This is a tough Series because it’s hard to root for Philly to win it back-to-back and have the reigning champs again in our own division, but it’s sickening to think of the Yankees flat out buying the championship, and if they win, that’s exactly what they will have done. As between the two, I hope Philly wins. If they do I think it will in 6 games; if it goes to a game 7, that’s another story.
braveman
October 28th, 2009
7:43 pm
jair is not going anywhere. once when hudson is signed later in the week, we will turn our attention into moving lowe. if that doesnt work out… we will probably try and move kk. relax fellas…
Flabravesfan
October 28th, 2009
7:44 pm
If the Braves trade JJ, I may not watch them for a long time. Even the thought of it pisses me off….
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
7:44 pm
On Bowman’s latest blog he thinks Huddy’s extension will be worth 24-27 MM over three years and signed within the next few days.
If that’s true, it’s a great deal for the Braves…
larry
October 28th, 2009
7:45 pm
Huddy is my favorite Braves player, and even then i rather see him traded than JJ.
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
7:47 pm
We dont need a big bopper if this team can run and play defense.
I disagree. We need that big bopper and we need it bad. The defense? Yeah, that definitely needs to improve, without a doubt. But even though it sucked last year, it didn’t really hurt us all that much, since we were like 3rd (ish) in total runs allowed in the NL last year or something like that. Plus, Garret Anderson will be gone and Heyward will be in right at some point, so there’s two spots upgraded right there.
CB
October 28th, 2009
7:47 pm
Bowman is saying Hudson will be signed for 3yrs,24-27mil. Good sign for the Braves if that happens.
CB
October 28th, 2009
7:48 pm
Steve, you are too fast for me!
CJ
October 28th, 2009
7:51 pm
No, I don’t think the Braves have any plans at all to trade JJ. However, if they were offered Evan Longoria, Matt Kemp, Adrian Gonzalez, Justin Upton, or Ryan Braun for him they would be stark raving MAD not to accept – and quickly. That being said, JJ isn’t enough for any of the players I just mentioned so it would never happen.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
7:51 pm
Steve from OH
Man i right with you, i’m just trying to look at a different view. We are not getting a impact power guy without trading Vasquez or giving a package for someone. Lowe or KK will not give us a cleanup hitter. We really do need a true bopper, but if u add impact speed and play great D with this pitching we are in good shape. All i’;m saying is i rather get some speed and defense rather than get a guy like Willingham as there answer for LF and the righthanded power bat.
McFann Ô
October 28th, 2009
7:52 pm
That was a pretty good National Anthem!
McFann Ô
October 28th, 2009
7:52 pm
And that about does it for WS watching for this fann!
RHR
October 28th, 2009
7:53 pm
If Kelly Johnson were on another team, I would trade JJ to get him back!
If we’re lucky he WILL be on another team soon!
bobby
October 28th, 2009
7:54 pm
The only way I would consider trading JJ would be for Ryan Howard.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
7:55 pm
I read somthing about the Cubs having a good amount of interest in Kelly Johnson, not sure what we could get for him, but it would be nice to see him somewhere away from Atl.
I dont understand what happened with him, they switched his positions dozens of times, in the minors he was the number 3-4 hitter and power guy he comes to the majors we want him to be paitent and be a lead off guy instead of letting him be himself so idk , he needs a change of scenery
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
7:57 pm
but if u add impact speed and play great D with this pitching we are in good shape. All i’;m saying is i rather get some speed and defense rather than get a guy like Willingham as there answer for LF and the righthanded power bat
Yeah, but when you’re in our situation you have to prioritize. Power, defense, then speed. Sometimes defense and speed go together, sometimes not. Speed alone is useless, without hitting ability. And since we need hitting ability first and foremost, why not get as much of it as we can?
McFann Ô
October 28th, 2009
7:57 pm
Not a bad throw!
Nick Swisher Walks A Ton
October 28th, 2009
7:58 pm
TRADE JURRJENS FOR NICK SWISHER!!
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
7:58 pm
ya’ll are crazy – I would have to say JJJ is now our 3rd best pitcher for 2010 behind Vasquez and Hanson, although 2009 was ridiculously close for all 3.
Exactly right. Though I think Hudson (and possibly even Lowe) could be in the mix for best 2010 starter as well. Basically, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if any of the 5 are the best or worst.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
7:59 pm
bobby
interesting idea lol, we trade JJ and Freeman for Howard the Phils get 1 proven ace for 3 more season very cheap and a future 1st baseman, and drop Howards big salary and save money , they use some of that get Rochy. lol We still got a awesoem 5 man staff and a big Cleanup hitter hahaha
i crack myself up thought i would throw that crazy spew on things
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 28th, 2009
8:02 pm
VaBraveFan
I would make that deal (for Howard) so fast, it would be done already….
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
8:03 pm
Yeah, but when you’re in our situation you have to prioritize. Power, defense, then speed.
Yep! I think we need to improve on defense on our own, though. Spend more time practicing it, make it a point of interest to focus on D, lose weight, etc.. With that, I don’t see any reason the Braves can’t be top-half in defensive efficiency in 2010. Especially sans Loaf, plus J Hey and Schafer.
Brave4Life
October 28th, 2009
8:05 pm
DOB, I agree 100% that you dont trade JJ. Hanson and JJ are the foundation of our rotation and will be our 1-2 punch for several more years and I would love to see us work something out long term for him…remember, JJ was very excited when he was traded to Atl as his father is a long time braves fan so we may be able to get some kind of a discount when resigning him.
As far as who we trade, I think it will have to be Javy. I would rather it be Lowe or KK but I dont know if there is a team that would be willing to take one of them and give anything of real value. Both have very big contracts when you look at there production.
As far as Minor is concerned, I know its early but I watched him pitch at the end of last year in Rome and he wasnt exactly impressive in my opinion so I wouldnt put him in the fifth starter role just yet.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
8:06 pm
Steve from OH
I agree man , just saying we are not getting a impact power bat. I rather have a real lead off guy that can steal 40 bases hit around 290. and play great D, than a injury prone slow outfileder who might hit 25 homers.
But yes i rather have a 275. 35 100 type of guy but i dont see that happening.
Willingham,Fox,Nady dont belong between Chip and McCann.
I’ve seen people mentioning Swisher , i was big on him when the trade rumors were swirling about him coming here. He is under contract for few more season at a pretty good bargain. He can play corner outfield and 1b switch hitter 25-30 homer guy lots of walks, does hit for low average but i do like him. Definlty Considering he only makes around 5 mil a year and could fill in at 1b.
Najeh Davenpoop
October 28th, 2009
8:06 pm
Trading Jurrjens would be, in a word, idiotic.
GTBuzz55
October 28th, 2009
8:08 pm
Trade JJ? Can you say ID10T5? (translation – idiots)
reagan
October 28th, 2009
8:08 pm
VaBrave fan (7:51)….no, they wont……..but….if we make a package deal maybe we can. PS…where in Va. are you from?
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
8:10 pm
reagan
Portsmouth, VA near Norfolk
Wilson
October 28th, 2009
8:12 pm
DOB, I’m curious about your thoughts on the Cards hiring McGwire as hitting coach? You may have addressed it already in the previous blog and I missed it. I also wonder what you think about Selig and MLB’s reaction to the hire?
Here’s a good read in regards to McGwire/Selig
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=bryant_howard&id=4602077
Braves Paisan
October 28th, 2009
8:14 pm
Good evening, Braves Beat Blog Denizens:
Bronx Bombers … ’nuff said! I mean, did you see those two young ladies escort YOGI (one of the greatest Series performers ever) out to the mound? It was pure Yankee ju-ju!
Speaking of J-J (segues, anyone?) — Trading JJ would be insane, and there is no tangible evidence that Wren is so afflicted. Yes, there is the specter of Boras looming large and ugly on the horizon. Until that day comes, JJ is EVERYTHING you could possible want in a young pitcher. Keep him as long as we possibly can!
– B.P.
EPF
October 28th, 2009
8:17 pm
The Braves were dumb enough to trade Adam Wainwright. Why would anybody be surprised if they trade Jurrjens?
BIOMASS
October 28th, 2009
8:18 pm
Excellent pre-game ceremony in NY. Classy. (And I hate NY!)
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
8:19 pm
just saying we are not getting a impact power bat. I rather have a real lead off guy that can steal 40 bases hit around 290. and play great D,
I don’t necessarily think that’s true. I think (given a proper constuction of the pitching staff by Wren) that there will be several good options available to us that would satisfy our need for a power bat. Wholeheartedly agree on the great D part, but intentionally adding a high speed/low power bat in lieu of a big power bat isn’t going to help our offense. And judging by his comments, Wren agrees (and judging by yours, so do you).
I’m bored.
Dustin
October 28th, 2009
8:20 pm
The braves just need that big bat in the middle of the linup. The problem with the braves wasn’t the pitching, it was the hitting. You have to hope that managment understands that and if they do decide to trade a pitcher, they get that true 4 hitter and move McCann back to 5 in the linup. The braves win 10 more games this year if they had one and probably would have made the playoffs. We should be back next year if managment plays it right. GO BRAVES!!!
Braves Paisan
October 28th, 2009
8:20 pm
Lee looks like he has great stuff so far … could be a classic game!
Rick
October 28th, 2009
8:22 pm
It has been proven over and over time after time. No matter how great the lineup or team might be if you have a totally idiot such as the Braves’ manager then you are not and will not be making it to the playoffs. Maybe after the 2010 season the Braves can start thinking about the possibility of going to another World Series with a manager that knows how to win pennants and not just divisional titles.
BIOMASS
October 28th, 2009
8:25 pm
Wanda Sikes? Again? You’ve got to be kidding.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
8:27 pm
EPF
First off Wainwright never pitched in the majors, he was just a top prospect. Anything could have happened….
JJ has pitched 2 season in the majors and has been great and is only 23 and is under team control for 3-4 more seasons. If the braves did trade them it would have to be a huge return. Somthing like a power hitter around 25-28 y/o under contract for atleast 3 years at a good price, and a top pitching prospect and a top 3b prospect. hell the package could be more, there getting JJ at a cheap price for around 4-5 years in the top of there rotation. Its hard to put a value on JJ , he shouldnt be traded unless someone blows us away….. They wont trade him for a rental thats for sure……
TnBrian
October 28th, 2009
8:28 pm
$24-27m for a pitcher like Hudson? Uh, yeah, that’s a very good deal if true.
On Wren “banking” on Frenchy to have a bounce back ‘09 season… have to remember we don’t have Yank/Boston/Mets money, so a mid-market team like Atlanta kind of has to rely on what’s in front of them most of the time. Chill, that’s just the reality for us Braves fans.
keylargo
October 28th, 2009
8:28 pm
I have to go with the old standard that a great hitter is more valuable to a team than a great pitcher. Especially with all the other pitching.
If the Braves could trade JJ for Ryan Braun, who is locked up with an extreme back loaded contract for, I think, the next 5 years, I would do it in a heartbeat.
Pitchers can hurt their arms and never be the same again. Almost all injuries to a position player can be repaired. I used this example earlier this off season and a few people hit the ceiling because I mentioned Barry Bonds, but I used his name only because he was a young productive player like Ryan Braun in the early 90’s. Imagine if the Braves had traded Steve Avery after the 1993 season for Bonds. How many World Series do you think the Braves would have now?
falcon21
October 28th, 2009
8:30 pm
JJ has to stay along with a vet. We need to keep Hudson but if I had to choose, I would keep JJ.
the truth...
October 28th, 2009
8:31 pm
Remember John Smoltz coming here from Detroit? Well do you think Detroit ever regretted the trade?
I contend that trading JJ would be akin to what Detroit did by sending Smoltz here…..
cvbraves
October 28th, 2009
8:33 pm
VaBraveFan…Born and raised in Portsmouth, too. Now reside just outside St. Augustine, Fl.
Agree with most…Braves won’t consider trade for Jair.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
8:35 pm
Steve from OH
I’m Bored too. lol So who do you think fits the bill to bat between Chip and Mac? And trying to be realistic with the options lol Unless Wren does somthing surprising the option arnt good.
Willingham, Fox, Nady, Swisher, Cantu, Uggla, Guillen, Bradely, Mathews thats just to list a few that have heard to be availble or have bad contracts. My favorite out of those is Swisher what do you think…..
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
8:37 pm
cvbraves
Thats cool man, i stay in the Cradock area, lived here my whole life
Jeff R
October 28th, 2009
8:39 pm
Wren would have to be off his rocker trading Jurrjens. And I don’t think he’s off his rocker. As DOB mentioned, a team builds around talentedf young arms; it doesn’t ship them off.
Hanson and Jurrjens should be virtually untouchable.
The first base dilemma. Wren needs to make a run at LaRoche. Understand that LaRoche wants a three-year deal (or so the reports go). But, perhaps, Wren could offer a bulked up two-year deal with a good buyout on a thrid year option.
I still think loosing LaRoche hurts the team, given there are no really talented one-year rentals on the market.
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
8:40 pm
I don’t really know who the options are because I don’t know what baseball’s internal market looks like. But if Wren can trade Lowe, we absolutely can afford to sign Holliday or Bay. I’d surely prefer Holliday, but I’d be more than happy with either.
None of those guys you listed give me the warm fuzzy feeling. Swisher and Willingham are probably my picks from the group, but I don’t think either are cleanup hitters. But they will improve the club…
anyone is touchable
October 28th, 2009
8:41 pm
I’d hate to trade JJ, he’s less than a year older than Hanson, and a much better pitcher right now. No reason to think they won’t both improve and JJ continues to be better than Hanson. An e.r.a. under three in this age of offensive baseball? Unheard of. BUT, anyone is available if I’m the GM. The price for JJ would be astronomical, I’m talking a Ryan Howard plus a prospect, maybe two, kind of deal. Scott Boras or not, JJ is an unusual combination of talent, great attitude and great work ethic. Gotta keep him unless the players, plural, you get in return are superstars. Same with Vasquez, by the way, with perhaps a little less being expected in return because of Javy’s age. Not much less expected, mind you, but a little less. Hanson has had a good half year, let’s see what happens from here on out. All reports say he is as hard a worker and as good a clubhouse guy as JJ. Hope so, but let’s see before we anoint him the future ace of the staff. Of course, that’s just me…I could be wrong
BIOMASS
October 28th, 2009
8:43 pm
keylargo, the Giants traded for him. How many WS did they win with Bonds?
falcon21
October 28th, 2009
8:45 pm
It’s a fact that we will have to depart with some pitching to get more hitting in Atl. but JJ should not be considered in a trade. cvbraves, St. Augustine is like a home away from home. Love the place!
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
8:47 pm
Jeff R
Maybe Wren could surprise us with a trade involving one of our Starting Pitchers and Freeman for a Slugging Firstbaseman thats already locked up on a contract. We get a big bopper for the long term at 1b Freeman will have oppurtunity elsewhere. And that leaves LF open to a cheaper option maybe someone that can run and play D.
McLouth Schafer Diaz outfield to start until Heyward is called up. if he doesnt start opening day that is. We got Infante, Prado, Blanco, Jones as other options if Schafer doesnt make the team.
Does that make sense or is it too far fetched???
Efrim
October 28th, 2009
8:49 pm
Jair’s perceived value is higher than his actual value, but that doesn’t mean that the Braves should just trade him for an equal offensive piece. Especially when there are other options to fix the holes that this team has.
That’s an unbelieveable contract extension for the Braves if they can ink Hudson for 24-27 million.
Lastly, the Philadelphia Phillies stole Cliff Lee from the Cleveland Indians. Again, I understand that they were cash strapped. But they couldn’t pry one of Taylor, Brown or Drabek? How about D’Arnaud? A cryin shame.
Braves Paisan
October 28th, 2009
8:50 pm
LaRoche is a proven 25 homer guy, with an excellent glove. I am sorry, but Freeman’s numbers — ESPECIALLY his power numbers — weren’t great this year. He hit 2 homers and slugged .342 in 41 games in Mississippi, and “they” say that AA ball is where a lot of prospects get stuck.
nolie
October 28th, 2009
8:51 pm
$24-27m for a pitcher like Hudson? that will surprise me. I would think closer to 30. great deal if it happens
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
8:53 pm
Steve from OH
Trading Lowe wont free up alot money, he will either be traded for a equal bad contract bat, or traded away and we will have to eat some of his salary. I’d love to see Bay or Holliday come here but i dont see the Braves giving them a huge contract 16-20 mil a year like reports have said. We prolly could land one but then we wouldnt have any funds for the bullpen. Best case scenerio is the Braves dumping Lowe without having to eat contract, we might not get a good return for him , but we will have alot more money to solify the bullpen and put a decent outfielder out there. Its just hard seeing the braves making a huge move to aqure that big bat , it could happen tho.
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
8:53 pm
Braves Paisan–I’m not concerned about Freeman’s power numbers yet at all. He’s still very young (especially for AA) and I think what they said about Heyward last year is applicable to Freeman this year–that he needs to learn to use his hands more and use his frame to generate the power that everyone knows is there. I’ve read that he hits moonshots in BP but in the games he’s more of a LD hitter. He’s a big boy and has a lot of positives in his game already, so I have complete confidence he’ll figure it out.
Goldenglove002
October 28th, 2009
8:54 pm
Well, no one is ever untradeable. If I was offered Evan Longoria or Ryan Braun it would of course be tempting. That being said, I completely agree about how there is no need to trade, or even shop JJ. Great young pitchers like this don’t come around to often, and his value is great.
And before everyone else passes over it, is that option part of the speculation that Hudson is close to a 24-27 MIL 3 year deal or have I just missed over something in my time away from putting all focus on baseball?
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
8:56 pm
Well, that’s a big “if”, vabraves. Honestly, I haven’t been following the team/MLB much at all lately so I don’t really know. But if they do rid themselves of all 15MM of his salary, plus KJ’s 2MM and add in Soriano/Gonzo on top of it along with Church’s money and GA’s 2.5MM…the cash will be there.
nolie
October 28th, 2009
8:57 pm
if the yanks win tonight against lee it is gonna make it mighty tough for philly
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
9:04 pm
I’m amazed at how silly and close minded some of these comments are.
People are acting like there’s no better player than Jurrjens in baseball. Get over yourselves, there are plenty of trade scenarios involving Jurrjens that, if they presented themselves (which isn’t likely), Wren would be crazy not to do. Jurrjens is good. He’s a legitimately good pitcher. Young, pre-arb, got all the intangibles, etc… But he ain’t no Felix Hernandez. Don’t kid yourselves.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:10 pm
If we’re lucky he WILL be on another team soon!
No, that other team is lucky
Efrim
October 28th, 2009
9:16 pm
But he ain’t no Felix Hernandez. Don’t kid yourselves.
In terms of starters 26 years of age and under, Felix, Greinke, Lincecum, Verlander and Lester are in an elite group imo. Kershaw too.
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
9:17 pm
Rosenthal, exactly 15 days ago
Rosenthal, today
Can we all agree to never listen to anything Ken Rosenthal says? Ever again?
Soph
October 28th, 2009
9:17 pm
I love Al Horford.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:19 pm
Aw shoot the Hawks game is on! Thanks Soph…
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:20 pm
I too love Al Horford. So maybe there’s hope for me liking Tim Tebow after college. He really is too good of a guy not to like.
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
9:20 pm
Efrim -
In terms of starters 26 years of age and under, Felix, Greinke, Lincecum, Verlander and Lester are in an elite group imo. Kershaw too.
I agree. Hanson, Buchholz, and a few more will join them shortly.
Soph
October 28th, 2009
9:20 pm
You missed most of it! 7 minutes left in the 4th. So far, all offense, no defense.
Greg Olson Homers
October 28th, 2009
9:21 pm
DOB and denizens,
Do you think it would be wise or feasible to simply dump Lowe at this point for basically nothing in return?
We didn’t trade for him so we don’t have a ’sunk cost’ investment. And, if the Hudson rumors are true, we don’t need him. That $15 million is a LOT to free up for signing free agents (like Laroche and another bat).
In fact, (and I am just hypothesizing at this point) you could also turn around with that money and extend Vasquez who has been a journeyman and likes Atlanta so he might sign early. I mean, who here wouldn’t rather have Vasquez under a 3-year contract instead of Lowe?
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:22 pm
I’m not liking Horford’s facial hair
Tomas
October 28th, 2009
9:24 pm
There is no way in hell i’d trade Jurrjens, unless they offer Braun, Longoria, Justin Upton, or Ryan Zimmerman, and even then I’d have a hard time letting go. One thing is for certain, Hanson and Jurrjens are untoachable.
What I really want is the Braves to sign Hudson to 3 years 25 million(8.33mill/per yr), and trade Lowe to a team and get rid of that contract. I really don’t care what they get in return. If the Angels offered Garry Matthews and a prospect for Lowe I’d happily take it.
Thats what I would want, I don’t know if it’s reasonable to hope for that, but it certainly isn’t unreasonable considering Matthews contract is worse than Lowe’s, and he won 15 games pitching in 190 innings, with a history of bounce back seasons.
I’d also sign Xavier Nady to 2 yrs 10 million.
CF Nate Mclouth
2B Martin Prado
3B Chipper Jones
1B Xavier Nady
C Brian McCann
SS Yunel Escobar
LF Matt Diaz
RF Garry Matthews
Non-tender Kelly and Church if unable to trade them. Offer arbitration to Mike Gonzalez, and Adam Laroche(obviously he isn’t going to take it and he is a type B FA). Sign Billy Wagner, and Brandon Lyon to whatever they ask.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:24 pm
I’d like to see Al take the next step, though…he’s only averaging 10 points or so a game.
It’s funny how unbearable Bob Rathbun is when he calls the Braves, but I actually like him doing basketball.
Soph
October 28th, 2009
9:24 pm
I don’t like it either – he looks goofy. Without the beard, he looks funny goofy. With the beard, he looks ugly goofy.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
9:24 pm
I think JJ should be in that group , 2 seasons 72 starts 30 wins 21 losses 3.21 ERA 434 INN just imagine if he had Lowes run support your looking at a 20 game winner.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:25 pm
You know, I’d prefer to keep Jurrjens, but we’re talking like he’s Maddux or Clemens here. If we could get a ready top hitting prospect for him, I’d be all for it.
Soph
October 28th, 2009
9:26 pm
Well, I’m ready to see Marvin Williams & Josh Smith take the next step. Marvin’s gotta stay healthy and Smith has to start making free throws. 50/50 just doesn’t cut it.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:27 pm
Without the beard, he looks funny goofy. With the beard, he looks ugly goofy
Well said. I can’t tell if it’s a new beard or if it just doesn’t grow in thick, but it’s weak.
Random
October 28th, 2009
9:27 pm
What’re ya tryin’ to say, DOB?
JJJ will not be traded?
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:27 pm
Oh, and FYI – the Pacers haven’t scored since I started watching.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:29 pm
Alright, so if Marvin, Josh Smith, and Horford all take the next step, we’ll be fine.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
9:30 pm
JJ Last 10 starts of the season 71.2 innings 5W 2L 1.76 ERA 9 of 10 games he pitched 7 innings or more. Better run support he would be in the mix for the Cy.
Soph
October 28th, 2009
9:31 pm
Oh, and FYI – the Pacers haven’t scored since I started watching.
Well, lucky charms where were you during the first 3 1/2 quarters?
brian
October 28th, 2009
9:33 pm
I agree that in no way should the Braves trade Jurrjens. If the Braves even consider trading him it should be for Ryan Braun or someone of that sort. A young, dominant hitting position player who is under contract for more years than we have jair including his arbitration.
I have to think that FW is drooling over the opportunity of having a core rotation of Jurrjens, Hanson, and Hudson for the next 3 years with some combination of Lowe, Vazquez, Medlen, or eventually Minor filling the next 2 spots in the rotation
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:35 pm
Shoot, they scored…I was hoping I really was lucky. Like I watch the entire Hawks/Lakers game and we win 97-0
David O'Brien
October 28th, 2009
9:37 pm
Either by Friday or early next week for Hudson, I’m told. If it’s not announced in next two days, I don’t think Braves will announce it this weekend since they know it’ll be completely overshadowed by football (a lot of media folks down at UF-Georgia game and in New Orleans for Falcons Monday nighter).
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
9:37 pm
JJ Last 10 starts of the season 71.2 innings 5W 2L 1.76 ERA 9 of 10 games he pitched 7 innings or more. Better run support he would be in the mix for the Cy.
Probably not. I mean, he’d be in the conversation, but probably wouldn’t get serious consideration.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:40 pm
Is the sound on Fox messed up for anyone else?
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:41 pm
Or is it just my TV?
Isenberg
October 28th, 2009
9:42 pm
If the Braves parted ways with Javier Vazquez, the Braves’ rotation would no longer be relevant.
Greg in TN
October 28th, 2009
9:42 pm
Evening folks…
Pitching trumps everything, denizens. Especially quality young pitching under club control for the near term. Frank Wren would have to listen if Milwaukee came calling with Ryan Braun wanting to pry JJJ from the Braves, however I’m pretty confident that said call isn’t coming from the 414 area code.
DOB, was going to comment on the state of affairs in Dodgerland this afternoon, however time kept me from doing so. Quite interesting to see the accusations flying to and fro from the McCourts. This not too long after John Moores being forced to sell the Padres after divorce proceedings began. With the Giants and Diamondbacks being controlled by ownership groups, maybe the NL West won’t become a full fledged soap opera yet.
My gut says Yankees in 6, my heart says 7 scoreless ties.
Justin
October 28th, 2009
9:43 pm
No dont trade jj who ever thinks that needs to have their balls choped off lol
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
9:43 pm
Keep in mind there’s no basis to these JJ rumors. It’s just a bunch of grumbling from the loonies.
Tomas
October 28th, 2009
9:44 pm
What kind of hitter can you get for Javy Vazquez?
keylargo
October 28th, 2009
9:45 pm
Again, Xavier Nady had Tommy John surgery on July 10. AND IT WAS HIS SECOND TJ SURGERY.
Who is going to play 1B for the first 100 or so games next year on this plan?
Nady also has played four innings of 1B in the last three years.
Wait until the reality of a LFer playing 1B sets in.
phil
October 28th, 2009
9:47 pm
I can’t think of a trade that is worth giving up JJ with the trade being “doable”.
Take the next two years as a blessing and work with Boras then.
Phillies in 5
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
9:58 pm
P. W. Hjort
well atleast he would be in the conversation. he gets no props or coverage from any media or anything. He would get serious consideration if he had more W’s cause they value those so much in voting. JJ has 18-20 W’s i bet will hear his name. Give this braves team a big bat in the middle and we’ll have 4 15+ gm winners
Soph
October 28th, 2009
10:00 pm
Fox has been having sound issues. It was making these same weird noises during the Steelers/Vikings game on Sunday too.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
10:00 pm
Ryan Ludwick is mentioned as possible trade chips for the Cards. He would be a good fit.
McFann Ô
October 28th, 2009
10:01 pm
Keylargo–
Keep in mind a lot of people think you cann just stick anybody at 1B and it’ll work out perfectly…
Athenzdawg
October 28th, 2009
10:03 pm
Enter your comments here
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
10:03 pm
McFann
Yep lol everyone thinks 1st base is so easy to play
Soph
October 28th, 2009
10:04 pm
Haaa, I love how Lee caught that pop up. Super chill.
Athenzdawg
October 28th, 2009
10:05 pm
Short of getting a real superstar and two more people no! I’m tired of trading our good talent away and watching them prosper for other teams…I mean we almost single handedly helped Texas get in the playoffs this year just from the Tex trade…. If he doesnt have more than two years before he can become a free agent then no…….Get us Pujols and we can trade JJ
John
October 28th, 2009
10:06 pm
NO, DONT TRADE THE 1ST OR 2ND BEST PLAYER YOU HAVE. TRADE THE WORTHLESS LARRY JONES AND FREE UP MONEY TO BUT ANOTHER PLAYES.
TnBrian
October 28th, 2009
10:06 pm
DOB, I’d like to know what you think of Ludwick & him as a guy to go after. I’d think if St.Louis intends to sign Holliday then Ludwick will be traded for pitching, which we have.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
10:08 pm
If we butted more playes, we’d be in the world series right now. Good call, John.
keylargo
October 28th, 2009
10:08 pm
McFann
Anyone who thinks all those short hops that Adam LaRoche or Casey Kotchman so routinely scoop out of the dirt will continue to be outs with a LFer or a C (any catcher, not just BMac
) playing first will need to think it over some more.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
10:09 pm
McCarver and Buck are annoying enough on their own, but I can’t listen to this. I had to change it
Goldenglove002
October 28th, 2009
10:09 pm
if you are willing to help me get to a braves game next year, click this link. (no it’s not spam or a virus, etc.)
http://my.wsbtv.com/_Kell-High-School-Band/video/786231/6690.html
Soph
October 28th, 2009
10:11 pm
Butted? That’s a new one.
McFann Ô
October 28th, 2009
10:11 pm
VaBravesFan–
Yeah. I’ve often thought it looks kinda tricky…
Keylargo–
Seriously…
(any catcher, not just BMac
)
Yeah, like, I betcha even Mauer couldn’t do it!
Night, all!
TnBrian
October 28th, 2009
10:12 pm
jeffrey d, your 9:25 about people talking Jurrjens up like he’s the next Maddux or Clemens was just dumb. Check out Maddux’s stats when he was a 23 year old kid & you can bet he wasn’t as good as JJ is at 23. Come on, of course he could turn into a Maddux, especially if he tones down his walks. Movement on his pitches remind me of Maddux but mostly JJ is like Maddux in that he knows what he’s doing on the mound.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
10:12 pm
Well, the phrase was “BUT MORE PLAYES” but I figured “butted” is the correct past tense.
bravefaninok
October 28th, 2009
10:13 pm
Lowe for Mathews Jr???
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
10:14 pm
Tomas
Javy should net us someone that can bat cleanup. Look for teams that are loaded with batters and are looking for pitchers. He prolly couldnt net us a younger slugger under contract, but someone around 30 y/o maybe has 2 years on his contract remaining. He is prolly our best best at landing a really good hitter. But i think were better off keeping him and trying to sign him like were doing with Huddy. We gotta try and trade Lowe for a small return so we wont have to eat some contract. Use that money for the bullpen and a vetern outfielder, someone like Garret Anderson but has to play better D. We have Schafer and Heyward still not knowing if they make the team…… Resign Rochy. that wouldnt be too bad, considering we used the money from Lowe to solify bullpen and also help resigning Vasquez. Or we could trade Lowe for a equal bad contract bat team in need of pitching, but the bat would be a older player like lowe with the bad contract prolly will have some pop. never know what Wren will do.
Random
October 28th, 2009
10:15 pm
rufues (October 28th, 2009 7:05 pm): “Lets trade Jair Jurrjens, and get bring back Don Sutton, that about the level of the Braves mentality. They have become a joke, they don’t think, they’ll most likely try to bring back the three scrooges. They Braves big wheel are making to much money and have to much free time on their hands. They ignore the fact that one should not throw the baby out with the water. But,to no ones surprise on how the Braves do things like, picking any players or picking quality players. Maybe they just can’t tell the different’s or maybe just don’t care, on what they put on the field next year.”
Go back to sleep, Rip. False alarm.
. . .
Jerry (October 28th, 2009 7:11 pm): “And you do not trade Vazquez this year. Maybe after next season if you cannot sign him.”
2010 is the last year Vazquez is under contract to the Braves. They won’t have him to trade after next season unless they do extend him.
. . .
Truth is, VaBraveFan, you have no clue how much the Braves offered Teixeira during 2008 ST.
. . .
CJ (October 28th, 2009 7:51 pm): “No, I don’t think the Braves have any plans at all to trade JJ. However, if they were offered Evan Longoria, Matt Kemp, Adrian Gonzalez, Justin Upton, or Ryan Braun for him they would be stark raving MAD not to accept – and quickly.”
And which of the other five teams involved in that trade would keep JJJ?
Or would they share him?
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
10:17 pm
TnBrian – All I’m saying is if the right offer comes along, I wouldn’t be upset if we traded JJ for a top, major league ready hitting prospect. We’ve got a lot of pitchers, and an iffy offense.
But all this is a moot point because, like I said, all this JJ talk is only coming from the loonies.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
10:24 pm
bravefaninok
Thats a comparable trade, i still rather have Lowe. Matthews Jr. has been a role/bench player for past 2 years and number got worse each year. He is 35 y/o and has 2 years left on contract 23 mil total. Switch hitter who can play all 3 outfield spots and can still run well. I dont see him being to great offensivly, but he wants to be traded cause he wants to start. If they do the deal st8 up will save around 3.5 million for payroll. If he plays everyday he might hit 15 homers and steal 10 bags hit around 250.ish and play ok defense. we would be paying him around 11.5 mil each year. i think Lowe has more value than that. But if they throw in a prospect or 2 might be a ok deal, considering they prolly wont bring back Lackey
kreedham
October 28th, 2009
10:24 pm
DOB…is that McMurtry song from his new album. I ordered the special combo pack (DVD, CD and LP) and am awaiting it’s arrival..
TnBrian
October 28th, 2009
10:25 pm
jeffrey d, JJ won’t be traded, you’re right. The way people are talking about Heyward he could be the next Braun or Longoria, so I’d just ask those people why even trade JJ for what you might already have coming up soon.
A-ville Ranger
October 28th, 2009
10:27 pm
I agree, you can’t even consider trading JJ unless somebody calls with an absolutely overwelming offer, and then only maybe.
I picked the Phils in 6 or 7.Something about that bunch puts me in mind of the Big Red Machine of yester-yore.Chase Utley is the glue that binds in my opinion.
Frankie Knuckles
October 28th, 2009
10:27 pm
DOB,
Do you think the Hudson “signing” means Wren has suitors for Lowe? I don’t think they would trade KK at this point and negate the bridge they are trying to build to the pacific.
I know you’re a fan of Curb. Do you think Larry David went too far with the Jesus painting episode? Just curious, I’m taking opinions on that one.
elliwg6
October 28th, 2009
10:27 pm
why would you trade him for a top prospect? we already have one of those. the only way they’d ever consider it would be for a superstar, braun, longoria type
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
10:29 pm
why would you trade him for a top prospect? we already have one of those
Because Heyward’s no Tim Tebow. He can’t do everyhing by himself.
marko
October 28th, 2009
10:29 pm
We could get a lot in return for Jurjens in a trade. It may be too good to turn down.
Who knows what players would be discussed but if we could get say Loney & Kemp or Justin Upton & Mark Reynolds in return, how could you say no to that. Sounds like Jurjens will be gone in a few seasons anyway. The Braves don’t play the Scott Boras game.
TnBrian
October 28th, 2009
10:32 pm
Wish we had Rollins.
elliwg6
October 28th, 2009
10:33 pm
Love that mic on the base btw. how nice does that slide sound?
Keeper
October 28th, 2009
10:33 pm
DOB, we’re all bored waiting for the stove to heat up, so thanks for helping us pass the time. But why don’t you address one of the more credible rumors out there first, like Pujols for Norton, with St. Louis throwing in cash to cover the salary difference?
Heck, in your online poll, only 5 of the first thousand voters to this blog thought JJ would be traded. Think about how many contrarians there are on here – people who love to squawk just to rile up the crowd. Yet not even one percent will bite on that one? You could pile up more votes on a poll suggesting Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds will be first-ballot HOFers.
Even the usual nutjobs are staying away from this “rumor.”
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
10:33 pm
Random
We gave up a ton for Tex it was a bad trade. only a good trade if we resigned him.
N. Perez awsome arm in majors flamethrower
Salty Switch hitting catcher with potential
Elvis Andrus 20 y/o in majors could be rookie of year plays gold glove defense futuire all star
Matt Harrison Top pitching prospect at the time. tailed off this year but has plenty of potential
Beua Jones Lefty with potential
thats alot, just Perez and Andrus was alot for a rental, the braves dont open the wallet enough to keep players like him.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
10:38 pm
For what it’s worth, it’s been about 2.5 years since we traded for Tex, and we’re still not hurting (except for about 30 innings from Feliz).
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
10:39 pm
we actaully signed McCann to a 6 year 26.8 million deal And there saying Mauer will get around 20 million a year…… Yeah Mauer is the best at the position but Mac is number 2 and thats a huge margin of difference. Were lucky to have McCann.
elliwg6
October 28th, 2009
10:40 pm
maybe we don’t sign the lowe contract with harrison feliz so close though. less pressure. but fair observation.
Steve from OH
October 28th, 2009
10:42 pm
We don’t sign the Lowe contract with Harrison in our system? Hogwash. Harrison never had a future here and probably won’t have much of a big-league career.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
10:43 pm
I never got why some people were so high on Matt Harrison. Granted, all I’ve seen is numbers, but to me they never screamed anything special.
Plus, there’s nowhere for Salty and Andrus to play anyway.
Moe Berg
October 28th, 2009
10:43 pm
however much we overpaid for Tex, it is not nearly as much as the Yankees overpaid. Most of those players were blocked with the Braves anyway.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
10:44 pm
jeffrey d
You forgot Elvis Andrus, be nice to have him and Escobar up the middle for this defense. Andrus is 20 years old and playing gold glove SS hitting for a decent average and stealing some bases , he is gonna be something special. Feliz looks awesome , has closer stuff with a starters stamina. If he was hear we would Gonzo and Soriano walk Feliz would be new closer. Terrible trade unless we locked Tex up. The Braves expect everyone from Georgia to take a hometown discount. Switch hitting gold glove mvp caliber 1st baseman u dont let them walk away and u expect him to want to sign his last big contract at the age of 28. nuff said….
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
10:46 pm
You forgot Elvis Andrus, be nice to have him and Escobar up the middle for this defense.
And where’s he going to play? Shortstop 2? With Renteria and Escobar, Andrus would’ve been traded anyway…it was just a necessar evil that all these top guys had to be traded in the same deal.
BigHittas
October 28th, 2009
10:46 pm
nothin’ personal at all, but keep the pitchers; trade Chipper.
Greg in TN
October 28th, 2009
10:49 pm
Tonight is the first time a Yankee team has played a World Series game without Bob Sheppard at the mic doing public address since game 4 of the 1950 fall classic, which was a four game sweep of… drumroll please… The Philadelphia Phillies.
Doesn’t look like it’ll be a Yankee sweep to this point thanks to the efforts of Lee, Utley and Ibanez.
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
10:52 pm
Random,
I believe you misread the conjunction in the last thing you quoted in your 10:15. He said “or”, not “and”.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
10:52 pm
Shortstops with great ability can easily make a transition to 2nd base. I’m not arguing your points i’m saying those 2 guys we traded are the real deal. after next season there gonna be like JJ.
Frankie Knuckles
October 28th, 2009
10:53 pm
We darn sure aren’t trading Chip. He comes back to life next season or he walks away from a hall of fame career with Cox.
Anyone else worried about watching the sports south/fsn games next season without Boog to lighten up Simpson? Please tell me Chip isn’t the replacement. Just a rumor, but I heard Steve Phillips is looking for work.
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
10:56 pm
Not sure where all this trade Chipper talk is coming from, but he has a no trade clause.
the real Andy
October 28th, 2009
10:58 pm
if the braves trade jj, i quit. that said, no way it happens.
Moe Berg
October 28th, 2009
10:58 pm
Chipper is a 10/5. He is in Atlanta until the end of his contract, unless he decides to retire before then.
Jim
October 28th, 2009
11:04 pm
Unless we are getting Albert Pujols (with his contract paid by the Cardinals) for Jurrjens, trading him would be stupid.
http://www.fanhuddle.com/atlantabraves
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
11:05 pm
Chipper is still a HOF even if he reitred after next year. 6 time Allstar 99 MVP 1995 WS Champion 2008 Batting Title 440ish HR 308. Career Avg One of the greatest switchhitters ever, tied the record of 20+ homers in 14 consecutive years, never had a 100 strikeout season, finshes with 100+ more BB than K’s. he is a lock, he doesnt need the 500 homer achievement,
Random
October 28th, 2009
11:06 pm
VaBraveFan (October 28th, 2009 6:28 pm): “We should have signed Tex before he even made it to FA. Give the man a good offer from the start, he didnt want to play in Atl cause we prolly offered a bullcrap contract named Hometown Discount from the start, instead of paying the player on how they produce. . . . Tex got a crap 1st offer is why he totally didnt want to be here, we prolly acted like he was Chipper or somthing and offered 13 mil a year, for one of the best players in the game thats an insult.”
Truth is, VaBraveFan, you have no clue how much the Braves offered Teixeira during 2008 ST. Y.A.I.
. . .
Oops.
Sorry, CJ.
Thanks, P. W. Hjort.
(Funny thing is, I caught it in Tomas’ at 9:24, but failed to double check CJ’s. My bad, all. My cue to retire, I think.)
ChipChopper
October 28th, 2009
11:09 pm
Trade JJ? Yes, definitely. Easy decision. Him for Puholz straight up any day. Otherwise, NO! Remember the nineties? All about the great young pitching, and he’s probably nowhere near his prime yet.
Just Saying
October 28th, 2009
11:13 pm
I hate the Yankees and am pulling for the Phillies. But…… if the Phils win back to back series it will only make what the Braves did in the 90s look even more weak than it already does in my opinion. Also will Charlie Manuel be known as a hall of fame manager? I mean the point is to win a series title right? Not just get into the playoffs a gazillion times and flop.
Just saying!
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
11:14 pm
Random
Yeah that is true but it was obviously not what he was looking for……. Its like Letting Chipper walk when he signed his huge deal back in the day, only difference is Chipper wanted to be a brave and was willing to take less, (6yr 90 mil) Team has to pay for a slugger sometime soon….
jeffrey d
October 28th, 2009
11:14 pm
Him for Puholz straight up any day
I can’t tell if that’s for real or not…
Random
October 28th, 2009
11:15 pm
VaBraveFan (October 28th, 2009 10:39 pm): “we actaully signed McCann to a 6 year 26.8 million deal And there saying Mauer will get around 20 million a year…… Yeah Mauer is the best at the position but Mac is number 2 and thats a huge margin of difference. Were lucky to have McCann.”
I dunno.
Sounds like “a bullcrap contract named Hometown Discount” to me; you know, “the braves dont open the wallet enough to keep players like him.”
KC
October 28th, 2009
11:15 pm
Well, it’s only a couple nights into the new NBA season but…
So much is said about the “Big 5″ in the NBA, right now; the 5 teams with a shot at a championship this year. And while I agree that all 5 have a legitimate shot, I think the Celtics, Lakers, and Spurs are a notch above the Magic and Cavs.
Just watched the Spurs in action tonight, and I think that might be the best Spurs team I’ve seen yet, which is saying something after 4 championships. Can’t wait for the conference finals. The playoffs are going to be very, very special next year.
Random
October 28th, 2009
11:17 pm
Ta.
uga-brave
October 28th, 2009
11:18 pm
the flyin hawaian knows no fear.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
11:19 pm
Random
We signed him before he really emerged as the best catcher in the NL, McCann values the organiztion and values security of the long term deal offered to him at the time. He’ll get another big contract and he’ll stay with the Braves cause he seems like a Chipper Jones and wants to be here.
Efrim
October 28th, 2009
11:19 pm
Tom (San Francisco, CA)
Should Freddie Freeman’s performance thus far in the Arizona Fall League be a cause for concern?
Jim Callis
I had a scout tell me he was disappointed in Freeman’s bat speed and athleticism. But Freeman had wrist problems during the season, and it often takes a long time for a hitter to recover from that. I don’t place a lot of stock in AFL performance and I’m not alarmed by Freeman’s.
Efrim
October 28th, 2009
11:21 pm
jim (virginia)
As a Braves fan I couldn’t be more exicted about having one of the game’s top prospects (if not the top prospect) in Jayson Heyward. But after him I worry about the depth of the farm system. How would you rate the overall strength of the farm as compared to other organizations?
Jim Callis
I haven’t lined up all the systems, but I was shocked at the Braves’ lack of depth, considering they always seem to have a Top 10 system. But once you get past Heyward, Freeman, Teheran, Minor and Kimbrel, it falls off quickly. Particularly in terms of position players.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
11:21 pm
Chipper’s HOF Resume
Accomplishments
1st pick overall in the 1990 amateur draft
TSN Rookie of the Year (1995)
6-time All-Star (1996-98, 2000-01, 2008)
National League MVP (1999)
2-time Silver Slugger at 3rd base (1999-2000)
Holds the Major League record for most consecutive games with an extra-base hit (14; tied with Paul Waner).
8 consecutive 100+ RBI seasons (1996-2003)
14 consecutive 20+ home run seasons (1995-2008); tied for MLB record with Eddie Mathews for most 20+ home run seasons to start a career
Most home runs in a season by a National League switch hitter (45; in 1999; tied with Lance Berkman, although Jones completed the task first.)
Third-most home runs for a switch hitter, behind Eddie Murray (504) and Mickey Mantle (536)
Hit the first home run at Nationals Park in Washington, D.C. (2008)
400 Home Runs (hit 400th off Ricky Nolasco of the Florida Marlins) (June 5, 2008)
Most Home Runs to begin a career playing under one manager (Bobby Cox)
NL Player of the Week (June 2–June 8, 2008)
2008 NL (and MLB) Batting Champ with .364
2008 Highest On Base Percentage with .470
29 game hitting streak vs the Philadelphia Phillies
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
11:22 pm
Random,
Never! Your work here is necessary and appreciated.
Phuck tha Fillies.
keylargo
October 28th, 2009
11:30 pm
OK, you do not want to trade JJ for Ryan Braun. But, let’s look at it.
Steve Avery was every bit the pitcher JJ is and a case could be made that he had a better upside. Let’s just look at it.
Avery (91 – 93)
W/L 47 – 25 3.17 ERA SO/BB 2.18 WHIP 1.199
Jurrjens (08 – 09)
W/L 27 – 20 3.10 ERA SO/BB 1.287 WHIP 1.287
Avery is every bit the pitcher and maybe more.
But if you could trade JJ for an up and coming SuperStar LFer named Ryan Braun, would you?
Look at what would have happened if after the 93 season, the Braves traded Avery for Bobby Bonds.
I just used the first four years for Bonds. He primarily would have replaced Ryan Klesko but Klesko was much stronger than several other outfielders the Braves used in 94 – 97. But look at what Bonds would have done for the Braves offense.
Bobby Bonds (94 – 97)
.301/.443/.603/1.046
Averaged 38 HR’s and 34 SB’s
I just could not turn down the possibility that Ryan Braun could give the 2010 – 2014 Braves something similar to the Bonds numbers. You still trade Lowe as well to make the payroll numbers work, but the rotation would still have Hanson, Vazquez, Hudson to anchor the rotation.
Moe Berg
October 28th, 2009
11:33 pm
keylargo–I assume you mean Barry Bonds and not his father.
P. W. Hjort
October 28th, 2009
11:34 pm
VaBraveFan,
Chipper is also one of 10 NL players to post a .470+ OBP in a single season.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
11:36 pm
keylargo
I completly agree with that. With Hanson, Huddy, Vasquez already in place, that would be a no brainer to accept. But the Brewers would never do that cause u dont let players like him go. You dont let a franchise player leave or trade em away unless it makes total sense. Yes they need pitching but if i had Braun i would ask for more than JJ lol
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
11:38 pm
P.W. Hjort
good one, wiki doesnt have that. I read someone say if he struggles and retires with Bobby he would be walking away from a HOF career, he is already a hall of famer with his credentials he has now.
Jake W.
October 28th, 2009
11:39 pm
Well I know that JJ isn’t going to be traded any more than braun will be traded by Milwaukee. Of course you would trade him if you could get a Pujols but I prefer to stick to reality. Me personally I wouldn’t even trade him for Braun. Hanson and JJ form a nice young tandem for the top of a rotation and the value they bring at their price right now makes it even more unthinkable to trade one. Braun is a great young player and is currently part of an offense that was pretty good last year but it got them nowhere without pitching.
Phillies best the Yanks in game one. All the Yanks big bats went cold. Lee pitched a good game. Will be intersting to see how they fare against Pedro tomorrow.
Roman Gal
October 28th, 2009
11:42 pm
VaBraveFan-
You forgot to mention that Chipper tied the Major League record for longest Extra-Base Hitting Streak…what was it, 14 games?
Roman Gal
October 28th, 2009
11:45 pm
Nevermind. My reading comprehension skills are diminishing as we speak…
keylargo
October 28th, 2009
11:46 pm
VaBraveFan
I should have put it in that Avery never really had another dominant year after 93. That was basically my point in that pitchers are much more likely to have a career altering injury than position players and that if I had my choice, I would take the position player.
Avery’s career wound down with his best seasons being 10, 8, 7, 7 and 6 wins after 47 in his first 3 years. You would feel like the smartest man in the world if you had Bonds on your team in 94.
And yes Moe, I saw Barry’s Dad Bobby play too. Sorry I mixed up the names.
Andrew
October 28th, 2009
11:47 pm
the only way i even consider trading jair is if we are getting prince ..even then i still dont know..jurrjens isnt going anywhere…who’s going to give up alot for javy? hes going to be a free agent after the year…and we should not try to get matthews jr..
Roman Gal
October 28th, 2009
11:47 pm
My gut says Yankees in 6, my heart says 7 scoreless ties. Greg in TN
My heart calls for a bloody brawl…or some similar incentive to actually watch the games.
Roman Gal
October 28th, 2009
11:49 pm
On the bright side to this offseason, I don’t think Jake Peavy is going to be available so I’m just gonna go ahead and squash those rumors here and now.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
11:50 pm
Roman Gal
I do have that listed lol but its good were thinking of more things Chipper has done!
ON one of my recent post, i meant to say someone said if he retires with Bobby he would be walking away from a HOF career as if he wont get in cause he isnt finishing his contract.
Frankie Knuckles
that would make him more of a HOFer why keep playing if he isnt playing up to his standards he can opt out of the contract and that helps our Braves even more cause there is 30+ million freed on on the books for the next 3 years. It isnt about the money for Chipper, time after time he restructured his contract to help the team sign free agents and switched to LF for the team. If he never made the switch to LF his creditails would be even more impressive and he would be over the 500 hr mark too.
Frankie Knuckles
October 28th, 2009
11:50 pm
Andrew,
You can’t trade JJ for 1 year of Prince. Braun will make you stop and consider.
Roman Gal
October 28th, 2009
11:51 pm
Efrim-
I saw your earlier comment about the Phillies stealing Cliff Lee (you know I agree.) I used to kinda, sorta like the Indians…But not anymore! Who do they think they are?! The Pirates?!
CJ Dawg
October 28th, 2009
11:52 pm
If the Braves are this stupid and trade JJ, Frank Wren better go into hiding. I am a marine (ret.) and my life has been shortened by a bad heart. I will find that rat and chain him to a stump in the Okefenokee and pour hamburger meat allllll over him and then for good luck, I might clean 30 lbs of fish right around there and leave the guts and blood at his feet.
Just kidding. Frank. Reallly.
VaBraveFan
October 28th, 2009
11:54 pm
Andrew
I rather have Braun over Prince anyday. Prince is a big guy that concerns me for the long term. and he is also Lefty batter with 1 year left on contract. Braun is already locked up and is young , more athletic has the abiltiy to play 3b and is a great player.
Roman Gal
October 28th, 2009
11:54 pm
I do have that listed lol but its good were thinking of more things Chipper has done!
Yeah…I realize that. [hang head in shame] I kind of read it from the bottom up and from right to left so I just missed it…although I’m still not sure why.
Greg Olson Homers
October 28th, 2009
11:55 pm
Is this wild, speculative ‘Lowe for Carlos Lee’ contract swap actually feasible?
Moe Berg
October 28th, 2009
11:56 pm
Roman Gal–I agree with you about the Indians. I really liked them with Mike Hargrove. After he left, I just have not been interested.
Pablito
October 28th, 2009
11:56 pm
Call me crazy, but I took your “What if Jair was on the Phillies” scenario and figured out how he would do if he started each of his games in 2009 for the Phillies…and the result? 13-5.
Almost half of his games would have been no-decisions (if he pitched on the same days for the Phillies as he did for the Braves), thanks to the shaky Philly bullpen and the tendency for the Phillies to score late in the game.
13-5.
Boy do I have some free time on my hands.
Roman Gal
October 29th, 2009
12:00 am
Moe Berg-
I do still like Grady Sizemore. I think the Braves should look into acquiring him. He probably the one player I would consider trading Jordan Schafer for.
Roman Gal
October 29th, 2009
12:01 am
…but since the Indians obviously are more interesting in money than talent, the Braves wouldn’t even have to consider trading Schafer for him.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:02 am
Greg Olson Homers
It makes since, kinda Lowe has 3 yr 45 mil left and Lee has 3 yr 55.5 mil left Lee actually does produce good numbers but still is overpaid. Lee also has a full no trade clause. Lee plays below average defense as well. there is an extra 10 mil on table with Lee after the swap so we’ll have even less money, Astros prolly want to just ride his contract out and let him go when its up. Lowe is 36 and Lee is 33 if i was the astros i would only do the deal if the braves took Lee’s whole contract, other than that it makes no sense for the astros
Roman Gal
October 29th, 2009
12:03 am
Holy Smokes!
First I can’t read. Now I can’t write. I think it’s high time I hit the hay.
Before you know it, my idioms are going to start biting me in the butt…
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:04 am
The Indians see Sizemore as someone they want to build around. But if they struggle really bad next year his name might float in trade deadline talks cause they could get a decent package for him since there in a rebuild mode. The way they traded CC and Lee they sure dont care about who they get in return it seems….
Frankie Knuckles
October 29th, 2009
12:06 am
VaBravesFan,
This is the problem with text communication. I meant Chipper would walk away from his career ( with Bobby ) as undoubtedly a Hall of Famer. My point was even if Chip was tradeable he would walk after next season if the results didn’t meet his standards. I was responding to an outlandish comment, my mistake, by some poster.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:08 am
Frank Knuckles
My fault man lol It looked like it came out the other way so i was quick to defend my favorite player of all time lol its all good : D
Andrew
October 29th, 2009
12:09 am
yeah i would rather have Braun too but i dont even consider him because hes not going anywhere
benchwarmer
October 29th, 2009
12:10 am
What I always liked about Chipper is that he gave his all for the team. I don’t recall any time that he didn’t. That and great talent well used is a HOF, anytime.
Frankie Knuckles
October 29th, 2009
12:10 am
I think the Braves value defense too much to consider Lee. Then I remembered who played the majority of left last season. Then I remembered he was a 1 year player whom I don’t have to deal with for years to come. That rumor is BUNK.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:13 am
If i was the Brew Crew i would want JJ, McLouth, and Freeman for Braun Cause i know Fielder will be a FA after the season, and we need pitching and someone to replace Braun. I dont think thats too much, put yourself in the Brewers GM’s shoes what would you want for Braun????
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
12:15 am
Even the usual nutjobs are staying away from this “rumor.” — Keeper
Where was it a rumor? I was pretty clear that it was just a few of our bloggers suggesting to do it. Nothing about it being a rumor. Someone, or multiple people, suggesting that the Braves trade this guy or that guy doesn’t make it a rumor. At all.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:15 am
I do think the Braves would Trade Lowe to Houston for Lee only if Houston ate most of the 10 mil left over after the swap. The Braves would get a 300. 25-30 100 guy for 3 seasons
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:17 am
DOB
Your correct and i will say i was one of those people that mentioned it , so we could have something interesting to think and talk about. I do not want the Braves to trade JJ but i did throw the idea out there : D
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
12:21 am
Kreedham, that McMurtry song, Holiday, is off his Childish Things album from 2005, which is one of his best studio albums (the one I’m assuming you ordered, Just Us Kids, is also great. But you should get a couple of his earlier ones, too, starting with Where’d You Hide The Body and Too Long In The Wasteland.
Childish Things has a few of his finest tunes on it, including We Can’t Make It Here, Memorial Day, Childish Things, Charlemagne’s Home Town … actually, just about every cut on it is terrific. You should get it, for sure.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
12:25 am
Matthews Jr. has been a role/bench player for past 2 years and number got worse each year. He is 35 y/o and has 2 years left on contract 23 mil total. Switch hitter who can play all 3 outfield spots and can still run well. I dont see him being to great offensivly, but he wants to be traded cause he wants to start. (VaBF)
The Braves dumped him once, I doubt they are gonna revisit that useless experience
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
12:26 am
Frankie Knuckles: Too far? He’s gone that far in half his episodes, about one politically incorrect topic or another. You like his humor or you don’t, but that’s what it it, consistently.
Honestly, I thought the episode was hilarious. This whole season has been so far.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:28 am
nolie
I was answering someone’s question and i told him my opinion and i do not think we shoud trade for him, unless the Angels take Lowes whole contract without us eating any of it
nolie
October 29th, 2009
12:31 am
But once you get past Heyward, Freeman, Teheran, Minor and Kimbrel, it falls off quickly. Particularly in terms of position players. (Efrim)
lose a Bisher, gain a Bisher
N8
October 29th, 2009
12:31 am
I’ve been one of the guys that have said I’d be open to trading JJJ, but not because I don’t like him. Not because he’s a Boras client. Not because with our mid-level payroll, we couldn’t use all the cheap help we can get.
Quite simply, he’s the guy that would bring the most return. More than Vazquez. Possibly as much or more than Hanson. Just because he’s not going to get any consideration for Cy Young votes, doesn’t mean that every other GM out there knows exactly what this guy is or could be worth.
If the Braves were able to trade him for a big bat that is RH, and as young as JJJ and in the same contractual situation (arbitration eligible, etc…), then doesn’t Wren have to think about it?
But make no mistake. IMO, this rotation should be anchored by JJJ and Hanson for the next few years.
I just think at this point, Wren has to listen to all offers. Which I assume he’d do. I mean, if the Rays offered Longoria even up for him, don’t you have to think about that? Doesn’t mean he has to do it. But he’s got to at least assess it and determine if 162 games of a bat like Longoria would be more valuble than 30-35 starts of JJJ, especially since our offense is lacking in power, a RH bat and there appears to be plenty of pitching around.
I’ve said all along, that over the next 3 or 4 years JJJ will be more valuble than Vazquez, which is why he should be moved first. But come on. Vazquez is going to get us something along the lines of one year of Derek Lee or another veteran that is at the end of a current contract.
My vote? Sign Hudson. Sign Vazquez to a similar deal (might take more money), and dump Lowe for whatever the hell you can get for him.
But I have a feeling that Vazquez might still be dangled when it comes down to it. Trading Lowe frees up money to spend in free agency. Trading Vazquez might bring that bat in the trade. Half of me says trade Vazquez for a young stud pitcher to team that needs immediate impact, rather than to get that bat with him.
Wren has so many options it’s crazy. McLouth could be on the block. LaRoche could be re-signed. Heyward could be the infusion of offense and just ride with the current pitching and see what that brings us and worry about trading mid-season for whatever is needed.
The fun has only just begun.
As much as it pains me to root for the Phils, it’s nice to see the Yankees get shutdown. How’d you like to be a Cleveland fan right about now. Two ex pitchers starting game one of the WS for opposing teams? Sucks to be them, huh?
Andrew
October 29th, 2009
12:37 am
I wouldn’t have even wrote this blog DOB, seriously it’s a mess. The only thing about Jair Jurrjens we should be talking about is how good of a pitcher he is,and that it was a steal to get him for Renteria. If i were Jair and read this, it would turn me away from fans. It’s just stiring up a hot mess.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:38 am
N8
Good Post man, yeah there is tons of ways Wren can go this offseason, i think there will be a domino effect. Resign Huddy, Trade Lowe depending on the Lowe Trade results i cannot further the domino lol but hoepfully it involves Resiging Rochy and adding Gonzo back. somthing of that sort.
Frankie Knuckles
October 29th, 2009
12:38 am
DOB, I have to disagree. He has never ever touched a Jewish ( albeit not devout ) man urinating on Christ. Can’t think of anything even close. Some of the people I’ve talked to loved it and others have sworn to never watch Curb again. Got to love America!
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:41 am
Andrew
I think this blog was great. Its thinking outside the Box and opening new thoughts to our surplus pitching and after being on the 1st 4 pages 100% of bloggers want JJ to stay, Including me. Its cool discussing situations in trades involving a player of his caliber. And its not all about JJ its about the offseason, good blog DOB
Andrew
October 29th, 2009
12:45 am
Blog title, Would you really trade Jurrjens? No,that would be stupid.
N8
October 29th, 2009
12:47 am
VaBraveFan, thanks man. As a fan, I’m trying to keep an open mind about whatever moves Wren is going to come up with. He did a fabulous job with the rotation last year, and now has to revamp the lineup and possibly the bullpen.
I suspect that he won’t make any knee-jerk decisions that eliminate all the good work he did on the pitching staff. But I agree. The Hudson signing is the first domino, and I believe once the WS is completed, there will be some trades going down rather quickly.
Didn’t somebody mention that the Renteria/JJJ trade happened a few days after the WS in 2007? I suspect at least one trade will happen within a couple of weeks of when teams are eligible to do so, and the ball will get rolling.
Provided Wren makes the team better in 2010 without sacrificing too much (if any) of the future, I’ll support whatever decisions he comes to. Just as long as KJ isn’t the starting 2B and Jeffy isn’t manning RF. LOL
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:54 am
N8
I hear you on that. I posted earlier that i read the Cubs have interest in KJ, so that could be a landing spot for him and i really dont care what we get in return cause no reason to pay KJ 3+ million to be a bench player. I’m sure we wont see Frenchy back lol. INteresting you bring him up. he is a non tender candidate for the Mets, so he might be out there lol I say he land with the Royals tho. and another familar name is Andruw Jones who will most likey be a FA as well lol I’m pretty sure a AL will sign him to a 1 yr deal. but never know he might get no interest and Cox could invite him to Spring Training for old time sake lmao
keylargo
October 29th, 2009
12:58 am
lose a Bisher, gain a Bisher
Nolie
I’ll take that any day over Lose a Lentz, gain a Lentz
Now if you could limit it to “Lose a Lentz”, we can talk.
Andrew
October 29th, 2009
1:02 am
If the Braves could get a team to eat most or all of Lowe’s contract,is there any way we could sign Jason Bay?
Duke
October 29th, 2009
1:07 am
It definitely has been Curb’s best season so far, at least in my opinion
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
1:08 am
Andrew
We could probably compete in bidding for Bay, but signing Bay would mean leaving very little money for the bullpen. Bay wants to win and he might see that Atlanta might not be his spot. Bay is looking to get around 15+ million a year. Early reports shout he’ll gets around a 4 year 60-70 million deal, simaler to Lowe’s contract signed last offseason. Boris thinks Holliday can garner the same contract Texiera signed with the Yankees. I doubt it tho….. lol Boris is a evil man
Frankie Knuckles
October 29th, 2009
1:19 am
Boras isn’t evil. He’s just a shrewd business man playing the capital game. There was a time when players didn’t make what they were rightfully owed. Not saying its the best system but as I sit here with my laptop on the world wide web in my leather recliner it darn sure beats the other options.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
1:21 am
Righthanded Bats Options all listed are FA or trade candadits or Non tender candidates
Josh Willingham
Nelson Cruz
Marlon Bryd
Jake Fox
Vladmir Guerrero
Marcus Thames
Johnny Gomes
Dan Uggla
Jorge Cantu
Xavier Nady
Jermaine Dye
Gary Sheffield
Andruw Jones
Jeff Francour lol
Magglio Ordonez
Corey Hart
Mark DeRosa
Delmon Young
Derek Lee?
Carlos Lee?
Elijah Dukes?
Milton Bradley
Pat Burrel
Ryan Ludwick
Frankie Knuckles
October 29th, 2009
1:24 am
businessman. getting late. take it easy folks. I impatiently await the hot stove. Its scary to think the Phillies will still be in our division next year. With the right moves we can make their run a blip on the radar.
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
1:35 am
N8,
Good one from you at 12:31. Summarizes my thoughts exactly, we’re on the same page.
Except for your last paragraph, I’m rooting for the Yankees!
Keith B
October 29th, 2009
1:36 am
Dump Lowe at virtually any cost – - – and I do mean at virtually ANY cost. Free up that money. If you have to do a Lowe-Jones trade for a power hitter and some speed, do just that.
We will never get to the Series as long as Bobby rewards mediocrity. He lets Lowe stay in the game even after 5, 6, and 7 hits in ONE INNING while allowing Chipper to remain batting third, while impressing us with his .230 average the last 2/3 of the season. Pray tell, Bobby, how does THIS type managing get us in the Series?
Andrew
October 29th, 2009
1:36 am
Ludwick could be a realistic person
alsim123
October 29th, 2009
1:43 am
If they trade JJ, I will cease to be a fan.
chris
October 29th, 2009
1:55 am
yes, andrew, the braves could probably have enough money to sign jason bay, if they could dump lowe’s salary. based on the payroll of about $95 million, braves could easily sign bay to about $17 million a year. but they also need to address the bulpen, resigning laroche as well…
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
2:00 am
Ludwick would be a good pickup. He would look good between Chipper and Mac.
I forgot to mention Nick Swisher on that list. I like him alot too. Ability to play 1b and corner outfield, switch hitter with power. Walks alot as well. Just have to deal with a low average, but moving the the NL could benifit him. Also he is under contract for 2 more season’s at around 5 mil each.
scottbravesfan
October 29th, 2009
2:15 am
Trading Jair Jurrjens is one of the worst ideas ever, next to the pet rock.
Steve
October 29th, 2009
2:34 am
Why does this column even exist? I mean who in the world actually thinks we should trade JJ? No way…he’s our most valuable player at this time is becoming a fan favorite.
thunderbull56
October 29th, 2009
2:57 am
Steve,Steve, wonder no more from a censured POS,I also feel that trading JJ would be an act of treason.Free advice. Unless you agree and suck AJC A@@ forget posting any opinions.No AJC, I’m not on your payroll.Enjoy pages and pages of suck up.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
3:21 am
BTW, who are those azz holes proposing to trade Jurrjens. They should be hung at high noon!!!
Jay212033
October 29th, 2009
5:18 am
To all the “Braves” fans who say if they trade Jair they will no longer watch the team basically what your saying is that one player is the entire reason you watch the TEAM?!?! If the Braves trade any player it’s with the purpose of getting better and even if it’s my favorite Brave I will still love and support the Braves not just one or two player because this is a business and players come and go.
That being said I wouldn’t mind the Braves trading any player if the price were right so all of you saying you wouldn’t trade JJ, Hanson, McCann or Heyward for anyone need to think first before making statements like that.
Random
October 29th, 2009
5:54 am
P. W. Hjort (October 28th, 2009 11:22 pm) –
“Retire” for the night.
yogi2
October 29th, 2009
6:06 am
Why the Braves would sign Hudson, I dont understand. Hudson and Lowe are hasbens and have had their days of glory. Let them go, and keep on rebuilding. I like the results so far. The Braves have given Hudson millions of Dollars over the past years without much to show for it
Keeper
October 29th, 2009
6:33 am
DOB, same page as you, thus the quotes – it’s only a rumor in the eyes of those who believe blog speculation has any remote connection with reality. I was surprised you felt compelled to even bother shooting it down, but hey, won’t ever complain about having a new blog to read.
RHR
October 29th, 2009
7:28 am
So maybe there’s hope for me liking Tim Tebow after college. He really is too good of a guy not to like.
I can’t believe you.
Knight In ATL
October 29th, 2009
7:34 am
I think the move the Braves should seriously consider is extending Jurrjens contract right now–during this offseason. Take a page out of the Rays front office playbook, ala the Evan Longoria extension. A deal like that would really be a win-win for all parties (save for Boras). We could lock him up now to say a 4-5 year deal, thus avoiding his entire arbitration eligibility years, and lock him in at a rate that would be presumably less than a healthy and dominant Jurrjens would command in arbitration. Likewise, Jurrjens becomes financially set for life in this deal and doesn’t have to worry about an injury derailing his career.
Any possibility of this happening, DOB?
Team of the 2000's
October 29th, 2009
7:59 am
Trade Jurrjens, you have to be kidding me. Why would you even consider that if your Braves management. Hudson, Jurrjens, Hanson, Vazquez one of the best lineups in MLB if you ask me.
We have two pitchers, Lowe and KK who are tradable in a market where there arent a good number of available starters worth much more then KK and Lowe. Teams will be hungry for starters and we have two we can trade. I think Wren will be able to come off with a trade that will bring us a hitter. Chipper needs to step up though and earn his money because he certainely did not do that this year. What a waist of bench space.
Let move back up to #1
October 29th, 2009
8:13 am
Yogi2 – Yes lets try and hang onto Lowe who has a 141-117 record over 14 seasons with a 3.84 era and let Hudson who has a 148-78 record over 11 seasons with a 3.49 era walk away. Hudson is two years younger and dont worry about the Tommy John. All that seems to do is extend a pitchers career over a few more solid years. You take Lowe who did nothing and I will stay with Hudson who even taking a beating by the pen over the last two years still managed to have winning records. Yes I will take Hudson over Lowe. Lowe is washed up but Hudson is not.
Robert
October 29th, 2009
8:17 am
“Would you trade Jurrjens?”
Yes – if the deal is right. Y’all saying you wouldnt trade JJ for Lincecum straight up, for example?
The question is really what should the price be – the answer is high – as in another elite-potential, low-salary underpaid, no-significant-health-worries,mentally sound young player – and something
Dont see it happening
Robert
October 29th, 2009
8:20 am
“Almost half of his games would have been no-decisions (if he pitched on the same days for the Phillies as he did for the Braves), thanks to the shaky Philly bullpen and the tendency for the Phillies to score late in the game.”
NOPE – you forgot context
You are assuming that he would have pitched the same number of innings as he did for the Braves
I contend that he would have been removed earlier in some cases and left in longer in others had he played for the Phillies (or any other team, for that matter) rather than the Braves
Some of those no decisions mightve become decisions and some of the bullpen messups might not have happened
Jonathon
October 29th, 2009
8:21 am
DOB, you said this is Burnett’s first postseason experience. Didn’t he pitch for the Marlins in 2003?
hahahahahyankees
October 29th, 2009
8:28 am
Thank you Phils I want you to repeat but at the same time I do not want you to get a big head for next year!
hahahahahyankees
October 29th, 2009
8:29 am
I would definitley not trade JJ he has way too much talent!
bravofan
October 29th, 2009
8:32 am
Alright since weve heard Hudson is going to resign from our lovely ajc and foxsports I say we try to deal D. Lowe but lets face it not many times will give us a big bat based on his performance last year
Don
October 29th, 2009
8:35 am
Absoultely must not trade the good pitching. Remember the only chance of winning with Bobby Cox is having pitching so far far superior to the other teams that it overcomes his management procedures and lack thereof and makes it almost impossible to lose over the long 162 game regular season schedule.
Dwayne
October 29th, 2009
8:50 am
After the braves start next year off at 3-15, Boobie will be fired. Blah, Blah, Blah on what he did, (what seems like decades ago) in the past. The braves win 10 more games if he would have been relieved of his duties last year. He is an old, senile, poopy pants manager who needs depends. Him and Bowden should retire now and start playing checkers, never mine, that game requires strategy, and neither of them have it.
6-4-3
October 29th, 2009
9:00 am
Would Larry David have the guts to pee on an image of Mohammed? Or the Koran?
Hmmmm… Didn’t think so.
Lew
October 29th, 2009
9:07 am
It goes on and on, ad infintum.
GboroBravo
October 29th, 2009
9:07 am
DOB, did you ever watch Freaks and Geeks? Just finished it, showed it to my girlfriend who never saw it….talk about a great show that was cancelled.
Marv Albert
October 29th, 2009
9:13 am
Roman Gal (October 29th, 2009 12:03 am): “Holy Smokes!
First I can’t read. Now I can’t write. I think it’s high time I hit the hay.
Before you know it, my idioms are going to start biting me in the butt…”
Ise And Idiom!
O.J.
October 29th, 2009
9:15 am
Jonathan, no, he didnt play in the postseason that year for the Marlins, he made 4 starts before having Tommy John surgery and being out the rest of the year. This is his first post season experience.
NEW CARS
October 29th, 2009
9:20 am
I’m one of the guys that floated the idea of trading Juurjens…I believe I asked if we would trade him for Braun…I don’t really know of anyone else, outside of Hanley Ramirez, Longoria, the Upton kid in Arizona, Matt Kemp that I would consider..I just feel like we need a real impact rh bat in the middle of the lineup, for next year and future years…Derek Lowe ain’t going to bring that bat in the form of a young affordable player…That was my only point…I’m not endorsing trading him…I think we are looking at Smoltz and Glavine all over, with JJJ having a chance to have a more dominant presence than Glavine…We just don’t seem to have an answer for a rh cleanup hitter…
RHR
October 29th, 2009
9:24 am
Buster Olney wrote last week that the Braves are in the process of assessing whether there will be a trade market for pitchers Kenshin Kawakami or Derek Lowe. If that interest exists, Buster said that would increase the chances of Hudson re-signing with the Braves. With that mind, could another deal be in the works?
Well…we all know it won’t be KK.
rtrafford
October 29th, 2009
9:27 am
DOB-
curious as to the thoughts behind the comment from the last blog where you indicated your hunch that Roachy would not be resigned.
Bruce's Pearl
October 29th, 2009
9:29 am
Dwayne….your and idiot
Random
October 29th, 2009
9:34 am
6-4-3 (October 29th, 2009 9:00 am): “Would Larry David have the guts to pee on an image of Mohammed? Or the Koran?
“Hmmmm… Didn’t think so.”
Well, there’s a helluva big difference between Jesus and Mohammed, you know.
Mohammed didn’t deflower his own virgin mother.
(I learned that in Mythology 101.)
rtrafford
October 29th, 2009
9:37 am
History has shown us that this organization moves insurance payments on players to a jounal in the books used to offset the cost of insurance, not to offset payroll or add a replacement player. That being said, the addition of Hudson to the 2010 roster at the reduced price plus the trade of Kawakami clears quite a bit of money from what was the 2009 payroll. If we trade Lowe, even more money, but assume for now that Kawi is an easier trade.
Kawi’s deal was front loaded and cost the club close to $10mm in 2009. Hudson was on the books at $13mm. Together they grossed $23mm, and less Hudson at $9mm for 2010 nets the braves $14mm in payroll flexibility for 2010.
With that flexibility we can add a very productive offensive player, even if we can’t find a taker for Lowe.
My guess is that there will be a market for Lowe, be it Milwaukee, Chicago, LA, or Boston. We’re still in good shape if we can’t move Lowe, and likely the rotation is stronger for it.
Braves fans be happy we signed Lowe and not Burnett. Things could have been worse.
Jeff R
October 29th, 2009
9:39 am
The Phillies have been very underestimated going into this series… by the New York media, of course.
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
9:47 am
VaBravesFan they’re saying Mauer will get around 20 million a year…
T-t-t-twenty million a year?? Good lord…that’s ridiculous. I don’t care who you are…
Mac is number 2
To paraphrase Linus: “And being number 2, perhaps he tries harder!”
McCann values the organiztion and values security of the long term deal offered to him at the time.
Yeah! And I love that. He didn’t, ya know, turn it down ’cause he thought he could get more money later like some people I could mention…
He’ll get another big contract and he’ll stay with the Braves cause he seems like a Chipper Jones and wants to be here.
I agree. I see him staying with the Braves. But I shouldn’t have said that…’cause I’m also the one who saw him hitting 40+ doubles in ‘09.
He’s gonna stay a Brave. If he doesn’t…I’ll eat my Braves hat…ya know, if I have control of my functions.
rtrafford
October 29th, 2009
9:54 am
Mac suffered from a season with blurred vision, no Chipper, and no backside protection in the lineup. 2010 should find an uptick in his production. I’d also like to see him back in the 5 and not pressing as hard to be the big bat.
raleighbravefan
October 29th, 2009
10:01 am
Wren’s top priority last year was to rebuild the pitching staff. He did it so well, he is being criticized and cursed. In hindsifght, Lowe is somewhat overpaid, but he is a winner, and a good man in the clubhouse. Who did not want him to sign Lowe when he did? Would you prefer that Wren had given SD what they wanted for Peavey? Would you rather have overpaid (way) for Burnett? That said, it would be good to unload Lowe for something reasonable, and payroll relief. KK is less expensive, signed for 1 less year, and was pitching pretty well last half of year.
If wren does as well for the team this off season as last, we will be in good position going forward. Huddy is a great start on that.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
10:01 am
Would Larry David have the guts to pee on an image of Mohammed? Or the Koran?
he might do it, but soon after he wouldnt have guts, if you know what i mean.
random at 9:34, what are you talking about? thats pretty offensive too.
AndyC
October 29th, 2009
10:11 am
There is no way the Braves should trade JJ. I think DOB has is right. You wait at least through the first two years of arbitration until he gets very expensive. During that time the Braves can attempt to work out a long term deal with Boras. That may not be possible but they will at least try. They can trade him after his second arbitration year and still get a boat load for him assuming that his career keeps progressing. I have a feeling that JJ will be the ace of the staff next season.
Regarding Larry David, I have not seen this current season of Curb because I wait for them to come out on DVD. I am dying to see this season. I have seen all of the previous seasons and everyone who watches the show knows that David does outrageous things on his show. That’s what he does. I don’t think he meant any harm. Although, I will say that the Catholics do have a point in their argument. Would David poke fun at a Jewish religious figure or better yet Islam? Maybe for Jewish but definitely not for Islam.
AndyC
October 29th, 2009
10:15 am
RHR
Why do you say that we know it won’t be KK? If Wren can’t deal Lowe because of his bloated contract, don’t you think he may deal KK simply because he may not have a choice? I agree that he pobably prefers to deal Lowe but he may have to deal KK.
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
10:26 am
rtafford I’d also like to see him back in the 5 and not pressing as hard to be the big bat.
Me, too.
I definitely look forward to 2010…though I will say, despite everything I’ve said about him batting 4th, it’s prob’ly not completely accurate to judge his cleanup performance by this year’s numbers, since he they were hindered by his eyesight, or lack thereof…
Chop Liver
October 29th, 2009
10:33 am
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/29120/mlb-insider-rob-neyer
Bernard (Chicago) – In your Manny Acta blog you mentioned that there really aren’t many great managers in the game. Who’s on your list of great managers?
Rob Neyer – (12:08 PM) – Joe McCarthy, Earl Weaver, John McGraw, Bobby Cox … that’s a good start, anyway. You can throw La Russa in there if you like.
RHR
October 29th, 2009
10:34 am
RHR
Why do you say that we know it won’t be KK?
Because Random said so. Don’t you know anything?
Chop Liver
October 29th, 2009
10:37 am
Trade Kawakami and Lowe and sign the Cuban Chapman.
Hanson, Jurrjens, Chapman, Teheran, and Minor is the rotation of the future
DAP
October 29th, 2009
10:46 am
i just saw that hudson has agreed in principle to the extension. that is good news. this is going to be an interesting offseason.
BossLady
October 29th, 2009
10:50 am
Oh my, a complete game with no earned runs. I love Cliff Lee. Oh yeah,
Chase Utley too. That’s what I call a perfect start to the World Series
GO NATIONAL LEAGUE EAST!!!!!!!!!!
Daslied
October 29th, 2009
10:52 am
Chapman will probably cost $30MM – pass.
A dude at Fangraphs said Hudson will be worth the extension, which isn’t surprising. What is surprising is that he says that KK, Lowe, Vazquez and JO-JO will be battling for the final two slots. There’s your funny for the day.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/atlanta-and-hudson-near-extension/
sri
October 29th, 2009
10:54 am
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/bad-contract-white-elephant
Thundersticks
October 29th, 2009
11:12 am
I believe the market for Lowe will develop once Lackey signs. There isn’t any really good pitching on the market this winter after Lackey. The losers will be looking for someone and Wren will be sitting there with Lowe. Yes, he had a down year. Yes, he is overpaid. Yes, he is on the backside of his career. But desperate GMs will do desperate things when backed into a corner. We may not get the power bat we need for Lowe, but maybe a BP arm or a prospect or two and, more importantly, salary relief.
Rock On......
October 29th, 2009
11:12 am
Since I mentioned outside this blog that I thought the Phillies would win in 5, I will go ahead and go on record here of that prediction. However that holds true only if Lee starts game #4 which I think will happen.
The Braves must maintain a top of the rotation of Vazquez, JJ, and Hanson to be a serious World Series contender in 2010. None of those 3 should be in anyone’s serious trade discussions. Unfounded rumors maybe but that is it. If Hudson is added as the #4 starter then either KK or Lowe is gone as I am sure Wren has some deal already in the works to move one of them. With Medlen you have someone that can be effective as a #5 fill-in should an injury occur.
The Braves’ pitching is in great shape and IMO, 1 through 5, they are the very best in the MLB heading into 2010. We have said this here so many times but moving Lowe is the way to go. Vazquez, JJ, Hanson, Hudson, KK would be my starting 5 assuming Hudson is indeed signed. Even if Hudson is not in the mix we have the best starting 5 in baseball. I can’t see Wren messing that up plus he listens to me this time of year. I just know it. So, sign LaRoche.
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
11:14 am
Cliff Lee was pretty good last night, eh? Damn.
I loved the casual catch to the side, where he didn’t even move, just stuck out the glove. His reaction when asked about it, which included a “whatever,” was exactly what his body language said when he made the catch. Dude was completely unflustered by the whole setting.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
11:16 am
As i mentioned last night i think there will be a domino effect this offseason. ONce the Huddy deal is finalized, Wren already has a few clubs interested in KK and Lowe , possibly even some offers or ideal value he’ll get in return. This Huddy deal is moving quickly so there has to be somthing brewing. I dont see Wren signing him so urgently without having a lead on the next move. Who ever and money involved in the Lowe trade will dictate Atlanta’s next move.
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
11:17 am
Brandon Hicks is off to a solid start in the AFL, batting .323 (10-for-31) with a double, triple, three RBI and a whopping eight walks (though he does have eight Ks, too). He’s tied for seventh in the league in OBP (.475).
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
11:21 am
Jonathon: No, A.J. didn’t pitch for 2003 Marlins in postseason. He was hurt.
Random
October 29th, 2009
11:21 am
DAP (October 29th, 2009 10:01 am): “at 9:34, what are you talking about? thats pretty offensive too.”
To whom? Rush?
Chill out, dude, it’s just a story. In a book.
(Now you see why we usually try to avoid such toics.)
Random
October 29th, 2009
11:22 am
“topics”
Rock On......
October 29th, 2009
11:23 am
VABraveFan……You are correct on Wren moving fast on Hudson so the next move can domino. It wouldn’t surprise me if they came one day apart.
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
11:24 am
Frankie Knuckles: If you know people who swear to never watch Curb Your Enthusiasm because of “the splash” episode, my only surprise is that they were the kind of folks who’d watch the show to begin with. To say it’s an irreverent show that’s not for the easily offended would be a huge understatement.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
11:25 am
Yes will get salary relief if we trade Lowe for not much in return, cause we wont be recieving any major talent prolly a prospect or 2 the deal shouldnt require eating alot of contract. Leaving more money to figure out the back end of the bullpen,Resigning Rochy and possibly resigning Vasquez to a new deal. I believe our new bat will come threw trade considering the FA market isnt that impressive. Lowe could also be traded for a bad contract bat. I rather have the extra cash to use on other stuff.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
11:26 am
DOB
I completly agree, that show is so funny. If that makes em stop watching they had no business watching from the start.
RHR
October 29th, 2009
11:27 am
Cliffy Ice!
Ew. Now I feel dirty.
RHR
October 29th, 2009
11:29 am
Ha!
Random messed up again
Random messed up again
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:34 am
toics, toics! What a major blunder! This is one for the ages.
CB
October 29th, 2009
11:34 am
I think a lot of us are hoping and assuming after the signing of Hudson that Lowe will be traded, we should not be so fast in our thinking. It is also a possibility the Braves have determined there is not a market for Lowe and other decisions may have to be made. We should prepare ourselves for harsh realities,maybe a trade of Vazquez or using one of our starters as a set-up or closer guy. That being said ,somebody take Lowe off our hands.
Ben
October 29th, 2009
11:35 am
Rumors from N.Y. have Matsui signing with Seattle to play with Suzuki, if the Yankees don’t offer him a contract. Perhaps Seattle wants a Japanese pitcher too. K.K. for Gutierrez.
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
11:35 am
To give you guys some idea of the perception by personnel men on this free-agent pitching class: Dodgers GM Ned Colletti said it would be “great” to add a top-of-the-rotation pitcher but that is unlikely. He apparently is not a fan of John Lackey, expected to be the top pitcher in the free-agent market.
“With regard to free agency, this class to me doesn’t have that type of allure to it,” Colletti said. “It’s a thin market in my mind. We have to continue to grow from within and hope we can do everything we can to help our own people graduate to that level.”
(thanks to former AJC baseball writer Gerry Fraley for that note)
abwright
October 29th, 2009
11:36 am
VaBraveFan, 11:16 am … “This Huddy deal is moving quickly so there has to be somthing brewing.”
Braves have to exercise or decline Hudson’s $12M option about five days after the conclusion of the WS. Since the Philthies are going to sweep the Yank-mes, Wren and Hudson are moving to conclude this deal before the option becomes an issue.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
11:42 am
random To whom?
no, to me, and lots of other people. by the way, do you know the “story”? because what you said isnt in it.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
11:43 am
Ben
That is interesting the Mariners could use another starter. Gutierrez
is 26, and had pretty good year 18 homers and 70 rbis while hitting 283. Those numbers could improve, he has the ability to steal 15-20 bases aswell. Not sure if they would move him considering Beltre and Branyan might not be back with them. Also we dont know if the Braves want to really trade KK and mess up future contracts with Japenese players. Buts its a good idea. Not the big we really want but he has a little pop with speed and good defense. And Lowe will be number 5 starter, looks pretty good to me, but i still rather trade Lowe and his 45 million.
monty
October 29th, 2009
11:43 am
DOB
Great call going with Philly, they have more ways to beat you than the Yankees. Utley and Lee were great last night. What a powerful (seemingly) effortless swing Utley has! I’ll take philly in 6. I thought along with others that 3yrs-27 mil. sounded about right for Huddy. He probably could have scraped up another 3-6 mil. on the open market. Philly’s offense just wears on you. You might get through their lineup the 1st 2-3 times but you just know there is a crooked number waiting for you at some point.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:45 am
Loved Lee’s “snatch” of Damon’s little pop up. That was great.
Dave, the Jurrjens question has made for some interesting banter on the blog. There are always some guys on a club that are totally off limits, but can you ever say never? Heck, Hank Aaron got traded.
Once in a rare while, you see a big name player get moved, but for JJ to get dealt, it would have to be the perfect storm. A top player on the other team is blocking another up and comer, and that other team is in dire need of a starting pitcher. As many have stated, if the Brewers were stacked in hard hitting right handed outfielders, they might think about it.
Realistically though, it ain’t happening.
BUT, I will reiterate two points. One, pitchers careers are more tenuous than positional players, and their careers can be OVER with the wrong arm injury. Two, positional players are more likely to have longer, injury free, extended careers than pitchers. This is all generally speaking.
I expect Jurrjens to be a Brave for a LONG time. But I would damn sure trade him for a handful of current major league players in a heartbeat (the more I think on it, Pujols is NOT one of them).
I might even consider dealing him for a top prospect or two. If you could answer the third base question for the next 15 years, you would have to think about it, wouldn’t ya?
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
11:47 am
abwright
That is true but Huddy really wants to be in Atlanta if he doesnt even want to take a peek into free agency. I’m sure he could get a batter deal with the lack of Starting Pitching in FA. But i believe that Huddy would accept Atlanta’s deal over any other offer cause he wants to play here and were giving him a fair and secure contract. Wren has to have something involving Lowe or KK or enven Javy (yikes) brewing in the pot.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
11:53 am
Wayne in Utah
JJ for a couple top prospects isnt a good deal at all. JJ is 23 and already pitches like a allstar, and we have control of him for 4 more season at cheap price considering his talent. to trade JJ we would have to get a young outfielder thats in the same class as JJ. Or a mid age slugger and a few prospects after. Its hard to put a price tag on a young pitcher, but i’m sure not gonna trade him for top prospects that never played a big league game.
monty
October 29th, 2009
11:54 am
Random
“to Whom”
To me!
flange 1
October 29th, 2009
11:55 am
Morning All,
Been traveling so I am behind on blogging! Just finished this catching up on this blog and would like to throw in my 2 cents on JJJ!
I would love to keep JJJ for a long time. If Boras would allow, sign him early!
But I think PWH had an excellent comment early on, if you can get more value from a trade, then you have to consider that trade.
I will give you an example that I have been thinking about for the last couple of months.
We all know the Florida Marlins franchise is cheap when it comes to contracts with their players. They have also been waiting for a new stadium deal for the last decade, and even thought a new stadium is supposed to happen, I will believe it is going to happen when I see concrete coming out of the ground.
We heard “rumors” of the Marlins players being unhappy with the work ethic of Hanley Rameriez, a pretty decent player with a great contract (expensive for the Marlins though)
They also have a great young JJ of their own (Josh Johnson) that is looking for a new contract and is not interested in any home town discounts.
Would the Marlins consider a Hanley + Josh Johnson for Yunel + JJ? It gives them good young CHEAP players.
Would the Braves consider it?
That is the type of deal in which I could envision JJJ getting traded…..
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:56 am
Realistically, who are the teams that could/would take on a pitcher like Lowe’s salary? Yankees? Cubbies? I think the Red Sox are set for starters. Maybe the Brewers?
Would Colorado need a sinkerball pitcher? Could you wrap your head around a Lowe for Todd Helton deal? Two large contracts. Helton has slipped, and I think he has had a worrisome back. But he still can hit. Kinda declining though, like Chipper.
Just brainstorming. Not sure I like that idea, the more I ponder on it.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
12:00 pm
flange1
That is exactly the type of scenario it would take to move a guy like Jurrjens. We would be trading one drama queen SS for another all-star drama queen SS. I like it!
Don
October 29th, 2009
12:03 pm
It is amazing that the Braves plan/work/worry relating to possible trades, free agent signings, making the budget work etc — yet completely ignore the most significant, simple, cheap action that would help the team more than anything else — FIRE BOBBY COX.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:04 pm
flange 1
awesome observation
Actually i would rather do a JJ and Hanley Swap st8 up. Something most people dont know is Hanley defense isnt so great at SS and there has been talk of moving him to centerfield in Florida. I could see the Marlins doing it if we took all of Hanleys contract and they get total salary relief and great young pitcher. Hanley is one of those types u dont trade, but if he is causeing problems on the team it could get worse. Change of Scenery would be nice for him. Hanley will want out when he see that the Marlins dont have the payroll to compete every year. the marlins payroll is around 37 mil total…. Arod makes 29 mil a year….. put him on the marlins they would have 8 million to spend on the other 24 guys….. He’s gonna want out. Plug him in CF move McLouth to Left… lmao but it will never happen but fun talk…
Master of Karate and Friendship
October 29th, 2009
12:04 pm
http://msn.foxsports.com/rumors/mlb
Look at the top rumor! Look what you’ve done, DOB! Yellow Journalism!
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
12:07 pm
Don, you might have missed it. Braves and Cox announced he’s managing one more year, then moving into a consulting/advisory role. That happened near the end of last season. So that kind of takes your suggestion off the table. But thanks for the input.
Bad Scooter
October 29th, 2009
12:07 pm
I thought it would be tough to top the last season of Curb, but I don’t see any fall off this season. Probably the funniest show TV right now, right up there with the Office, 30 Rock, and It’s Always Sunny.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
12:09 pm
Thats retarded! Or at least his take is! Why in the blue hell would we trade JJ to LA just to get Billingsley?!
We NEED a bat and thus would be trading any of our pitchers for one unless its Lowe and that would be done for salary relief to get said BAT!
WOW! Its just amazing the stuff they allow to be posted on foxsports.com these days.
glove51
October 29th, 2009
12:12 pm
I’m A Christian, I thought the Curb episode was hilarious.
He didn’t “urinate on Christ”, he inadvertently splashed urine on a cheesy painting of Christ which was hangin direclty over a toilet.
I would suggest that, with the extremely strong, coarse language that is a regular feature of the show, I find it very hard to believe that any Christian who felt comfortable watching the show anyway, would take offense to that particular episode.
But people display some weird logic sometimes, so what do I know?
Boo Boo
October 29th, 2009
12:16 pm
I know this has to have been asked before, but it is illiterate to advertise this article on the main page by stating, “WHO YOU TRADE THIS?” Does that make any sense?
LoMel
October 29th, 2009
12:16 pm
DOB, you’re making a non-rumor into a rumor!
Just kidding, of course, but ESPN now has a link to this story on their rumors page: http://bit.ly/3n2ChD
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
12:17 pm
Bad Scooter: Agree with your 12:07. Those are my favorite four comedies. Modern Family is also quite good, but not quite on the level of those four, for me.
Hef
October 29th, 2009
12:18 pm
Of the Starting pitchers, to trade Lowe makes the most sense, not only because it would free up salary space,but because of production. Sadly I don’t know if we will be able to unload him. Free agents available that I find appealing and fit a need (power bat) – Hank Blalock,Jason Bay,Carl Crawford,Matt Holliday,& Adam LaRoche. I’d be happy to see the Brave’s sign any one of the above.
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
12:19 pm
glove51: Exactly. Well said.
Hef
October 29th, 2009
12:20 pm
DOB-Yeah I love Modern Family,always was a Al Bundy Fan. I played at Polk High also!!!
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
12:21 pm
Pujols and Mauer have been named Most Outstanding Player in their respective leagues by the players (Players Choice Awards).
Hef
October 29th, 2009
12:24 pm
Mauer’s a stud,probably the best all around player in the bigs. If he played in a bigger market I think he’d have much more acclaim.
Bravedawg
October 29th, 2009
12:29 pm
The headline on the ajc.com front page that reads “Who you trade him?” notwithstanding, I wish the title of this blog was worded a bit differently, DOB. I know, it’s not like Frank Wren is going to read it and go “Hey, maybe I should trade Jair! And for 10 cents on the dollar!” but it just kinda seems like it was written that way solely for page view purposes.
Before you respond:
1. I know that you’ve said before that you don’t write the headlines…I’m just mentioning it for whoever does.
2. I know that you spend the majority of the article writing why the Braves would be CRAZY to trade him, but as I’m sure you know, the internet allows just about anyone to use it, regardless of their IQ…so I’m sure some dumb people read that headline, and not the blog, and go around telling their friends that Jurrjens is on the trading block.
3. AGAIN, I don’t think this one blog piece is going to persuade Wren to trade Jurrjens…the headline just seems a bit irresponsible.
Marc in FL
October 29th, 2009
12:34 pm
Wren already has a plan, he wouldn’t be trying to get the Hudson deal done if he didn’t. I don’t know what it is, I don’t know if locking up Hudson for 3 more years is even all that smart, but hopefully this team is in good hands. I I would imagine we’ll have to eat at least 2mil a year on Lowe’s contract, and maybe 1 mil a year on KK’s. I have a funny feeling JV is getting the boot, probably for another 1 one year contract like a Fielder or Lee.
37YrBravesFan
October 29th, 2009
12:41 pm
Go Phils!
Chuck Uga
October 29th, 2009
12:42 pm
IDIOTS, IDIOTS, IDIOTS, IDIOTS, IDIOTS!!!!
YOU DON’T TRADE ONE OF YOUR TOP PITCHING PROSPECTS WHEN YOU DON’T HAVE ANYONE ON THE ROSTER WHO CAN HIT 35 HOME RUNS!! THIS IS WHY FRANK WREN AND JOHN SCHURHOLZ NEED TO LEAVE!! YOU ARE RUINING THIS TEAM LONG TERM!! THIS IS WHY NO ONE BOTHERS COMING TO THE GAMES ANYMORE!! QUIT TRADING AWAY OUR YOUNG PLAYERS! GO TO HELL LIBERTY MEDIA OWNERSHIP!!!!
Random
October 29th, 2009
12:43 pm
DAP (October 29th, 2009 11:42 am): “no, to me, and lots of other people. by the way, do you know the “story”? because what you said isnt in it.”
So, you’re saying the Baby Jesus was delivered by C-section?
“And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed”? Nope — not the same Caesar.
Use your head, man. Depucelation from within.
Hi, Monty. Better now?
Chuck Uga
October 29th, 2009
12:45 pm
P.S. NAIVE BRAVES FANS AND NAIVE SPORTSWRITERS!! WAKE UP!! THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO RUN A CLUB IF YOU WANT TO GET BACK TO THE PLAYOFFS!! DOESN’T ANYONE REMEMBER GLAVINE/MADDOX/SMOLTZ PITCHING MACHINGE?! YOU WIN WITH PITCHING AND LONG BALL! IF YOU DON’T HAVE ONE, YOU SURE AS HECK DON’T GET RID OF THE OTHER!!!!!!!!!
Random
October 29th, 2009
12:45 pm
Whoa, Chuck Uga.
Wow — just wow.
Keith
October 29th, 2009
12:45 pm
Thanks, again, for writing your blog, Dave!! Really enjoy reading it.
No way they trade Jurjens. There were stretches when he was better than Carpenter or Wainright and if he would have gotten Lowe’s run support, he might clinch the award with 21 wins. Keep Jurjens. Keep hanson.
Prefer to trade Lowe, but who will they really get for him?
I say keep vasquez, too, but they might have to part with him to land a true stud (35 hrs, 100+ rbi). If not, I say try to trade Lowe.
Here’s an idea: Sign Holliday and keep the pitching. Can they afford doing that, Dave?
Efrim
October 29th, 2009
12:46 pm
lose a Bisher, gain a Bisher
That made me laugh. You got me there, nolie!
Keith
October 29th, 2009
12:49 pm
Oh and on the AJC front page, it says, “Who you really trade Jurrjens?”
Might want to edit that.
Chuck Uga
October 29th, 2009
12:49 pm
P.S.S. WHY CAN’T SCOTT BORAS GET RUN OVER BY A BUS OR SOMETHING? MAYBE A STEAMROLLER? MAYBE HIRE SOMEONE TO “MAKE HIM DISAPPEAR?”
Marc in FL
October 29th, 2009
12:50 pm
Keith, I don’t think they could afford that. If they do somehow trade Lowe and get a 1-2mil a year guy in return (maybe a closer type or something), then they could probably afford to get Holliday or Bay with GA, Laroche, Church, KJ, and one of our two closers coming off the books.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
12:50 pm
Calm down Chuck! You’re gonna drop a lung and blow out your o-ring.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
12:51 pm
Chuck Uga
Calm down man, its just something to talk about and were mainly talking about Lowe and KK and the rest of the offseason.
Were just making good conversation on what JJ value is and what he could possibly bring in return, no one wants to rid of JJ , but its not like some people have mentioned trading Chipper and that is even a worse idea……
Efrim
October 29th, 2009
12:52 pm
Cliff Lee was pretty good last night, eh? Damn.
Just can’t wait to see what Lou Marson, Jason Donald, Jason Knapp(recovering from shoulder surgery) and Carlos Carassco perform like at the major league level. Yes, Shapiro had limitations in finding the right deal for him because apparently they were cash strapped. But they couldn’t get one, NOT ONE, of Taylor, Brown, Drabek or D’Arnaud for Cliff Lee? I guess people just thought the guy was ho-hum, good but not great. I’m pretty sure he has better velocity this year and last than he ever has. And I can’t remember his knuckle curve having that type of depth and break on it when he was with the Indians. I’m really just jealous that the Phillies pulled off an amazing deal like that. Now the Braves have to deal with him next year, possibly beyond if they extend him.
I blame Omar. He traded Lee, Sizemore and Phillips for Colon. Yup. This mess is Omar’s fault.
Gov Clinton Tyree
October 29th, 2009
12:53 pm
I don’t feel like reading all this crap, but the idea of dealing Jurrjens is galactically retarded.
Hell.No. Hell to the No.
Not only is he arguably our best pitcher, we need affordable contributors to make the payroll work.
No, profoundly no, for so many reasons. No.
C's
October 29th, 2009
12:53 pm
Yeah, Scott Boras sucks. He does his job and does it very well. Gotta hate a guy for that…..
Efrim
October 29th, 2009
12:53 pm
Keith Law had this take on Jair Jurrjens:
“Jurrjens is definitely a cornerstone arm. He’s not a No. 1 starter, but he’s better than a middle-of-the-rotation guy, and he’s dirt cheap at the moment, which is critical for a team like Atlanta that never seems to have much payroll flexibility. I think the trade where Atlanta got Jurrjens has really been overlooked — they got him from Detroit for Edgar Renteria after Renteria had a great season in Atlanta. Turns out that Renteria was cooked, so they got six years of Jurrjens for a guy who no longer had any value.”
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
12:54 pm
VA-
How is trading Chipper an even worse idea? What did he do last year that was better than JJ?!
I mean I don’t wanna trade him either, but I stopped smoking the Chipper lettuce and believing he was 1999 Chipper a long time ago, why haven’t some of you?
I do believe that Kool-Aid pitcher is about empty….
CJ
October 29th, 2009
12:56 pm
Random (regarding your 10:15 post from last night). Please read what I said again:
“No, I don’t think the Braves have any plans at all to trade JJ. However, if they were offered Evan Longoria, Matt Kemp, Adrian Gonzalez, Justin Upton, or Ryan Braun for him they would be stark raving MAD not to accept – and quickly.”
I said OR……not ALL of those players. Any ONE of those players has tons more value than Jurrjens alone. Read more carefully before you insult someone.
KC
October 29th, 2009
12:59 pm
Chipper can’t be traded unless he wants to be traded. 10-5 veto powers.
If Chipper has a big bounce-back season next year, the Braves wouldn’t want to part with him anyway. If he doesn’t bounce back, he’s likely to go ahead and retire. Either way, he’ll retire a Brave.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
12:59 pm
chuck uga, relax buddy. no one is trading jair. no one even said they were going to.
CB
October 29th, 2009
1:01 pm
Yeah,Random, you ignorant slut!
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
1:02 pm
P-Town Brave
Umm remember how the Tom Glavine and John Smoltz situations went down and we didnt even trade them. Trading Chipper would be the biggest mistake , the fan base would be ready to riot….. He cant be traded anyway cause of the no trade clause…. It pops up here to much when someone mentioned trading him or releasing him. Chipper Jones is Atlants Braves Baseball. Just because he has a average player year at the plate everyone panics, and throws him under the bus like he is 28 and can carry this team like back n the day.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
1:03 pm
random, please stop. your statement was perverted. if youd like to discuss further, feel free to email me: daalper@yahoo.com
KC
October 29th, 2009
1:04 pm
CJ, any one of those players has “TONS” more value than a young ace? A guy with a 2.60 ERA who is only getting better, and will be cheap for the next few years??
I think there are 30 General Managers who would disagree with you. That my be some who feel any of those players have as much value as Jurrjens… depending on their philosophy (pitching first or offense first). But there isn’t a single General Manager in baseball who would agree with your assessment that each of the players above have “TONS” more value than Jurrjens. No offense, but that’s absurd.
KC
October 29th, 2009
1:05 pm
Typos… sorry. Meant to say… “There may be some who feel any of those players have…”
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
1:09 pm
Jon Heyman of SI.com suggests (via Twitter) that the Red Sox might be willing to offer Jason Bay $60MM over four years. Heyman can see the Giants and, possibly, the Mets bidding more than that for the Canadian left fielder.
So, would you match or offer more than this for Jason Bay?
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
1:10 pm
Pittsburgh’s Andrew McCutchen is Baseball America’s major league Rookie of the Year. Just got my issue in mail.
Hanson’s obviously on the all-rookie team (they don’t do separate teams or ROYs for each league, just nine players and five pitchers).
DAP
October 29th, 2009
1:13 pm
P-town, id match that if the money was there.
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
1:13 pm
Also, Mike Minor is No. 5 on their closest-to-the-majors list for pitchers (Strasburg is No. 1). And Minor’s changeup is rated as the fourth-best “secondary pitch” from players drafted this year. (Strasburg is rated No. 1 for best fastball and for best secondary pitch.)
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
1:16 pm
If we could somehow dump Lowe’s contract with eating any of it. I could see the braves putting a 4 yr 60 million out there. If will pay that much for a 36 y/o pitcher why not Jason Bay???? Atleast give him a offer knowing it wont compete but u never know, most players do want to play for bobby and the braves.
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
1:17 pm
Bravedawg: Irresponsible headline on this blog? No. It’s not.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
1:17 pm
****without eating any of Lowes contract********
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
1:19 pm
VA-
Like I said, I don’t want to trade him, just making a point.
And while we’re on it, what fan base are you talking about?
The ones who don’t go to the park (ie 25k during the biggest game of the playoff race)?
If you’re talking about some of us who live over 1k miles away, well, we don’t matter as much to the bottom line as we may buy the merchandise and take trips to see the team play, BUT the reality is I take trips to St. Louis and Chicago which go to those teams bottom lines and merchandise I buy from mlb.com is split towards the entity of MLB.
So not to steer too far off topic, but what fan base would riot? I mean there’s not much further down you can go from “few” at the ballpark.
IF I wanted to throw anyone under the bus as you said, it wouldn’t be Chipper, it would be the fans.
Bingo halls have more of a pulse than most Brave home games!
I mean if I were a free agent and wanted to play in front of a crowd, why would I choose the Braves if the Dodgers (Furcal), the Yankees (Burnett), the Cardinals (Holliday), or Red Sox (Bay) offered me similar money?
Yes the last two have not occured, but I fully expect them to.
I have been a Braves fan for a LONG time, but maybe someone could tell me what the appeal would be playing in Atlanta other than w/ that pitching staff.
And if the team were to trade JJ or Javy, wouldn’t that take that one positive piece we have away?!
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
1:23 pm
I was using “riot” not acutally meaning riot lol. There would be alot of Upset fans and things going on with the media to make it a bad situation. Chipper leaving would overshadow any move the Braves would have made in the offseason lol, crazy to be talking about this
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
1:26 pm
To follow up on my previous…
Just think about it, a great percentage of the REAL fans that come onto this blog aren’t from the Atlanta area.
Where are the fans that are from the area?!
My obvious guess…the SportsSouth commercials lie because there aren’t that many. Most of the fans in that area aren’t baseball fans, but football and basketball fans and maybe baseball as their third sport.
Up here in the midwest, we live and die by our baseball and college basketball is our secondary sport with football 3rd. We even take our high school sports and put them up higher than college or even pro football. Things are just very different up here than down there and I assume its that way across the different areas of the country.
My guess is that the only hope is that Georgia football continues to suck, while GT football goes back into a hole, and the Falcons start having troubles again…
Seems like that may be the only way the Braves get back to being #1 in the area.
dmack2027
October 29th, 2009
1:27 pm
I suspect the Braves will hold onto Kawakami. The media attention and publicity he recieves across the pond is ridiculous. I am sure he does well in merchandise sales as well. He might be too valuable off the field to think about trading.
Dave, do you get any sense what the Braves are thinking about 1B?
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
1:28 pm
VA-
I know it was a hypothetical, but thanks. It got me to thinking how much I really despise the fans from the area down there and how much it sickens me every time I watch a Braves broadcast and see all the empties and fans that don’t know how to get off their *sses and out of their seats!
abwright
October 29th, 2009
1:29 pm
VaBraveFan, 11:47 am
I agree that there might be something brewing, but I don’t think there has to be.
I agree that Huddy will probably want to stay in ATL for a lot of reasons. However, on the FA market, I suspect that he would not get a multi-year deal.
2010 is going to be a make or break year for Huddy. Imagine if he had a one year deal and “pulled a Hammy.” (I mean by that, had a reinjury like Mike Hampton did.) He’d have to go through another surgery and rehab with no guarantee that anyone would pick him up. Kind of like Mark Prior or Ben Sheets.
So, I suspect that the multi-year part of the deal is much more important than the salary part. If Huddy has a healthy 2010, then, the sky’s the limit. If not, he would have a couple of years to get healthy.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
1:33 pm
DOB-
Hope you’re looking forward to basketball tipping off as much as I am.
Practices have already started, the first closed scrimmage is Sat. afternoon against DePaul and the first exhibition is a week from Sunday.
I get to go pickup my season tix later tonight. Can’t wait for the season opener @ BYU on the 13th. Will be a tough one for sure!
We have 4 incoming Freshmen that are lookin good and return 2 stars from injury redshirt last season.
One of my two favorite times of year, early November to go along w/ March
The best to your Jayhawks. Hope to meet ya again in March
Random
October 29th, 2009
1:35 pm
CJ (October 29th, 2009 12:56 pm): “(regarding your 10:15 post from last night). Please read what I said again:
“ ‘No, I don’t think the Braves have any plans at all to trade JJ. However, if they were offered Evan Longoria, Matt Kemp, Adrian Gonzalez, Justin Upton, or Ryan Braun for him they would be stark raving MAD not to accept – and quickly.’
“I said OR……not ALL of those players. Any ONE of those players has tons more value than Jurrjens alone. Read more carefully before you insult someone.”
Will do. (or at least I’ll try better.) I guess you missed my earlier apology:
P. W. Hjort (October 28th, 2009 10:52 pm): “I believe you misread the conjunction in the last thing you quoted in your 10:15. He said “or”, not “and”.”
Random (October 28th, 2009 11:06 pm): “Oops.
Sorry, CJ.
Thanks, P. W. Hjort.
(Funny thing is, I caught it in Tomas’ at 9:24, but failed to double check CJ’s. My bad, all. My cue to retire, I think.)”
. . .
It was my bad, CJ and I am sorry and I do apologize.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
1:35 pm
dmack2027
Yeah Kawakami would be wise to keep not just for those reason but the guy is a good pitcher. 3.86 ERA i’ll take that anyday from a 4th or 5th starter. He had the worst run support on the team. Also he swtiched from a 6 man rotation to a 5 man so it was a big ajustment going on one less day of rest here in the Majors. I think KK will have a solid year and 7 million isnt a bad price for a pitcher of his caliber if he is starting.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
1:37 pm
CJ, any one of those players has “TONS” more value than a young ace? A guy with a 2.60 ERA who is only getting better, and will be cheap for the next few years??
Listen people. Jair Jurrjens is NOT an ace, not even close to it. He is a very good young pitcher but that’s all. If you don’t believe me, look at some of his stats (Jurrjens K/9: 6.36, BB/9: 3.14,K/BB: 2.03,FIP: 3.72, xFIP: 4.44). These are not “ace” stats. You people are just being homers if you don’t think that Longoria, Kemp, Adrian Gonzalez, Justin Upton, OR Ryan Braun are worth a lot more than JJ. The hitters I mentioned are all young ELITE power hitting young players that are signed cheaply for at least the next couple of years. However, none of those players would EVER be offered for Jair Jurrjens alone….and I can guarantee you that 30 General Managers would agree with that.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
1:38 pm
Sorry, Random – I did miss your apology.
Daslied
October 29th, 2009
1:46 pm
It’s amazing how little of the blog (or the written word in general) people actually read. Apparently 5-8 words in bold type is all the info they need.
Headline: “Obama Mulls North Korea Options”
Reaction: “OH MY GOD WERE GOING TO BOMB VIETNAM AGAIN”
Headline: “Health Care Bill Provides Public Option”
Reaction: “OH MY GOD I CAN GET A FREE BOOB JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Headline: “Smoking Scientifically Linked To Cancer”
Reaction: “OH MY GOD I KNEW IT I JUST READ ON WIKIPEDIA THAT THE MUSLIMS INVENTED CIGARETTES TO PAY FOR REBUILDING THEIR COUNTRY AFTER WORLD WAR II BECAUSE CHINA WAS BLEW UP”
Headline: “Would You Really Trade Jurrjens?”
Reaction: “OH MY GOD COX MUST GO TO THE DONKEY FARM SO HE HAS TIME TO GET ELECTED TO THE BOOGER-PICKER HALL OF FAME BEFORE HE DIES FROM PICKING HIS NOSE AND BEING A DONKEY”
Rob from SC
October 29th, 2009
1:48 pm
DOB
Who is on the cover of the newest baseball america issue
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
1:48 pm
This:
Listen people. Jair Jurrjens is NOT an ace, not even close to it. He is a very good young pitcher but that’s all. If you don’t believe me, look at some of his stats (Jurrjens K/9: 6.36, BB/9: 3.14,K/BB: 2.03,FIP: 3.72, xFIP: 4.44). These are not “ace” stats. You people are just being homers if you don’t think that Longoria, Kemp, Adrian Gonzalez, Justin Upton, OR Ryan Braun are worth a lot more than JJ. The hitters I mentioned are all young ELITE power hitting young players that are signed cheaply for at least the next couple of years. However, none of those players would EVER be offered for Jair Jurrjens alone….and I can guarantee you that 30 General Managers would agree with that.
Is exactly right. I don’t think you can reasonably disagree with it. Look at things the way they are, not the way you want them to be, people.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
1:50 pm
CJListen people. Jair Jurrjens is NOT an ace, not even close to it.
your problem is you keep using the broad terms. he not even CLOSE to being an ace? there arent 5 starters in the majors that performed better than him last year. some people would call that an ace, and many more would qualify it as at least being close.
sure, ryan braun is worth JJ, but your “TONS” more value comment (another way to broad statement) is where you veered off.
Random
October 29th, 2009
1:50 pm
DAP (October 29th, 2009 1:03 pm): “please stop. your statement was perverted. if youd like to discuss further, feel free to email me”
Touchy, eh? See what happens when you take folklore and fairy tales literally and to their logical conclusions?
Okay, okay, I’ll stop (since you said “please”).
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
1:51 pm
Rob Neyer on Hudson:
Does anyone have a deeper group of starting pitchers than the Atlanta Braves? As David O’Brien reports, it looks like Tim Hudson will soon re-up for another three seasons:
*DOB’s Hudson Article*
Great move by the Braves if those seven late-season starts indicate what the next two or three seasons will look like.
As Craig points out, the Braves now have six perfectly viable starting pitchers: Hudson,
Javier Vazquez, Jair Jurrjens, Tommy Hanson, Derek Lowe, and Kenshin Kawakami. They’ve also got 23-year-old Kris Medlen, who was mostly a reliever this season but has real promise as a starter.
A trade would seem to be in order … but for what, exactly? With exception of one corner outfield spot, the Braves would seem to be set at every position … and super-prospect Jason Heyward is going to be ready to take over in right field real soon. He’s just turned 20 and has hardly played in Triple-A, so the Braves might send him back there to start next season. But he doesn’t figure to be there for long, so the Braves don’t figure to make a trade for an every-day right fielder.
Frank Wren must be feeling pretty good right now. He’ll probably try to trade Kawakami, and probably won’t get a lot for him. But he doesn’t need much. He’ll probably have the best rotation in the National League, and he’ll have good players at almost every position. The Phillies obviously will enter 2010 as the favorites in the East. But the Braves are looking pretty good, right now, for the wild card.
Rock On......
October 29th, 2009
1:52 pm
CJ…semantics, the Braves have 3 aces in my opinion. Call them ace of diamonds, clubs, hearts. Maybe no ace of spades but they have the potential to be and to say they aren’t aces I don’t agree with. In fact on probably over half the MLB teams any of them could be a #1 starter. Jurrjens is certainly capable of ace status if not already. Don’t get me wrong they aren’t Koufax, Ryan, Maddux-like just yet but they are certainly ace material. No question about that. Jurrjens needs only a little more of a sample and obviously Hanson, with Vazquez needing only to prove that 2009 wasn’t a fluke.
Random
October 29th, 2009
1:54 pm
doG, CJ, no need for you to apologize.
After all, I was the @ss in the exchange that started it all. The chickens simply came home to roost. I just hope I learned my lesson.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
1:56 pm
Rock On….
Totally agree with you on that statement.
CB
October 29th, 2009
2:04 pm
Do I consider JJ an “ace” ? Yes Do I care how he got the batters out on the way to a 2.60era? NO Stats are only to be used to bring you to a final conclusion- JJ had a great season. One day all his peripherals might be great and his ERA will suck. Which would you rather have? We know ERA does not mean everything in the judgement of a pitcher,but it still is the best judge for a starter.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
2:07 pm
DAP “…there arent 5 starters in the majors that performed better than him last year.”
While I agree that my semantics weren’t the best I do totally disagree with the above statement.
Zack Greinke
Tim Lincecum
Chris Carpenter
Roy Halladay
Felix Hernandez
Cliff Lee
Javier Vazuez
Jon Lester
Dan Haren
CC Sabathia
Adam Wainwright
Ubaldo Jimenez
Josh Johnson
Josh Beckett
Wandy Rodriquez
All of these guys had better overall stats/value than JJ last year.
Rock On......
October 29th, 2009
2:08 pm
Now, Lee last night? That was vintage Koufax-like. Talk about an ace of spades.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
2:08 pm
whoooops….sorry for the bold italic font…
CJ
October 29th, 2009
2:09 pm
Yes, Lee was incredible last night. One of the best pitching/fielding performances I have ever seen.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
2:20 pm
CJ thats fine, man. i myself could make an argument for each one of them. but some the guys you mentioned have an ERA a full run higher than jair. ERA isnt the end-all stat (no stat is) but its a big one and jair ranked #5 in the majors in that category. to say jair isnt even CLOSE? if you really think about it, im sure you arent arrogant enough to say its unreasonable for someone to say jurrjens is at least CLOSE to being an ace.
ncscoots
October 29th, 2009
2:20 pm
Jurrjens had an incredible year, yes. Some of his peripherals (the high LOB percentage, for example) might indicate that such a level of success is not sustainable, yes. But there is certainly a chance that his skill set will improve enough to offset any regression that might occur due to some of his “luck” evening out. I don’t think he’s a finished product yet, so we don’t really have norms for him.
As Braveheart said, he may be one of those pitchers who can stand having high inverse FIP/ERA numbers. On the other hand, he may improve his game to the point that those inverse conditions no longer occur. Too soon to tell.
reagan
October 29th, 2009
2:24 pm
Chuck UGA……..”Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?!” PS….on your keyboard you will see where it says…”Caps Lock”……tap it once please.
TnBrian
October 29th, 2009
2:24 pm
The only negative about Jurrjens is that he walks way too many guys. He almost walks as many guys as he K’s but seems to work out of the messes he creates. He’s a very good pitcher that will get better, so leave it at that & quit bitching back & forth over whether or not he’s an “ace”. Who gives a flyin fu**? He’s good & that’s all that matters, plus Vazquez is the number 1 guy for 2010 anyways.
TnBrian
October 29th, 2009
2:26 pm
Oh, and my ass Atlanta doesn’t need an everyday cleanup hitter for next year. Does this Neyer even know what he’s talking about? I think not. You want Mac in that spot again? Not me & I’ll bet Chipper is praying the team finds an every day cleanup hitter too.
PWillie
October 29th, 2009
2:27 pm
What? An entire blog without the mention of the evil Rush Limbaugh? It thought this was a political blog? Go figure…….. Shouldn’t sports writers use their forum for their own political views?
Seriously, its a myth that we come here to get away from politics and agenda driven drivel. We actually come here for political guidance……..from a sports writer.
KC
October 29th, 2009
2:31 pm
CJ: “Listen people. Jair Jurrjens is NOT an ace, not even close to it.”
For a starting pitcher, there a few things that really and truly matter. You look at ERA, innings pitched, and quality starts. Quality starts matter because it tells you how ofter a pitcher gave his team a good chance to win the game. K/9 and all that other stuff you mentioned… it’s meaningless. There are different ways to arrive at positive result. Some guys strike out a lot of hitters, others pitch to contact (or did Greg Maddux not strike out enough hitters to qualify as an ace in your book?).
All that matters in the end is how often a starter keeps the other team from scoring, how consistently he does it, and how many innings he gives you. That’s it. The rest is window dressing.
In 2009, Jair Jurrjens was:
#3 in NL ERA (2.60)
#2 in Quality Starts (25… second only to Lincecum’s 26)
#10 in innings pitched
Since you like ancillary stats, we’ll throw a couple of those in there:
#9 in WHIP (among pitchers with 200+ inns)
#3 in fewest HR’s allowed (200+ inns)
Jurrjens had a lower ERA and more quality starts than any of these NL starters:
Adam Wainwright
Dan Haren
Cliff Lee
Josh Johnson
Chris Carpenter
Matt Cain
Johan Santana
Congratulations… you’re assertion that Jurrjens “isn’t even close” to being an ace is officially the most absurd thing I can remember hearing on this blog (and that’s saying something).
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
2:31 pm
This team can win without a true cleanup hitter.
Need more speed on basepaths.
Play better Defense.
Less Blown Saves
But its better to go ahead and get a real cleanup guy like most major league teams have….
Anthony
October 29th, 2009
2:35 pm
DOB,
I would be interested in getting your take on Medlen. I feel like we are wasting his talent in long relief in the bullpen. The guy proved he could start and be dominate at the AAA level. I know he was roughed up a bit in his starts but the guy is young and he can’t develop if he’s only pitching in long relief once a week.. What do you think???
Random
October 29th, 2009
2:35 pm
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
2:35 pm
KC
Good post i agree i with you.
And to add JJ’s last 10 starts he pitched 7 or more innings 9 times and had a 1.76 ERA in that stretch only got 5 wins, no run support if this guys get another run in support he is a 20 game winner. He is close to being a Ace, if he has repeat succuss next season he is one in my book.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
2:37 pm
TnBrianHe almost walks as many guys as he K’s
his K/BB is 2.03, which isnt terrible. there have been plenty of pitchers be very successful without extremely high K/BB ratios. glavine is one who never had high numbers there. jurrjens isnt lincecum when it comes to striking guys out, but its not like he is jon garland or something. he strikes out his share of guys.
Random
October 29th, 2009
2:41 pm
TnBrian (October 29th, 2009 2:24 pm): “The only negative about Jurrjens is that he walks way too many guys. He almost walks as many guys as he K’s”
(Boy, is my ego really pumped now!!!)
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
2:44 pm
I just find it very funny that someone actually thinks he isnt close to being a Ace type pitcher. LOL everyone has already listed why he is close to being a Ace its pretty clear cut no if ands or buts about it.
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
2:49 pm
This Vent is so lame:
Chipper played MORE games this year than our catcher who is 12 years younger!
Chipper didn’t have to go on the DL with blurred vision, either.
Gimme a friggin’ break. Thought we WANTED Chipper to play more…
Random
October 29th, 2009
2:53 pm
PWillie (October 29th, 2009 2:27 pm): “What? An entire blog without the mention of the evil Rush Limbaugh?”
Hahahahaha! Think again, PeeWee!
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
3:01 pm
Just wanted to throw some team stats out there
The Braves hit into the 5th most double plays in the majors with 142
13th in majors with 263. Batting Average
29th in majors with only 58 total stolen bases
22nd in majors with 149 homeruns
15th in majors for Fielding Percentage .985 (96 errors)
16th in majors in Stolen bases Allowed with 97.
3rd best in Team ERA in majors with 3.57
22nd in Saves with 38 out of 60 oppurtunity’s ……
1st in least homeruns allowed in majors with 119
6th in Strikeouts for our pitching staff in majors
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
3:06 pm
VaBravesFan 1st in least homeruns allowed in majors with 119
Whoo-hoo!!
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
3:08 pm
16th in majors in Stolen bases Allowed with 97.
HA! So we were even in the Top Half!
Nanny-nanny boo-boo!
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
3:09 pm
WEREN’T even! Doggone it! This second I hit submit…
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
3:13 pm
The saves are what bothers me the most our bullpen blew 22 games ……… thats a huge amount…..
And no speed leads to no stolen bases and alot of double plays, also alot runners being held at 3rd cause the lack of speed.
Errors… if the team played just lil better defensivly it would make a ton of difference…
Improve those problems right there this team can make the playoffs with out a real cleanup hitter.
Daybed Wagmoe
October 29th, 2009
3:14 pm
13th in majors with 263. Batting Average
Wait — we had a “263.” batting average??? That would put us in first place by a large margin — all other teams have a batting average waaaaay below 1.000!!
beekay
October 29th, 2009
3:15 pm
DOB/Glove
What would have been the reaction if the urine splashed on the Koran instead of a painting of Christ? It’s pretty easy to joke on Christians but would he have the guts to bust on Islam??? Something tells me he is too much of a coward to try that joke.
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
3:16 pm
VaBravesFan Improve those problems right there this team can make the playoffs with out a real cleanup hitter.
Nngg…or we could get greedy and improve those things AND get a true cleanup hitter!
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
3:18 pm
McFann
I’m all for that
lol
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
3:19 pm
KC “(or did Greg Maddux not strike out enough hitters to qualify as an ace in your book?).”
Greg Maddux struck out far more batters than you are implying. You could make a case for Maddux as the greatest of all times based on how far above league average and other league leaders he was.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
3:23 pm
Well I think the blog and the poll prove that nobody was wanting the Braves to just give away Jurrjens. Everyone wants at least an MVP caliber bat (not potential but proven bat), under 30 years old, with an affordable 4+ years contract. Nobody has intentionally suggested we buy a rental player for him.
Anyone who has mentioned someone who is on a short contract has done so without actually listing out the contracts and saying why it was good. I take that to mean they were just listing players in theory that are as good or better than Jurrjens.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
3:25 pm
thought this was interesting
the Braves had the 3rd most IBB in baseball only behind the Cardinals and Dodgers with 58 free passes
Chipper was IBB 18 times which ranks 5th most in majors its obvious even if Chipper was so bad this year teams were still scared to pitch to him…..
TnBrian
October 29th, 2009
3:25 pm
I’m finished with the Jurrjens talk because we all know what he is… a very young, good pitcher that will get better.
VABravesFan, they do need more speed in the lineup, but a mid-market team like the Braves don’t have the money for both a power hitter & a speed demon. McLouth is that guy for 2010 as far I can tell, just missing that RH 30 plus HR guy.
Soph
October 29th, 2009
3:26 pm
This Vent is so lame:
Chipper played MORE games this year than our catcher who is 12 years younger!
I’m telling you, they’ll let anyone post a vent these days. That one was just stupid.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
3:29 pm
VaBravesFan And no speed leads to no stolen bases and alot of double plays, also alot runners being held at 3rd cause the lack of speed.
speed has something to do with the SB (obviously) but a little less to do with the GIDP. double plays arent always a bad thing, because they mean there is someone on baseball time the and you strikeout much. the braves’ OBP and K stats would back that up.
who hit into more double plays than the braves? i bet there are at least a couple of very good offensive teams in front of atlanta.
as for the saves, that isnt likely to improve that much. even teams with top notch closers tend to have alot of blown saves. id be happy if the braves could stay under 20.
yes, better defense would help alot….the #1 area the braves need to improve in (my opinion) is slg%. the OBP and BA is very good, slg% isnt. a cleanup hitter would help that alot. it seems like maybe your saying forget a big hitter, lets get a fast guy who can play defense. i disagree with that. give me slg% first please.
RC
October 29th, 2009
3:31 pm
Random trade talk alert! If the other team agreed, which of the following deals would you make if you were Frank Wren (I tried to match up contracts reasonably close, unless the deal is with the Yankees):
1. Lowe for Carlos Lee
2. Lowe for Nick Swisher
3. Vazquez for Derrek Lee
4. Vazquez for Carl Crawford
5. JJ for Ryan Braun
6. JJ for Prince Fielder
7. Kawakami for Juan Rivera
8. Kawakami for Conor Jackson
9. Kelly Johnson for Jeff Francoeur
For what it’s worth my answers would be yes, no, yes, maybe, yes, maybe, yes, yes, kidding.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
3:31 pm
to clarify, of course GIDP is a bad thing, but if your team or a certain player has high GIDP numbers, that doesnt mean they are a bad team or player. pujols grounds into alot of double plays.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
3:35 pm
RC ill play
1. Lowe for Carlos Lee NO
2. Lowe for Nick Swisher YES
3. Vazquez for Derrek Lee YES
4. Vazquez for Carl Crawford NO
5. JJ for Ryan Braun YES
6. JJ for Prince Fielder NO
7. Kawakami for Juan Rivera maybe, add another player
8. Kawakami for Conor Jackson YES
9. Kelly Johnson for Jeff Francoeur ha
danny
October 29th, 2009
3:36 pm
I know the braves need a hitter but there is no chance they trade jj it would be beyond stupid to trade a stud like him when he is only 23 who cares if he is a boras client sign that guy and be done with it you do not trade great talent when you are wanting to win a ws you build off of that (see glavine,smoltz,maddux,avery) nuf said
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
3:36 pm
1. Lowe for Carlos Lee – no
2. Lowe for Nick Swisher – yes
3. Vazquez for Derrek Lee – no
4. Vazquez for Carl Crawford – yes
5. JJ for Ryan Braun – yes
6. JJ for Prince Fielder – If he was already signed to a reasonable 4+ year deal
7. Kawakami for Juan Rivera – no
8. Kawakami for Conor Jackson – no
danny
October 29th, 2009
3:39 pm
never would i trade lowe for nick swisher guy is done,vazquez for crawford hell yeah, no fielder when you got freeman coming ryan braun how bout lowe and kawakami for him
RC
October 29th, 2009
3:41 pm
Interesting to see how different others opinions are from my own. Just out of curiosity, DAP and ugaaccountant, why no to Carlos Lee but yes to Nick Swisher??
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
3:42 pm
DAP
Your right i’m just pointing out that team hit into alot of them. Were a team that doesnt count on the long ball so baserunning smarts and speed are important. Yes we do need that big bopper but i dont think we’ll get a true big bopper, yes will prolly land another 20 hr guy maybe. Just saying if the team’s starting pitching has repeat success (or even better) and we improve in those catigories were a playoff team. just think about it. 5 less blown saves, few more stolen bases, more productive outs, less errors add it up that changes the standing a whole lot.
But for sure we need a Big Real Cleanup Hitter, but were not getting Bay or Holliday
Who is gonna be the big bopper, that warrents a Cleanup man title.
danny
October 29th, 2009
3:43 pm
and to what that guy said earlier the reason chipper played more games than mccann is that for one he had eye problems that he is having surgery and lets not forget he plays a very career shortining position at catcher if anything chipper needs more games i swear that guy comes up with the worst injurys to be out for can anybody say roids
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
3:47 pm
ugaaccountant
1. Lowe for Carlos Lee No unless Astros eat remaining 10 mil on Lee
2. Lowe for Nick Swisher Yes Bargain Contract Swithhitter with power
3. Vazquez for Derrek Lee No D.Lee final year of contract
4. Vazquez for Carl Crawford Yes if we can resign him to long term
5. JJ for Ryan Braun yes cant say no
6. JJ for Prince Fielder no big body long term iffy….
7. Kawakami for Juan Rivera no..
8. Kawakami for Conor Jackson no…
9. Kelly Johnson for Jeff Francoeur lol
danny
October 29th, 2009
3:47 pm
i love the braves but i think and have always thought this team is chipper heavy dont get me wrong he has been a great player but he needs to just leave the game and let some younger guys come up and prove they do it lets not forget they braves have made a point of trading career brave except this guy and if i have to trade someone trade chipper and we should have kept texiera
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
3:47 pm
VaBravesFan–
Me, too!
Soph–
Very stupid. BMac only played 6 fewer games than Chipper did. So if not for the DL stint, BMac woulda played more. And that was such a fluke thing, anyway…not like he pulled a muscle by stepping on the base funny or something.
danny–
Apart from the ‘roids part, I agree with your comment.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
3:48 pm
Lee’s contract is quite expensive. I believe we have better options for far less money in some of the other guys you listed. All the no’s are worth consideration, it’s a good list.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
3:52 pm
Carlos Lee makes 55.5 million over next 3 season’s
Derek Lowe makes 45 million over next 3 season’s
who’s is gonna be responsible for that leftover 10.5 million on Carlos Lee it sure as hell isnt gonna be the braves.
Danny
Stop talking about Trading Chipper and Roids…… its rediculous. Ok let the young kids play who gonna play 3rd base we have no up and coming future 3rd baseman in the system….. I do agree we should have tried harder to keep Tex.
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
3:53 pm
Good quote for those of you citing Jurrjens’ numbers:
If I have a wish when I die, it is that no person can ever know how a baseball player has done over anything less than 4 years or his career, whichever is shorter. I also wish that we didn’t have to weight the years when we do a projection because that causes people to reject a simple average for a player’s career or for the last 3 or 4 years, which is just a [sarcastic] TAD more accurate for projecting player performance than a pitcher’s last 21 innings.
RC
October 29th, 2009
3:53 pm
ugaaccountant,
Fair point about Lee’s contract. I figured since you are offloading the $45 million owed to Lowe it might make sense, but Lee is still making an extra $3.5 a year.
VABraveFan,
Why no to Derrek Lee due to one year left on contract, but ok with Crawford (if signed to extention)? Would your opinion on Derrek Lee change if he was open to signing an extention? Or if it came out that Vazquez is NOT open to an extention? (Vazquez also has only 1 year left on his contract.)
Random
October 29th, 2009
3:56 pm
VaBraveFan (October 29th, 2009 3:13 pm): “The saves are what bothers me the most our bullpen blew 22 games ……… thats a huge amount…..
And no speed leads to no stolen bases and alot of double plays, also alot runners being held at 3rd cause the lack of speed.
Errors… if the team played just lil better defensivly it would make a ton of difference…
Improve those problems right there this team can make the playoffs with out a real cleanup hitter.”
Maybe.
But improvements in all three of those “problem” areas would require seven or eight new players, not just one (a RH clean-up hitter with power).
In other words, easier said than done.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
3:59 pm
No on Carlos Lee. Too much of a stiff, and too high of a contract.
Would you trade Lowe straight up for Todd Helton?
DAP
October 29th, 2009
4:00 pm
RCwhy no to Carlos Lee but yes to Nick Swisher??
for me, because swisher plays better defense, is much younger, much cheaper…WAY cheaper, swisher is a better OBP guy with similar power.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
4:00 pm
RC
Well i’m banking on them resigning LaRoche. I think Vasquez has a very good chance of getting a extension. Also Rochy will command less than D.Lee contract wise.
Crawford will add Speed and Defense which is much needed. 50 stolen bases with 15 homers and a 290+ batting average. That deal should be made if the Braves can come to a new contract aggreement with Crawford prior to the trade.
Random
October 29th, 2009
4:02 pm
VaBraveFan (October 29th, 2009
3:25 pm): “Chipper was IBB 18 times which ranks 5th most in majors its obvious even if Chipper was so bad this year teams were still scared to pitch to him…..”
Or it could mean that, as bad as Jones might have been, McCann was even worse.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
4:02 pm
I would be willing to deal up to two of our starters, if the total return was a strong hitter and maybe a couple of good prospects. I would love to see Medlen or (GASP, did he say that!) Reyes get the 5th spot in the rotation.
Marc in FL
October 29th, 2009
4:05 pm
Laroche will make half as Derek Lee and only be half the player, what a deal!
DAP
October 29th, 2009
4:07 pm
random Or it could mean that, as bad as Jones might have been, McCann was even worse.
except that he wasnt. everyone knows this….not sure what made you post that.
rammerjammer
October 29th, 2009
4:09 pm
I’m guessing Vazquez’ chances of an extension are tied to Lowe’s contract going away. You won’t have one without the other. And even then, I’m not so sure about an extension. Unlike Hudson, Vazquez has had a lot of forgettable seasons. This season was a revelation, but he may have to at least approximate it to merit an extension.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
4:10 pm
Wayne in Utah
Thats does make sense finacially and for the future. After Heyward, Freeman, Minor and a few others our system falls way off talent wise. get a Legit Big Bat and 3 or 4 top tier prospects, might make sense, but one injury to the rotation and were screwed.
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
4:11 pm
Uh oh. Mike Minor left the game after pitching 1 inning and throwing only 16 pitches. Haven’t heard why yet.
RC
October 29th, 2009
4:11 pm
I completely disagree on dealing more than one of our established starting pitchers. The Red Sox from last season should help emphasize the point that you can NEVER have too much starting pitching. Medlen and Reyes are great insurance policies if one of our starting 5 gets injured. But if you start the season relying on one of them, you simply cannot afford any injuries to the other members of your starting rotation. And unfortunately, all 5 guys staying healthy an entire season is a VERY, VERY rare thing these days.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
4:13 pm
Even in Vasquez’s average years, his numbers were ok. One thing we know where getting for sure with Javy, durability with tons of innings and strikeouts. Also he pitched in the AL alot of those year against the DH. He wants to be in Atlanta, and he is important to JJ’s development as well.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
4:15 pm
KC:Congratulations… you’re assertion that Jurrjens “isn’t even close” to being an ace is officially the most absurd thing I can remember hearing on this blog (and that’s saying something).
And you comparing JJ to guys like Tim Linceum, Johan Santana, Josh Johnson, Cliff Lee, and Dan Haren is the most absurd thing I have ever read on this board. Those guys are true strikeout throwing machines…they would be #1 starters on most any team in MLB.
Again, you cannot rely on fielding dependent stats like ERA and WHIP to solely judge a pitcher’s performance. If you look at JJ’s fielding independent ERA it is a full run higher than his actual ERA. If you look at the FIP of the other ACES that you mentioned their FIP ERA is much lower than JJ’s. He isn’t an ace and he likely never will be one unless he starts striking out a lot more hitters and walking a lot less.
FWIW, I think Jair Jurrjens is a wonderful young pitcher and I think he has a bright future ahead of him. But his trade value will likely never be as high as it is right now – and if the team could get a young stud hitter for him they should jump at the chance.
rammerjammer
October 29th, 2009
4:15 pm
“I would love to see…Reyes get the 5th spot in the rotation.” (Wayne)
Wayne, Wayne, Wayne. Say it ain’t so!
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
4:17 pm
I didn’t realize Crawford had only 1 year left on his contract. He would also need to come pre-signed in order to trade Vasquez, because Vasquez does not “feel” like a rental player. I feel we will resign him just after Lowe is traded. All of this should happen by Christmas.
My favorite Lowe trade is actually even more feasible than the ones posted here. Lowe for Mat Gamels, use his salary difference straight up to offer Bay 4 years at 15 million per. If he says no thanks, go a different direction but that’s my favorite realistic scenario.
flange 1
October 29th, 2009
4:20 pm
rammerjammer,
Wayne also wants to have Ryan Freel leading off and playing all 3 OF positions….
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
4:20 pm
ugaaccountant
The Brew Crew would do that trade but they wont take all of that 45 million. Gamel is young and will be in team control like JJ. We would have to eat a good amount.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
4:22 pm
ugaaccountant, i wouldnt call that realistic.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
4:22 pm
Rammerjammer – I’d rather pay 10M per season today and lock Vasquez up, than wait until next year and have to pay him 15M per season. If he performs like this 2 years in a row, the yankees type teams would be all over him as a free agent. I’ve seen enough to be confident he’s at least a #2 starter the next few years. And a #2 starter is easily worth $10 million a season for his mid thirties.
The only reason I’m so willing to part with Lowe for just 1 prospect is because we have so much #1 SP depth. I say we have 4 #1’s with Hudson, plus a good mid rotation guy in Kawakami, and 2 projected mid rotation guys in Medlen and Minor. Lowe is worth 10-12 million comfortably, but he just happens to be on a team that really doesn’t need him.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
4:24 pm
Is it that the brewers can’t afford Lowe’s contract or getting Gamels?
Gamels is no longer an A+ prospect. He’s now like a B+ prospect. I only use him because he’s a 3rd baseman I know the name of and plays for a pitching weak team.
Moby Grape
October 29th, 2009
4:29 pm
but I stopped smoking the Chipper lettuce and believing he was 1999 Chipper a long time ago, why haven’t some of you? —P-Town
maybe because we are smart enough to know that 2006-2008 he had the highest BA, second highest OBP and third highest S% in baseball for those 3 years.. Not too shabby and it wasn’t really all that long ago now was it?
Sure he had a bad 2009 and is getting old, but why all the nastiness? Happened to Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron too dude. And to Eddie Matthews at an even younger age.
He’s made financial compromises cause he wants to retire a brave so talking about trading him is pretty foolish. Ungrateful wretch!
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
4:34 pm
ugaaccountant
no your right, Brewers are a team to look at. They would do that swap, but there not just gonna take that 45 million without us paying some of it. Gamel i like him he plays 3rd and 2nd, if Chipper or Prado goes down you gotta guy with some potentail power to fill in. But no team will just take his whole contract. only exceptions are the Yankees,Mets,Redsox the money is not a problem teams… lol If that was the case you think the Blue Jays would have giving away Vernon Wells for a bag of balls, but they cant cause of that loaded contract.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
4:35 pm
And Minor’s changeup is rated as the fourth-best “secondary pitch” from players drafted this yea (DOB)
too bad his fastball is rated as the 44th best primary pitch, huh?
Bisher was right y’know. The Braves system is sinking fast.!!!
glug glug glug
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
4:36 pm
Moby Grape
I agree totally
Add Chipper’s numbers up for the past 4 years and see the crowd of players around him, you will be surprised by is OPS. OBP. AVG.
DAP
October 29th, 2009
4:38 pm
ugaaccountant,
i dont think the brewers would want lowe’s contract.
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
4:38 pm
Not only did I pick the Phillies to win the WS, I put $100 on them to win it. At +170 odds, that’s a great bet, and I’ve never bet on a baseball game in my entire life.
The Phillies are a great team. Very solid. Their hitting is better than the Yankees top to bottom. They can score almost at will. Their plate discipline is ridiculous, especially late in the game. And, they’re playing the damn Yankees, who I will never root for.
I can’t believe only 2 ESPN guys picked the Phils to win the Series.
Go Phils (hopefully that’s the last time I have to ever say that).
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
4:39 pm
DAP except that he wasnt. everyone knows this….not sure what made you post that.
He was probably trying to get to me.
But it won’t do him any good. So pitchers would rather pitch to BMac, that doesn’t prove anything. You’ve seen the way these managers treat him in the All-Star Game–like he’s not that big of a deal. Besides, a lot of the times when the loyal opposition iBB’d Chipper to get to BMac it came back to haunt them.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
4:41 pm
We know ERA does not mean everything in the judgement of a pitcher,but it still is the best judge for a starter. (CB)
nah, can’t agree with that one.
ncscoots
October 29th, 2009
4:42 pm
Go Phils (hopefully that’s the last time I have to ever say that).
Bad news, B.C.: rumor is that the Braves trade Prado to the Phils to back up Utley as their utility guy, LOL.
RC
October 29th, 2009
4:43 pm
ugaaccountant and VaBraveFan,
I think it’s a pretty big stretch to say that Gamel “plays” 2nd or 3rd. He is currently listed as a 3b for Milwaukee, and got a little time there this past season, but every scout who has seen Gamel says that he is brutal with the glove at 3b(like, Ryan Braun bad) and thinks he will have to move to either 1b or an OF corner sooner rather than later. He’s also a left-handed bat, which means the future of your team is VERY left-hand heavy. McCann, Heyward, Freeman, Schafer, and Gamel are all left-handed hitters, vs. only Escobar and Prado as right-handed hitters (referring only to relatively young players here, excluding McLouth, Chipper, Diaz, and the possible addition of Bay).
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
4:44 pm
DOB,
Do you think Jurrjens would accept a “hometown discount?”
I know who his agent is, but if Jurrjens wants to stay, I’d be willing to bet he’d take less than what Boras could get him. He and his dad grew up huge Braves fans. I’d think that would account for something. I’m just saying, I don’t think it’s set in stone he’s leaving as a FA at the end of his arb years because of his emotional ties to the team.
You asked, “Would you ever trade Jurrjens?” My response is, No, Never, because of that reasoning. What do you think??
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
4:44 pm
McFann
Your right about that…. McCann was better than Chippper all year. But the pitchers fear Chipper. Chipper is one of the top five smartest hitters in baseball. Just because he isnt a slugger doesnt mean he isnt dangerous. Chipper will have a great season, he might only hit 15 homers but look for lots of singles and walks and a high AVG and OBP. He needs to hit like he did in 08, dont worry about the power just rack up those hits.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
4:45 pm
flange1
Now you know Freel couldn’t handle all the outfield…..you would need at least ONE more guy out there for sure…
Random
October 29th, 2009
4:45 pm
DAP (October 29th, 2009 4:07 pm): ” ‘Or it could mean that, as bad as Jones might have been, McCann was even worse.’
“except that he wasnt. everyone knows this….not sure what made you post that.”
To lead right into this (thanks for biting, btw — I figgered it’s be the Fann):
Or it could mean that, as bad as Jones might have been, McCann was even worse. At least as perceived by opposing pitchers/managers. They apparently still considered Jones to be a more dangerous hitter than McCann, despite the statistical evidence of Aug ff.
And that (both their perceptions and their analysis) imo had much more to do with Cox keeping Jones in the 3-hole than any ludicrous charges of stupidity, senility, nepotism or favoritism on the part of Cox.
Jones was still considered by Braves opponents to be a more dangerous hitter than McCann. What do you think they’d'a thought if Cox moved Jones to the bottom of the order? The jig would have been up.
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
4:45 pm
scoots,
Not funny man!! They can have Kelly since he’s supposed to be the next coming of Utely and all. Utely can teach him his tricks….
Steve from OH
October 29th, 2009
4:48 pm
We know ERA does not mean everything in the judgement of a pitcher,but it still is the best judge for a starter.
Eh, I don’t know. I’d want to look deeper than just that. Pretty low correlation year-to-year…
RC
October 29th, 2009
4:49 pm
“Do you think Jurrjens would accept a “hometown discount?”
I know who his agent is, but if Jurrjens wants to stay, I’d be willing to bet he’d take less than what Boras could get him.” – Bobby’s Cox
I agree that Jurrjens would likely be willing to take less to stay with the Braves than what Boras could get him on the open market. There are two important follow up questions that I don’t know the answer to though.
1. How much less if JJ willing to take to stay with the Braves?
and
2. Would the Braves be willing to even pay that much to keep JJ?
Because unless he completely loses his edge by then (Boras I mean), Boras will get JJ MUCH, MUCH more than anyone else thought he’d be able to get.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
4:49 pm
scoots
If the Braves deal Prado, then we get to keep “you know who!”
ncscoots
October 29th, 2009
4:49 pm
B.C., LOL, brother.
‘Course, there are people out there now who don’t know the back-story who are furiously typing a response to tell me how stupid it would be to make the trade. Ah, well…
nolie
October 29th, 2009
4:51 pm
29th in majors with only 58 total stolen bases (VaBF)
they had 66 stolen bases a couple of years ago and outscored the Mets who had 200. SB have a pretty low correlation to runs scored.
rammerjammer
October 29th, 2009
4:51 pm
ugaaccountant,
Vazquez’ inconsistent history troubles me. This season was off the charts, though all acknowledge the raw materials were always there. It’s a gamble either way, because you’re right that a repeat performance in 2010 means he’s unafforable. Tough call for Frank.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
4:51 pm
With Hicks tearing it up in AZ, that means we can deal Escobar for a bucket of balls.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
4:53 pm
What would we get for Prado? It would have to be alot to hand the Phillies yet another offensive weapon.
ncscoots
October 29th, 2009
4:54 pm
SB have a pretty low correlation to runs scored.
Bloggers feel that NEED for SPEED, nolie, LOL. It’s exciting! It unnerves pitchers! It wreaks havoc! and like that!
I’m having a Carl Crawford attack, I think. Wayne’s mention of Ryan Freel probably brought it on.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
4:54 pm
I believe ERA is the best judge for a starting pitcher. Mainly depending on how many Innings he pitched. But if u pitch 200+ innings and have a ERA below 3.00 your pretty damn good.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
4:56 pm
Vazquez for Carl Crawford
NO
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
4:57 pm
rammerjammer – I don’t have the numbers in front of me to lay it all out, but Vasquez was always a guy who’s numbers indicated he’d be better in a ballpark like Atlanta and in the national league. And when he came here he was better from day 1 until day 162.
He also had been generally unlucky with a higher than average batting average for balls in play, and strand rates. Wheras Jair Jurrjens has been luckier than average so far in general. I don’t have exact stats for either, but Vasquez seems to be at least good, even if he’s not as great as he was this year. And he was great, better than Jurrjens imo.
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
4:57 pm
VaBravesFan–
Yeah…but that’s OK. If they keep thinking they cann get away with pitching to BMac, that’ll just mean more doubles, no?
Random thanks for biting, btw — I figgered it’d be the Fann
The Fann bit…but not more than she could chew.
Jones was still considered by Braves opponents to be a more dangerous hitter than McCann.
That’s obvious…and I’m not gonna say that BMac is more dangerous than Chipper because, let’s face it, Chipper’s a much more accomplished hitter–been around longer. But I do find it a little odd that BMac wasn’t walked more when he had someone other than Escobar batting behind him…
(Course, if they cann walk a 6-time All-Star to get to a 4-time All-Star, why can’t they walk a 4-time All-Star to get to Escobar?)
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
4:58 pm
scoots,
You called it, here come the trade talks. This should be on MLB Trade Rumors in about 20 min.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
4:58 pm
nolie
How about Freel…..he’s a Carl Crawford-lite!
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
4:59 pm
Moby-
I don’t disagree w/ your statement, but ppl are still talking about him like he’s the end all be all and not only that, the reason he irks me so much is that he isn’t worth what he’s being paid and yet he’s going to take it instead of deferring it so that we can build a better team around them.
VA-
“This team can win without a true cleanup hitter.
Need more speed on basepaths.
Play better Defense.
Less Blown Saves”
#1- I’m not certain we can
#2- Doesn’t matter, we won’t run
#3- Is attainable, but not w/ Chipper aging at a rapid pace and Diaz albeit better this past year in one of the OF slots. Also depends on who we get for other OF corner position. Up the middle should be better though considering we finally have a solid core of BMac, Yunel, and Martin.
#4- Also won’t be too much different no matter who we have
#2 and #4 are solely on the basis that Bobby doesn’t call for hit and run’s or bases to be stolen and because he has never over the course of his career learned how to properly use a bullpen when he has to.
My 5 “current” Braves untouchable list: (Heyward doesn’t count)
-Hanson
-BMac
-Yunel
-Prado
-Medlen
Who’s in your five?
Steve from OH
October 29th, 2009
4:59 pm
But if u pitch 200+ innings and have a ERA below 3.00 your pretty damn good.
Maybe as the end result for that season in question, but in regards to predicting future performance, not really…and besides, there are way more important things than ERA to look at.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
5:00 pm
nolie
I’m just saying it would be nice to have a legit basestealing threat. It throws pitchers off and can change a game by alot. We prolly have no one that will steal 20 bases next year on the team. McLouth can but he has had some injury problems and that part of his game might decline. And its not just about stealing bases its about better baserunning singles into douibles and double into triples, roundtine grounder turned into infield hits those small things go along way.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:00 pm
I have no idea how Hicks gets such a good rep and am curious what the collective wisdom is here. His full seasons worth of numbers in the minors did not support him getting a call to the AFL. Now not only is he there, he’s doing well and is near the top of their lineup. Is there some major batting tools he has that I’m not seeing, since I never see him in person?
ncscoots
October 29th, 2009
5:00 pm
This should be on MLB Trade Rumors in about 20 min.
Shoot, I might send it to ‘em myself; my evil angel is working out today.
CB
October 29th, 2009
5:00 pm
It is ok for those who disagree about ERA being the best test of a starting pitcher, I still know I am right. See,I can be just as narrow minded in my thoughts as some of our stat heads.
( This last post was dedicated to Random)
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
5:01 pm
With Hicks tearing it up in AZ, that means we can deal Escobar for a bucket of balls.
We could, but we’d be in deep doo doo!
nolie
October 29th, 2009
5:01 pm
My favorite Lowe trade is actually even more feasible than the ones posted here. Lowe for Mat Gamels, (Uga Acc)
I don’t think that is all that feasible, I find it hard to believe that the Brewers would take on his salary, and I’m pretty sure the Braves aren’t gonna eat much if any of it.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:02 pm
I can see it now, from reporter scoots (who, what?) LoL
Thats as good a source as any!
RC
October 29th, 2009
5:03 pm
“How about Freel…..he’s a Carl Crawford-lite!” -Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
More like Carl Crawford Zero
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:03 pm
Top 5 untouchable Braves:
Chipper is 10/5 so irrelevant to the discussion
1. Hanson
2. Heyward
3. McCann
4. Yuniel Bethancourt
5. Yunel Escobar
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:03 pm
ERA is a fairly good indicator of how well a pitcher has pitched, but there are some excellent starting pitchers who have ERA’s that are a bit higher. You have to look at his entire body of work, to be honest.
I would love to have a closer with a 3.50 ERA, who closes out 95% of his chances. And a starter with a 4.25 ERA and a 18-10 record, is a good thing. (unless of course, he should have been 20-8)
It’s hard to say. Good pitching is kinda like pornography. I can’t define it, but I can tell you what it is when I see it.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
5:04 pm
Ryan Freel is a injury prone utility guy with speed.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
5:06 pm
Top 5 untouchable
Hanson
Heyward
JJ
Escobar
McCann
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:06 pm
RC: Come on now, your gonna hurt my tender feelings.
ugaaccountant: Do you mean Christian Bethancourt, our low minors catcher?
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:06 pm
I don’t get why Lowe is so overpriced that nobody would take him for esentially free. Forget Gamels just Lowe for nobody. I don’t believe that nobody would sign him as a free agent for 3 years at 45 million. I feel we’ll find out because if Wren is able to trade him.
Daslied
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
P-Town Brave – why on Earth would Chipper have to defer money to help the team? (Again, I mean.) How many guys actually do that?
Bottom line – Chipper has gotten way less money over his career than a player of his stature deserved. Back up the Brinks truck for him, I say.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
Guys,
Did you read my post, only current Braves count so Heyward is irrelevant as well as UGA being smart in saying Chipper is.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
VaBravesFan
And “the world’s most interesting baseball player!”
He once ran through a left field wall….to see what was on the other side.
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
Thank you J.A. Adande…..
He’s the only person I heard on ESPN the last few days that gets it….”The Phillies are going to score runs.”
It’s almost impossible to keep that team from scoring 5 runs a game. That’s the biggest hurdle for the Yanks, and their pitching & bullpen won’t keep the Phils from doing so.
Rollins says Phils in 5. I’m thinking he’s right on.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
Yeah that’s him. I was using him to represent any of our lower minor league guys that simply should not be traded. As a franchise we have to hold onto our homegrown players.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
Daslied-
Sorry, Mike Hampton already took off with that last year
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:09 pm
Daslied
Most true Braves fans are not begrudging Chipper his latest contract!
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:12 pm
Rumor is that Mike Hampton hired a team of 10 others, and conceived an elaborate scheme to rip the Braves off for all those millions. Their calling it “Hampton’s Eleven”.
Nobody held a gun to Schuerholz or Wren’s head when they traded for and signed Hampton and Lowe.
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
5:12 pm
ugaaccountant -
First of all, don’t put much stock into AFL numbers, especially for hitters. Not as many elite pitchers go to the AFL as elite hitters.
Secondly, a lot of his prospect stature (which largely evaporated this year) is based on what he does defensively. He also takes his walks and hits for power, but he’s got serious contact issues and won’t ever hit for a high average. The contact issues may be too much to overcome since he’s already 24, but he’s still got a lot of tools to be excited about. I don’t know. I’m skeptical, but I think there’s at least a slim chance he becomes an above-average MLB SS or 3B with both the bat and the glove.
But the Braves know what they’re doing. They wouldn’t send him to the AFL if their scouts didn’t think he’s capable of making it to MLB, which is much more important than the numbers. And he’s still very much a prospect.
Random
October 29th, 2009
5:13 pm
CB (October 29th, 2009 5:00 pm): “It is ok for those who disagree about ERA being the best test of a starting pitcher, I still know I am right. See,I can be just as narrow minded in my thoughts as some of our stat heads. ( This last post was dedicated to Random)”
Don’t leave me hangin’, dude — which one am I?
One of the diagreers? A starting pitcher? One of the narrow-minded? A stat head?
Or am I you?
Or one of your thoughts?!?
(Ooooooo — spoooooky.)
nolie
October 29th, 2009
5:14 pm
It throws pitchers off and can change a game by alot. (VaBF)
sorry I just don’t agree lotsa times a stolen base gets left hanging, and of course a caught stealing eliminates any chance of that runner scoring.
. It’s nice to have speed, but stolen bases just aren’t that important or how would we have outscored the Mets who had three times as many? Speeds help with extra base hits and defense is more important.
I like Crawford all right and if he had a long term contract I wouldn’t have said no.
Scoots is right, it’s exciting, and on an individual game basis it can be an important part of a win, but overall it’s not that pertinent.
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
5:16 pm
Tebow needs to change his first name if he wants an NFL career. Who every heard of any decent athlete named Timmy?
They post this vent, but I’ve had pure gold never make it through. I’m starting to think willieg or YAACA is in charge of approving vents
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
5:16 pm
Too bad Hampton ripped other teams for millions. Most of the Braves dollars were insured, while other teams were paying his contract anyway.
I don’t get the Hampton criticism here. He signed for less with Houston than he could’ve with us. He wasn’t all about the money. I feel bad for the guy. He’s had to work so hard to rehabilitate. His body just sucks.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:16 pm
Thanks P.W.H. – I’d be happy with him if he contributes at all in the majors so this is better than nothing obviously. If he is a good glove, that could be a useful 25th man for 2011.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:17 pm
PW Hjort
Years ago, a SS who could pick ‘em and hit his weight, was worth quite a bit. Hicks may eventually play a role on our team. Would love to see him get some good tutoring on hitting…..is Chipper’s dad available?
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:18 pm
Wayne-
Hampton’s Eleven…funniest thing I’ve heard all day.
He probably got his ideas from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get-rich-quick_scheme
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
5:19 pm
nolie,
I’m feeling a need for speed too. Just this week I switched from Mitchum to Speed Stick.
After seeing all the stolen bases in the post season like we see every year, I think to myself, I’ve got a need for speed.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:19 pm
BC’s
Hampton is/was a gamer. Just an unlucky son of a gun.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
5:20 pm
Is there some major batting tools he has that I’m not seeing, since I never see him in person? (Uga Acc)
no, in fact he has been old for his level and still hit .230.
He is a plus defender with a plus arm and he does possess a good bit of power. The Braves are likely giving him a chance to step up and impress them. They are weak in the infield and lost Campbell so it would be great if he can improve.I’m sure they would like to find a Chipper replacement sometime soon.
He’s got enough assets to continue to bring him along, but I am not optimistic that he will ever be more than say a Betemit, if that.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:20 pm
Bobby’s Cox-
Ok Maverick!
O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
5:21 pm
I dislike the Phillies, but I dislike the Yankees even more. Go Phills!
One good thing if the Phillies win the World Series is it will reinforce to Fank Wren just how far the Braves need to go (offensively) to overtake the Phills next year.
And with Hudson close to signing, my guess is Wren will try to trade Lowe first. If he can trade Lowe, then I think he offers Vazquez an extension. If he is unable to trade Lowe, I think Vazquez will be traded.
I can’t wait for the world series to be over so we can get the ball rolling.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
5:23 pm
nolie
Your correct about the overall outcome, but the reason i’m talking about it cause the Braves have none of that……..
Schafer and Heyward are gonna fix that but there not here and playing yet.
We got 5 guys already that will prolly hit 20 homers each. Chipper,McCann,McLouth,Escobar,LaRoche (if resigned)
Do the other things better this team has enough offense to contend. Baserunning, Defense, Productive outs, Closing out Games. As i mentioned we blew 22 gms last year. The reason i saying all of this cause the Braves wont be able to bring in a 35 homer 100+ rbi guy, without giving up Javy, Young Talent, All remaining Payroll.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
5:24 pm
But the Braves know what they’re doing. They wouldn’t send him to the AFL if their scouts didn’t think he’s capable of making it to MLB, (PWH)
or it’s an indication of just how weak the system is in higher level position players ?
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:26 pm
If Hicks can transform himself into a 240 hitter with 20+ HR potential, and can keep the K’s below 125 per season, he will probably play some major league SS somewhere. Lot of if’s there though….
But dang it, he’s our prospect, so we can always hope!
Can he run through walls?
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
5:28 pm
The thing about the SB is that it distracts pitchers. If you watched the 8th & 9th innings of the WS last night, obviously the SB threat helped the Phillies hitters at the plate. You don’t have to swipe a bag, but if you could get your hitters in favorable counts, seeing extra fastballs, etc…more power to you. You wanna see this Braves feeble offense score a few extra runs a game, put some speed in the lineup. We thought this team was filled with 20+ HR guys. Turns out, it wasn’t filled with any of them. You inject some speed, I guarantee you that increases the power numbers as well.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
5:29 pm
Can he run through walls? (Wayne)
nope, but he can leap over tall buildings in a single bound
CB
October 29th, 2009
5:30 pm
Random,you know you and I are the only ones on here who are always right. We allow these other guys to post for our amusement.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:34 pm
Wayne-
So basically what you’re saying is that he’s a carbon copy of Khalil Greene?
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
5:35 pm
Bobby’s Cox
Thank you bout time someone agrees with me somewhat about the importance of speed.
Big difference between a slow hitter’s basehit and a fast players base hit. Bobble or mishandle the grounder he will be safe. Outfielder lolly gags to the ball or bobbles it on a regular single to the outfield basehit. Gapper could be a triple instead of just a routine double. Speedy Baserunner makes the pitcher not have full concetration on the batter, leading pitchers to throw more fastballs cause of the threat to steal a base. Speed helps stay out of double plays, and goiong from 1st to home on a gapper. We dont have anyone with that kind of speed.
Efrim
October 29th, 2009
5:35 pm
or it’s an indication of just how weak the system is in higher level position players ?
bingo
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
5:36 pm
*****Outfielder lolly gags to the ball or bobbles it on a regular single to the outfield turns into a runner on second.*********
MZ
October 29th, 2009
5:41 pm
DOB —
Not sure if you heard, but debut release from Them Crooked Vultures (Homme, John Paul Jones, Grohl) drops Nov. 17 … youtube “New Fang” if you haven’t heard it yet … it’s the first single
cvbraves
October 29th, 2009
5:43 pm
Haven’t seen it mentioned on the blog….but Freeman’s got his average up to .290 in the AFL. Still a bit to go (Hicks being at .323), but he’s improving.
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
5:44 pm
Does anyone know why Mike Minor left after just 1 inning?
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
5:47 pm
cvbraves -
Freeman’s got his average up to .290 in the AFL. Still a bit to go (Hicks being at .323), but he’s improving.
Meaningless small sample size.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
5:48 pm
When I read the title of the new blog I could, almost without fail, recite the names of the people who who would even entertain the thought of trading JJ. Sure enough I was right. I guess we’re all predictable to some degree or another.
Thankfully most GM’s in the league relish keeping their jobs and so have enough common sense not to trade a young, cheap starter who is already among the games’s elite pitchers and on an upward trajectory. If not striking out more people is the chief indictment against him then so be it.
The only reason why he is not a candidate for Cy Young is lack of run support. To trade JJ would be to trade Adam Wainwright…again…this time after you knew he was going to be an excellent starter!
Unless they give him a No Trade clause, the best trade bait will be Tim Hudson after they sign him. Tim Hudson at 3-4 years around $9 million would deliver a nice return and an even better package than Vasquez. Hudson likely would net the Braves a nice 3-1 deal with all at least two of those players plugging existing holes. In other words, Hudson likely returns more than just the ever elusive, “One Big Bat”, which has become this blog’s White Rabbit.
I believe the Braves are more than OBB away. They need more power, they need more speed, and if they could add a bit of grit, that would very much help as well.By grit, I’m talking someone like a Lemke, or a TP, or others who would not let the team waste so many effective starts from their pitching staff.
They need more depth in the pen given the obvious and ugly overuse of several relievers we saw this season. I think it appears that Prado is likely to be the starter at 2nd, but it still remains to be seen if he is a full-timer or a heck of a part-timer?
I think the question of how to improve the Braves goes much further than trading Javy for the OBB . That may be an easy answer to a question that is more complex.
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
5:50 pm
VaBraveFan,
The blog and the modern baseball fan will never agree. It’s been a huge debate here. The reasoning is that the SB is a potential out, a potential less chance at a 2 or 3 run homer or extra base hit. I will always disagree & will argue the threat of a SB leads to bigger rallies.
I’m old school if you will. I like playing the game by taking extra bags, and I like the watch baseball played this way too. Not only does it make the game more exciting, but it is effective or else teams would not do it in the postseason where it matters most, or in the recent, usually entertaining all-star games which now matter. They can throw all the stats they want about probabilities of scoring with runner on 1st 0 out, runner on 2nd 1 out etc…, but I still think running & moving runners over is an effective strategy.
It’s interesting to note that some managers like Charlie Manuel don’t like bunting, & never do and are effective. But, he’s definitely ok with stealing & staying out of double plays. Personally, I like and miss the execution of the hit and run. It’s one part of the game that hasn’t come back yet, but I think it will. You’re just now starting to see more emphasis on SB’s and bunting again in the game. Slower teams like the Braves should hit and run. I usually advocate that throughout the year when we get too station-to-station, especially with hitters like Prado & Escobar who can hit the ball on the ground to either side of the infield with relatively ease.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:52 pm
Kirkinga – there is alledgedly a rule against trading someone immediately after they sign as a free agent. I wonder though if Hudson could be traded though as he’d be signing an extension right? He’s still ours until 3 days after the World Series possibly?
Regardless, that would be a very dirty way of treating a player and it’s better in the long run not to treat people that way. Players would remember that for a long time.
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
5:53 pm
have enough common sense not to trade a young, cheap starter who is already among the games’s elite pitchers and on an upward trajectory.
There’s not a single piece of empirical evidence that he’s anything of the things you mentioned other than young and cheap. And again, if the right deal is there, you make it. No matter who it entails.
Unless they give him a No Trade clause, the best trade bait will be Tim Hudson after they sign him
Sigh.
TIMHUDSONISA10AND5ANDCAN’TBETRADEDWITHOUTHISPERMISSIONWHICHHELIKELYWON’TGIVE
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
5:55 pm
DOB, do you think Jurrjens would accept a “hometown discount?” — Bobby’s Cox.
I don’t know, is Curacao supposed to have a team before he’s a free agent?
(smile)
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:56 pm
I really believe that some of the players we currently have could steal more bases…they just don’t because of Bobby Cox ball.
If Diaz can steal bases, I don’t see any reason to believe that Prado, Escobar, and even Chipper couldn’t steal a handful.
Station-to-Station is typical Bobby ball…so like I said earlier, it doesn’t really matter who we get or have, if Bobby doesn’t wanna play hit and run with line drive and opposite field hitters or steal bases when the situations warrant it, then does it really matter who is on first?
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:57 pm
The real question is, does anyone believe Boras would let that happen?
Rob from SC
October 29th, 2009
5:58 pm
I said this at mid season. THe Braves will find a taker for Derek Lowe. He is not horrible, we just have 5 better pitchers than him. Some team will want him
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
5:58 pm
Rob from SC: McCutchen is on the cover of Baseball America.
Anthony, the Braves are high on Medlen (I say that, and he’ll probably be traded tomorrow … just kidding). They like him in the swing role right now, being able to make spot starts and middle relief. But he could easily move into a starter role if they have an injury.
GTSteve
October 29th, 2009
5:59 pm
I would have to think about trading JJ for Utley, now I know the Phillies aren’t going to do that, I am just saying
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
6:00 pm
Out-of-the-blue thought here, but since Charlie Manuel’s gonna get a second chance at this All-Star Game managing gig, I really wish the thing was gonna be in Atlanta. Then we could vote BMac the starter and see if Manuel leaves him in for 8 innings for being the “Hometown Kid”.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
6:00 pm
Bobby’s Cox
I’m the same way. And the current Braves team lack power and speed. Playing ABC baseball is the way to go. Too many time’s have i seen Chipper or LaRoche stranded on deck cause of a double play. Prado, Diaz, Escobar can handle a bat and should be asked to bunt more often when the time calls. I rather have a chance to have a AB with a runner at 2nd, than choosing to swing away everytime with a runner on first.
dogsbrekky
October 29th, 2009
6:01 pm
JJ for Ryan Braun, yes I would do it
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
6:04 pm
McFann
That is messed up, McCann is Clearly the best Catcher in the NL, Molina is better on defense but the bat is no comparison….. Thats ok McFann Mac will just keep adding to the achievments under the radar. We know he is good and thats all that matters
Rob from SC
October 29th, 2009
6:05 pm
DOB
This blog is showing up on FOX.com with the headline suggesting the Braves will trade Jurrjens
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
6:07 pm
DOB,
Very funny. I still think JJ would instruct Boras to work something out with Wren for less than what he could get from another team if it came to that, assuming the Braves don’t totally suck in 3 years.
mr baseball
October 29th, 2009
6:09 pm
Why do people keep floating possible Derek Lowe trades? Other than the Braves & Mets, no teams seemed all that interested in signing him last year as a free agent. Since then, his market value has dropped a bit, but his contract remains higher than any team (other than the Braves) was willing to take on.
To my knowledge, the Braves have never made a deal in which they ate a sizeable portion of the contract of a player they were trading, which almost certainly would be required in any deal regarding Lowe. Given the current economics, why would they start now?
The Braves have a limited budget with which to improve themselves for next season. The approximately $30 million required to re-sign Hudson would be better used to add a big bat. But if he does return here, it wouldn’t be surprising to see Vazquez dealt for a big bat with an expiring contract.
Vazquez is the most marketable asset the Braves have (and are willing to consider parting with), particularly taking into account that he has only 1 year left on his contract and is reaching the age where long term deals are problematic.
Personally, I’d take him over Hudson if it came down to it, but it’s hard to imagine the Braves keeping both. They could always try to trade Kawakami, but he probably wouldn’t bring that much in return and the team would take a PR hit for dealing him.
Then again, the report about Hudson’s imminent signing might be a bit premature.
Just like last year’s acquisitions of Peavy and Burnett and Griffey and Furcal.
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
6:13 pm
MZ, I’m eager to hear what that sounds like. By the way, went to office today, got the replacement CD. Thanks much.
Next step, figuring out what I can play it on. (you put a bunch of MP3s on a CD, right?)
Braves Paisan
October 29th, 2009
6:15 pm
I have to say, Ryan Braun for JJ would be tough to turn down.
CB
October 29th, 2009
6:16 pm
DOB,AJC doesn’t allow you to use smileys? Are you afraid it takes away from your masculinity? Give us the truth,man.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
6:17 pm
No to JJ for Ryan Braun. The Brewers have common sense. But even if they didn’t, you don’t do a 1-1 trade for an elite starting pitcher which there’s every indication JJ is now or will become. When is the last time you saw such a trade? Does any come quickly to mind? I bet there aren’t many examples of 1-1 with young cheap elite starters.
Maybe if it was for King Albert, maybe. But I wouldn’t trade JJ for even A-Rod straight up.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
6:17 pm
Roger Craig’s SF Giants teams of the 1980’s (I lived in the Bay Area for 15 years) was not an overly fast team, but they utilized team speed to force the other team into errors. If there was any doubt, they took the extra base, made the other team make the big play to get them out. It worked well for a few years during the Will Clark, Matt Williams, Kevin Mitcell era.
kirk
Nobody is talking about dealing Jurrjens, unless the opportunity presented itself to get a hard hitting righthanded bat, who was equally young and affordable for a similar amount of time.
Somebody mentioned the Steve Avery example. You never know when a young pitcher is going to blow out his arm. Hopefully he never does, but many go through a 1-2 year period of time when they are fairly useless. Some NEVER recover.
That doesn’t mean you trade all your young pitchers before they get hurt, it just means you listen to any and all interesting offers.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
6:20 pm
Mr. Baseball – The Braves and Mets weren’t the only team interested in Lowe, we just wanted him the most. This year there is 1 less year left on Lowe’s contract, so that’s good. This year there is only 1 free agent pitcher better than Lowe, making him possibly the 2nd best available pitcher.
I have a feeling, based on it happening every single year, that at least two teams will need a proven veteran pitcher even if it requires big money to get him. We may get a better offer for Vasquez or Kawakami and go that direction, but we will get some kind of offer for Lowe. Wren will talk with all the other teams and many, many ideas will be thrown around that you and I will never be privy too.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
6:20 pm
Nobody wants AROD and that 29.1 million (TWENTY NINE MILLION) a season deal. And his Milestones bonuses where he;ll recieve and extra 10 million and crap when he breaks the all time homerun record…. he is so overrated contract wise.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
6:21 pm
So kirk, you wouldn’t deal JJ straight up for Ryan Braun??? I am glad you are not the GM.
Like you said, this deal probably never happens, but I would do it so fast, it would make you dizzy trying to keep up….
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
6:22 pm
Kirkinga – Braun is a significantly better trade idea than Arod. Look at their stats this year, their ages, and especially their contracts.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
6:22 pm
gotta run…….later.
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
6:24 pm
Mr. Baseball,
I disagree. The market for Lowe last year wasn’t a good market. You had a much larger FA pool last year that diminished a guy like Lowe. That there are no FA starting pitchers this year may make a team pick up all of Lowe’s contract because where else can teams find starting pitching help? There are few teams in baseball that have excess starting pitching and are willing to unload it. Besides Lackey, Lowe could be the other hot item this winter.
And, I also disagree that Lowe’s value was lowered after this season. Braveheart and DOB posted here about the year Lowe had. He actually had more quality starts than Vazquez or something like that this year. It’s just his 6-8 bad starts were worse & they inflated his ERA, etc… Lowe was a little hittable this year than most, but he can still be marketed as a dependable starter who pitches great in big games. Like Boras does all the time, Wren can highlight Lowe’s strengths and milk his value. I think there will be a taker for Lowe, salary & all because of the soft market this year for FA pitchers.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
6:25 pm
If AROD makes 29.1 million a year Pujols a better player than him and Pujols only makes around 16 mil a year…….. Pujols will commmand around 30+ million a year easily.
Braves Paisan
October 29th, 2009
6:25 pm
I am jazzed about this Braves outfield: Braun, McLouth, and Heyward. Youth, power, and speed.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
6:27 pm
PJ Does anyone know why Mike Minor left after just 1 inning?
No worries. The game was postponed due to weather.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
6:31 pm
How long is this “weather” injury? Is it career threatening? Should we begin shopping now for a new #4 starter for 2012?
CJ
October 29th, 2009
6:31 pm
DOB, resolve the debate. Is Jair Jurrjens an ace with Cy Young ability. Or is he merely a very good young pitcher with decent (but not great) peripherals who is signed cheaply for the next four years.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
6:32 pm
Well gee folks, if you are keen to imagine circummstances that could arise that would cause the Braves to trade JJ, then you would agree that the same rationale would apply to Hanson as well, no?
And NO, I would not do a 1-1 JJ for Braun, I would only do it it if there was another useful piece included by the Brewers. Young, cheap, elite-near elite starters are the rarest commodities in baseball, not young, elite LF’s.. Therefore you get another piece.
The same would apply for Carl Crawford as well, who likely will be available this offseason.
I see no one has answered my question. Name me a trade where a team traded a known young and cheap very good starter straight up in a 1-1 deal.
So Tommy Hanson for Ryan Bruan is doable then?
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
6:33 pm
uh..I meant..circumstances….
CJ
October 29th, 2009
6:36 pm
Kirk, No, Tommy Hanson IS a future ace. You don’t trade him for anyone – including Ryan Braun. But the Braves would be completely mad and out of their minds not to trade JJ for Braun.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
6:37 pm
Again, I can say that I do not think the Braves trade JJ at all. But, to sit here and say that you won’t trade him for some of the best young hitters in baseball is nuts. He is good, but not that good.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
6:44 pm
kirkinga – Hanson for Braun isn’t nearly as good a deal. He is cheaper by a year and controlled by the team for an extra year, a whole extra year pre arbitration is why we waited until June to call him up in the first place. He also isn’t a Boras client, raising his likelihood of signing an extension for a more reasonable amount. Then in most scouts opinions, Hanson has better pitches than JJ, meaning he is more likely to continue his excellent performance. His stats to date have backed up scouts opinions, wheras JJJ has significantly exceed scouts opinions.
And also pretty importantly, Hanson is simply more popular and fun to watch than Jurrjens. I know this blog seems to say JJJ is really popular, but I know I get invited to the most Hanson games, then Vasquez games, and then Jurrjens. People really enjoy going to see Hanson pitch. It’s like in the 90’s when people loved to see Maddux or Smoltz, and Glavine was fine too, but because he was third choice the casual fans rarely got excited for his starts. I don’t know how many extra tickets any of these guys sell, but a person with tons of time on their hands could probably figure out a formula that would spit out a dollar figure for the increased attendance.
Wren would still have to consider getting Braun if the deal was Hanson, but it’s a much less lucrative scenario.
ncgary
October 29th, 2009
6:45 pm
braun and hart for jjj diaz and freeman sure
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
6:45 pm
Kirk, No, Tommy Hanson IS a future ace. You don’t trade him for anyone – including Ryan Braun
HAHAHA!
Oh, I see, so all the stuff about possible injury and all that only applies to JJ, the guy who has been outstanding for a bit over 2 season now?
With Hanson we get shifting rationales. We can’t trade him because in his near 3/4’s season we’ve anointed him our “future ace”! Ah, I see now.
So present aces we trade, future aces we don’t. Um, ok, I think I have it now. I’m not even going to try and delve into why you would have different standards for players who are both starters and young and outstanding. It boogles the mind.
Truly, utterly, absurd.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
6:49 pm
No, Hanson is an ace now. His numbers already support the label.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
6:50 pm
agrees with me somewhat about the importance of speed. (VaBF)
I didn’t disagree about speed, I disagreed about the importance of stolen bases, which is one of those particulars that separate the old style stat fan from the newer ones. old fashioned fans place a lot of importance on them, most saber-guys don’t. if you run a correlation you find that it has only a small correlation with winning.as i said earlier, speed itself is a valuable asset as long as you aren’t trading some other important asset to get it. doesn’t help at all if it can’t get on base for instance
CJ
October 29th, 2009
6:51 pm
Kirk, Jair Jurrjens is not an ACE…….and continuing to call him that is “truly, utterly, absurd”. Tommy Hanson is strikeout pitcher with excellent peripherals. Prior to his call-up he was one of the top prospects in major league baseball. JJ is a finesse pitcher with decent peripherals. He was never considered a top ten prospect. And the ONLY people who think that JJ is an an ace are Atlanta Brave homers.
JJ for Braun is a HUGE win for the Braves. But the Brewers wouldn’t even remotely consider it – they would laugh at the thought of it.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
6:52 pm
nless they give him a No Trade clause, the best trade bait will be Tim Hudson after they sign him. Tim Hudson at 3-4 years around $9 million would deliver a nice return and an even better package than Vasquez. (Kirk)
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
6:54 pm
Hanson for Braun isn’t nearly as good a deal. He is cheaper by a year and controlled by the team for an extra year, a whole extra year pre arbitration is why we waited until June to call him up in the first place…..And also pretty importantly, Hanson is simply more popular and fun to watch than Jurrjens…..
Wow, just wow!
So now it’s about cheap, and who we like to watch more? Really?
I can’t believe you typed that for all to see…lol!
The answer is you don’t trade either one. They are building blocks. Smart teams identify and keep those players that have distinguished themselves as foundational. Only a handful of teams trade away such players and only because the owners care more about profit than winning.
But having a double standard with JJ and Hanson is sad and really casts the person trying to explain that double standard in a bad light.
Eric In Albany N.Y.
October 29th, 2009
6:58 pm
This is so stupid. the only reason to trade a pitcher like jiar is to free up payroll. JJ has a very afordable contract and is a corner stone to the pitching staff. the only reason to trade derek or javy or even KK is to drop them from the payroll. open and shut case JJ Stays cus he isnt even close to his prime and is cheap.
Why are we talking about this?
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
7:00 pm
I’ll go ahead and say it Kirkinga – The Braves are a mid-market team under liberty media. We have serious payroll limitations, so yes it is of vital importance not to make wrong moves regarding players in their rookie scale salaries. JJJ is much closer to big money than Hanson is, therefore he has less value to the team.
Secondly, this is a freaking game. It’s entertainment. If we have the best team in the game, and nobody shows up to watch then what does it matter?
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
7:01 pm
Kirkinga – How does it cast a bad light on me to have different standards for players with different ability levels and contract status? If you can’t see significant differences in the two players, then I’m done talking with you.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
7:02 pm
Why are we talking about this? Eric
so all the homers can say that there is nobody in baseball worth trading him for ?
CJ
October 29th, 2009
7:03 pm
Kirk, Name ONE other pitcher who most consider to be an ace who had fewer strikeouts than JJ (152) last year. For the record, he finished in 36th place in strikeouts even though he pitched 215 innings (16th highest in the league). Name ONE other pitcher who most would consider to be an ace who has a worse K/BB rate than he does. As I said, he is a very good pitcher but aces are typically high strikeout guys with great peripherals. Will the Braves trade him? No. But would they trade him if the Brewers would offer Ryan Braun for him? Yes, of course they would.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
7:03 pm
nolie, I know that, but I’d trade Hudson (if it was at all possible) before I traded Vasquez. The reason being I believe Hudson’s track record and payroll friendly contract would bring a better return.
To all the “JJ isn’t an ace, but Hanson is crowd”, shame on you all. DOB and others, gave you the freakin numbers..across the board, pick a state.. and how he compares to some starters that are consensus “aces”, and he holds up quite well.
And y’all know full well when it was his turn in the rotation you felt real good about the Braves’ chances that game despite the opposing starter. That is because JJ is an ace. I think Hanson will be one too, but I need to see more and I need to see how that elbow withstands that delivery before I fully buy in. But right now, I would trade neither one.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
7:06 pm
nolie, I know that, but I’d trade Hudson (if it was at all possible) before I traded Vasquez. The reason being I believe Hudson’s track record and payroll friendly contract would bring a better return. (Kirk)
I knew what you were thinking, and actually if he never goes to free agency i think they could legally trade him, but i’m willing to bet that they wouldn’t even if they could.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
7:07 pm
Kirk – I’m leaving for the day anyway, but here’s a question for you to ponder. If you were forced to trade either Hanson or Jurrjens who do you keep? Absolutely no choice in the matter, one or the other’s gone.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
7:12 pm
Absolutely no choice in the matter, one or the other’s gone. (uga acc)
that’s a bit of a tough one. Hanson has better potential upside, but there are a significant number of analysts who are worried about his mechanics. i guess i would keep Hanson, since the truth is that either-or neither-could get hurt.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
7:16 pm
Kirk To all the “JJ isn’t an ace, but Hanson is crowd”, shame on you all. DOB and others, gave you the freakin numbers..across the board, pick a state.. and how he compares to some starters that are consensus “aces”, and he holds up quite well.
No, he doesn’t. That is the exact problem with calling him an ace. Go to the website called fangraphs.com. The only stats that he compares well in are ERA and WHIP. But both of those stats are fielding dependent stats. On the non fielding dependent stats he doesn’t compare well at all. Look at Javier Vazquez last year. He had 238 strikeouts in 219 innings pitched. His Fielding Independent ERA was 2.77 (which was LOWER than his actual ERA of 2.87). Javier Vazquez put up ACE stats last year – Jair did NOT.
I know that it is impossible to convince you otherwise but JJ is just a very good young pitcher who most of us like a lot. But you cannot compare him to the Lincecums and Santanas of the world.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
7:16 pm
ugaaccountant- because they play the same position, are both young, are both cheap. You measure all starters by the same standard, they don’t shift because you like watching one pitch more than the other. I measure all 2nd basemen by the same standard, all CF’s, you cannot have a different standard if you are trying to be objective.
If you’re not trying to be objective, then say so. Let us know like you like how Hanson wears his pants better than JJ or something like that. That way you leave no doubt for the rest of us.
Still can’t believe that one…lol!
CJ, sorry strikeouts don’t make aces, Greg Maddux taught us that, so have others over their careers.
Wow, still waiting for someone to give us an example of when a team traded a young, cheap, injury free pitcher, with across the board stats that compare with the best starters in all of baseball, for one positional player.
Here’s what you “JJ is not an ace” folks should do. Go onto another team’s blog, message board, whatever, and see if they think JJ is an ace or would they even think about trading such a player.
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
7:18 pm
VaBravesFan Molina is better on defense but the bat is no comparison…
True that. But BMac’s as good as anybody at pouncing on those rollers in front of the plate. And who cann forget this play?
Loved that one.
Molina’s still better on D, of course, but BMac is getting better.
Mac will just keep adding to the achievments under the radar. We know he is good and thats all that matters
Yep. And, y’know, I’d like him to get a little more recognition, but really I kinda like being “under the radar”. ‘Cause when those guys on TV go on and on about different players, I almost get sick to my stomach…
Speaking of sick to my stomach…where’d you get that figure for Mauer’s contact? I saw a thing somewhere (think it was Yahoo!) that said he’s eligible or whatever to get one of the biggest contracts in baseball history, but I didn’t see any numbers. Thanks!
KC
October 29th, 2009
7:19 pm
CJ, ERA is not always a dependable measure of a RELIEF pitcher. But for a starting pitcher, over the course of 6 months and 34 starts… ERA is far and away the most reliable indicator of success. The bullpen and defense play a role, but for the most part, ERA is an extremely accurate measure of a starting pitcher’s performance.
But I also quoted you innings pitched, quality starts, WHIP (which is a good indicator of base runners allowed), and HR’s against. And NONE of that matters to you? In a word… Wow.
I’ve talked with numerous people before who like to pretend that anyone who looks at ERA, batting average, or slugging percentage… is somehow less sophisticated in their evaluation of a player as those who pull the most obscure sabermetrician’s wet dream BS algorithms out of their a$$es and hold it up as a more scientific analysis. I’ve talked to more than one of those folks… but this takes the cake.
You’re HONESTLY going to discard all of the following stats in an effort to make your case that Jurrjens “isn’t even close to being an ace”:
• ERA
• Quality Starts
• Innings Pitched
• WHIP
• HR’s against
You’re TRULY going to tell me those numbers don’t matter; don’t tell the story his ’09 season? Really?? That’s got to be the weakest argument I’ve ever heard.
There are different ways to evaluate information, and I can always appreciate different points of view. But you’re just flat denying the facts.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
7:26 pm
CJ, sorry strikeouts don’t make aces, Greg Maddux taught us that…….
Good try but go ahead and compare a young Maddux to a young Jair and you will see a HUGE difference in their stats. Maddux had a very low FIP ERA and a VERY good K/BB rate…..as do most of the other young aces in baseball today.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
7:33 pm
KC, I will challenge you to the same task as Kirk. Name ONE starting pitcher who most consider an ace to have a worse K/BB rate, fewer strikeouts, and a higher FIP ERA than Jair Jurrjens.
And ERA is NOT “far and away” the best indicator of a starter. Fielding Independent ERA is a better indicator of a starter, plus a lot of the other stats I have mentioned in my previous posts.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
7:33 pm
But for a starting pitcher, over the course of 6 months and 34 starts… ERA is far and away the most reliable indicator of success. KC
it is a reliable indicator of what already happened, it is not a reliable of why it happened or whether it is sustainable.there are other better indicators for prediction. same deal as rbi, great to have had them, but not so great at why and will it continue. too much team related influence in both. i fail to see how it is so hard to understand the difference.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
7:33 pm
kirk
It’s all speculative here. Would you do this or that? It is obvious that you are higher on Jurrjens than Hanson. No problem. I can understand that. I am only slightly higher on Hanson than I am on Jurrjens.
If I could get Ryan Braun for Hanson, I would probably do that deal too. AND, the only reason I would trade one of them, is because I have the other one, plus I still have Hudson, Vazquez, Kawakami and Lowe.
Pitchers are very tenuous at best. They can drop like a rock, if the wrong thing goes wrong.
Generally speaking though, I would never deal a guy like Jurrjens or Hanson, unless I was filling a hole with a known entity for 12-15 years. (granting you that nothing is truly a known entity)
I really don’t think any of us are saying anything totally outlandish here. Just a lot of speculating.
You asked the question, when was the last time that a player like that was dealt. I really can’t remember. I can remember a few years ago, but in the past 20 years, I honestly can’t think of any. I will ponder on that one though.
Last night, I proclaimed the Yankees in 6. Now, I am not so sure. BUT, I have my doubts about Pedro giving the Phils anything close to what Lee did last night. And, Hamels is going to be ready for game 3 I assume. WOW.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
7:35 pm
I know that it is impossible to convince you otherwise but JJ is just a very good young pitcher who most of us like a lot. But you cannot compare him to the Lincecums and Santanas of the world.
Please don’t project you subjectiveness on to me. Yes I can be persuaded with good evidence but you haven’t made your case. I am persuaded by the information DOB,/strong> and others have presented.
Maybe you forgot a few things:
He went 14-10 with a staff-best 2.60 ERA, and in his last 20 starts he was 9-5 with a 2.42 ERA. In four of those 20 games, he got a loss or no decision while allowing two earned runs or fewer in seven innings or more. In that 20-game stretch, he also got consecutive losses in games when he allowed three earned runs in seven innings and three earned runs in eight innings…….Jurrjens held hitters to a .192 average with runners in scoring position, one of only eight major league qualifiers with sub-.200 marks in that category. His .203 average allowed with runners on base was tied with Clayton Kershaw for fifth in the NL, relievers included (two ahread of him were relievers Carlos Marmol and Renyel Pinto).
That information alone would lead me to have no problem applying the label of “elite” to JJ. Not only this season, but last season as well.
Now I could be wrong, but aren’t his numbers better at this point than those of Smoltz, Glavine, and Maddux? Why don’t you head on over to Fangraphs and see what you pick out on that one.
…and we still wait for an example of a team doing a 1-1 trading away of a young starter who wasn’t injury and was cheap, for one positional player. I keep asking that question because if we could come up with some examples it would make this feel like a more worthy discussion and not a complete waste of time.
Oh look….the World Series is on. Wonder if the Yankess would trade Melky for JJ?
Thundersticks
October 29th, 2009
7:37 pm
“I see no one has answered my question. Name me a trade where a team traded a known young and cheap very good starter straight up in a 1-1 deal.”
-kirkinga
I believe Josh Hamilton for Edison Volquez would qualify.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
7:38 pm
I am too old to get too excited about some of the new measurements of statistics that are used today. I am certain they are good. But, I think I will just trust my eyes (when I watch the games) and my ears (when I listen to the games) to tell me who is an ace and who is a MVP type player.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
7:38 pm
Wonder if the Yankess would trade Melky for JJ? (Kirk)
probably. kind of a weak straw man though. Cano mighta been better??
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
7:41 pm
McFann
I believe MLB trade rumors, it was mostly talk, i think i seen something on one ESPN’s chat logs where someone mentioned the Yankees or Mets Shelling out the mega contract to get him behind the plate. Mauer is the real deal but i think its risky to give a Catcher a huge 8-10 year deal considering how fast they break down. Yankees are paying Posada over 10+ mil a year and he mainly DH’s and they carry 3 catchers on the roster…..
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
7:42 pm
kirk
Not trying to be argumentative. I agree that JJ’s first two years are better than those of Glavine and Maddux. I can’t recall exactly what Smoltz did his first 2 years (old timers disease).
But, if I remember correctly, Steve Avery did as well as or better than JJ has in his first two years.
Just making a point that you can be premature labeling a young pitcher. I hope JJ goes on to win 3-4 Cy Youngs with the Braves. I truly do.
Let’s give the kid another couple of years before we hang a label on him. Hanson too, for that matter.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
7:44 pm
Thunder
Good example, but Volquez was not established like JJ is.
Thundersticks
October 29th, 2009
7:45 pm
Once Lackey signs, the market for Lowe will develop. Once Lowe is gone, we can extend Vazquez to a similar (but probably a little more) deal to Hudson’s. Maybe 3/30-33.
We’ll offer arb to both Soriano & Gonzalez. At least one, if not both will decline thus giving us draft picks. We’ll fill out the bullpen accordingly.
We’ll also offer arb to LaRoche. Not sure he’d accept it, but we’d still get the picks if he decides to go elsewhere. If he does, I suggest we contact the Padres about Blanks. He’s an up-and-coming 1B/OF guy that absolutely killed us last year. He also hits RH.
As for LF, we’ll probably go on the cheap through trade because I just don’t see Liberty loosening the pursue strings to sign Holliday or Bay.
If we can just get solid power up and down the lineup, the offense should be fine.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
7:45 pm
Wayne, I believe I said that I would not trade either JJ or Hanson and that they were both “foundational”. But ok, if you want to pretend that I’m “higher on” Hanson than JJ, you go right ahead. I thought I was putting them in the same class though I want to see more of Hanson before I feel as comfortable.
I really don’t think any of us are saying anything totally outlandish here. Just a lot of speculating.
Sorry but saying a reason you would trade JJ but not Hanson is because you like to watch Hanson pitch more qualifies as outlandish to me.
Having a double standard for players who play the same position is outlandish to me.
I know it’s speculation, but that does not make it somehow immune from questioning. And it is how false rumors get started and I don’t want JJ reading somewhere that there’s been talk he could be traded. (same for Hanson, ok)
..oh wait..you…you….agree don’t you? You believe that is a real good reason?
Thundersticks
October 29th, 2009
7:46 pm
“Good example, but Volquez was not established like JJ is.” -Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
True, but he was a highly touted prospect like Hanson.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
7:50 pm
Let’s give the kid another couple of years before we hang a label on him. Hanson too, for that matter.
That is an entirely different argument Wayne. I thought we were talking..speculating about, trading JJ.
Not to be argumentative, but you folks need to make up your minds. Too much shifting going on.
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
7:50 pm
VaBravesFan–
He sure as HECK better not go to the Mets!! He needs to stay in the AL…the LAST thing we need is that guy in the NL. NO THANK YOU!
its risky to give a Catcher a huge 8-10 year deal considering how fast they break down.
I agree.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
7:52 pm
Thundersticks…I agree, I believe there will be a more of a market for Lowe as the offseason progresses. Hopefully we’ll get a sense of it by the end of the Winter Meetings.
Random
October 29th, 2009
7:55 pm
CB (October 29th, 2009 5:30 pm): “you know you and I are the only ones on here who are always right. We allow these other guys to post for our amusement.”
I know ‘AT’S right, shotgun!
KC
October 29th, 2009
7:55 pm
CJ, I couldn’t give flying #$%^& about K/BB. It’s completely and totally irrelevant.
There are different ways to get outs. He gets outs. Period. He is very good at keeping hitters off the basepaths (as his top-10 WHIP would indicate, and more importantly, he keeps runners from crossing the plate.
Please spare the the fielding independent ERA crap. There as nothing wrong with the Braves defense, but it wasn’t an Ozzie Smith, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente, and Keith Hernandez behind him. His 2.60 ERA wasn’t an early Christmas gift from his defense. He finished 3rd in the league in ERA because he EARNED it; because he established himself in 2009 as one of the best damned young starting pitchers in baseball.
Find me a scout, coach, player, or official who would consider him otherwise. Hell… can you even find me a baseball reporter from a credible publication that would agree with you??
I’ll leave it at that CJ. You seem to like that idea that you’ve outsmarted all of the antiquated establishment numbers, and have discovered the more intelligent formula by which to evaluate a player. But I say again… it’s the weakest argument I’ve ever heard.
If you’re going to throw out ERA, innings pitched, quality starts, WHIP, and HR’s allowed… there’s not really any point in carrying on the conversation. To put it mildly, you and I are not going to agree.
Rob from SC
October 29th, 2009
7:56 pm
After Lackey, the pitching market drops off. Some teams will want Derek Lowe
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
7:58 pm
McFann
But you know how the Mets and Yankees/RedSox are… Money is not a problem with them they overspend on the roster and build teams that look like juggernaunts compared to others. Ahh the good old days when the Yankees had a 2-3-4 hitter in everyspot in the order. When they had Soriano and he was hitting 50 homers a season out of the leadoff spot thats a little rediculous…. and paying AROD 29.1 million year is rediculous, way overboard and if i was a fan of any of them teams they better make it to the World Series every year if ur gonna build a team like that. Overboard team, The Braves we fall in the will give you almost enough to get the job done category. It seems like this organization counts penny’s for crying out loud. We got to get chipper to bail out the payroll whenever there isnt enoug room to make a move. Then u got clubs like the Pirates they just flat out dont care about the team, McCutchin will be wearing a new uniform in a couple seasons. lol dang i kinda went off there didnt i ….
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
8:02 pm
KC, no, you see it’s also about who you like to watch pitch more too….lol!
nolie
October 29th, 2009
8:05 pm
Some teams will want Derek Lowe (Rob)
Hope springs eternal, huh? might even be true. ¿quien sabe?
BTW how’s that shoulder coming?you feeling any better yet? Started active rehab?
Heyward saw you slacking off with an injury and decided to emulate his biggest fan I guess.
KC
October 29th, 2009
8:06 pm
nolie, I get what you’re saying. But unless you have the best ERA damned defense and bullpen in the league supporting you, I feel ERA is far and away the single more relevant stat for a starter. We’ll have to agree to disagree, I guess.
But do you agree with CJ? I didn’t stop at ERA… I gave him ERA, WHIP, innings pitched, quality starts, and HR’s allowed… and feels all of that’s irrelevant. He apparently prefers to use some formula he deciphered by decoding every 5th letter on a dogeared page of “Moneyball”. Call me old fashioned, but I think there are people who like to overcomplicate because it makes them feel smart.
I’m a Braves fan, but no special fan of Jair Jurrjens. I don’t enjoy watching him pitch the degree I like watching Vazquez or Hanson. I actually find Jair to be kind of boring. BUT… the fact remains, he rocked the sh!t this year. And no sabermetric acid trip can take that away from him.
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
8:06 pm
VaBravesFan lol dang i kinda went off there didnt i ….
Haha, no prob. Been there myself.
Yeah, I know how the Mets and Yankees and Red Sox are…but I hope the Yankees or Red Sox cann outspend the Mets…that is, if Mauer leaves the Twins. I for one think he should stay with the Twins. I mean, come on, he’s from Minnesota, right? He’s their own little Brian McCann! He has to stick with them…
Rob from SC
October 29th, 2009
8:08 pm
nolie
Thanks for Asking
Had 7 screws inserted in the shoulder. Still in the brace until November 13. Then the Rehab process begins. 6 weeks in this brace. I am going to go crazy.
Heyward will be fine, he will win the job in Spring Training.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
8:12 pm
McFann
Yeah your right about that. Tough spot tho money walks bullsh!t talks. lol
Jeter just got k’ed awesome , be cool to see the Yanks get swept and for Arod to go 0-fer in the whole series
KC
October 29th, 2009
8:14 pm
kirkinga, Wayne In Utah: Respectfully, it really doesn’t matter how JJ compares to the first couple seasons of Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery, or anyone else. Everyone comes along at a different pace, and there are different approaches and different ways of getting outs.
Bottom line is… Jurrjens’ ‘09 numbers stand for themselves:
In 2009, Jair Jurrjens was:
#3 in NL ERA (2.60)
#2 in Quality Starts (25… second only to Lincecum’s 26)
#10 in innings pitched
#9 in WHIP (200+ inns)
#3 in fewest HR’s allowed (200+ inns)
Again, some people want to throw out all of the established numbers by which players have been measured for a century because it makes them feel smart to think they have a more sophisticated formula by which to evaluate a player. These people live in such denial of the obvious that if it were a rattlesnake they’d be hours away from losing a limb.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
8:16 pm
But do you agree with CJ? I didn’t stop at ERA… (KC)
no not really. I look at a lot of stats including ERA, but I place more emphasis on the stats that are the least influenced by other players on his team. ERA, like RBI, is an important stat describing what happened, they just aren’t the best for predicting and explaining why. On an aside, when I do consider ERA I am more partial to ERA+. Park adjustments rule my man. That’s for Scoots.
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
8:17 pm
Is this JJJ talk been going on here all week? Wow.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
8:18 pm
Heyward will be fine, he will win the job in Spring Training. (Rob)
ok I guess we are still having this argument. He will be fine, he likely won’t win the job in the spring.
Random
October 29th, 2009
8:19 pm
Bobby’s Cox (October 29th, 2009 5:19 pm): “nolie,
“I’m feeling a need for speed too. Just this week I switched from Mitchum to Speed Stick.”
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
8:22 pm
Random,
Good stuff.
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
8:22 pm
VaBravesFan–
Ain’t it the truth about the money…sheesh.
be cool to see the Yanks get swept and for Arod to go 0-fer in the whole series
Yeah…but I’m bad, I was wanting the whole not-having-homefield-advantage to come back and bite Charlie Manuel and the Fillies…But I don’t want the Yankees to win either, so what the heck.
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
8:27 pm
By the way–VERY good National Anthem! Goose-bump alert…
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
8:28 pm
HAHA AROD get in front of it lol he gots to make that play making his kind of money….
Sonny Clusters
October 29th, 2009
8:30 pm
They is always rumors going on about trades with good pitchers. Jurrjens will not get traded, but we was distracted watching the horror of Kawakami pitching and we was thinking we need to trade him. They is not helping the team and they remind me of Stinky Wintes except Stinky Wintes stunk and could get people out.
Steve from OH
October 29th, 2009
8:30 pm
But for a starting pitcher, over the course of 6 months and 34 starts… ERA is far and away the most reliable indicator of success.
I disagree. ERA is a good stat to look at, no doubt. It’s simple, to-the-point, and everyone knows what it means. However, pretending that ERA is all we need to look at, is freakin’ foolish as heck. You can’t examine ERA in a vacuum just like you can’t examine BA or OBP in a vacuum. You have to dig deeper, man. Even examining WHIP is iffy because BA (and therefore, BAA) is so variable and at times, luck driven. You ain’t stupid or backwards for not believing in whatever saber stat you want to pick, but we’re not whatever it is that you think of us because we’re not going to take such limited stats as BA and ERA or whatever as gospel. It works both ways, dude.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
8:31 pm
KC, uh, I’m on your side dude, you don’t need to tell me what it’s all about because I already agree with you. Kindly do not include me with Wayne on this matter because we are worlds apart on it, speculative or not.
Steve from OH
October 29th, 2009
8:32 pm
nolie–I think Hicks has a lot of positives. He’s good good pop for a SS, and walks a lot, which is always good. His good defense should at least give him a shot to be a backup somewhere, but man, for the life of him, he just can’t hit.
Hopefully he can fix that.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
8:33 pm
oops, current board fav Swisher is benched for slumping while under the influence of WS pressure. Do we still want this guy???
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
8:36 pm
oops, current board fav Swisher is benched for slumping while under the influence of WS pressure. Do we still want this guy???
Define who “we” are, it is only a handful really. More like a splinter group of the Adam Dunn Fan Club…lol!
Random
October 29th, 2009
8:37 pm
Commodore O’Brien (October 29th, 2009 5:21 pm): “And with Hudson close to signing, my guess is Wren will try to trade Lowe first. If he can trade Lowe, then I think he offers Vazquez an extension. If he is unable to trade Lowe, I think Vazquez will be traded.”
I had always thought that Wren would try to extend Vazquez before addressing Hudson. Evidently I was wrong.
Reason why, I figure, may be that the widespread speculation here that Wren had first determined that there was indeed a trade market for Lowe before negotiating Hudson’s extension was not groundless.
If it is true that there is a definitely exploitable trade market for Lowe, then there’s no need for him to rush.
He can now take his time negotiating Vazquez’ extension, and he can play coy with potential trade partners for Lowe. (Give ‘em the ol’ Towers treatment.
)
I disagree with several other commenters here that another deal will follow quickly on the heels of the Hudson extension — at least, not one involving our surplus SPs.
Just a hunch. But I do think Wren will first try to extend Vazquez, before deciding whether to trade Lowe, not vice versa.
If Vazquez will not extend, it’ll be him that’s traded. Otherwise, kiss Lowe good-bye.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
8:40 pm
HAHAHA
nolie
Arod is 0-5 with 4 k’s so far WS pressure who wants him… lol he cant even hit the ball, good thing i’m not a yankees fan cause i would bash him whenever he messes up. Pay the man twice as much as he is worth to perform ….
Bill
October 29th, 2009
8:41 pm
DOB, What kind of motorcycle do you ride and what would you suggest for a 66 year old looking for a new toy? I’ve been looking but damn they are so many. Help!
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
8:42 pm
McFann
•Thesier said that though talks between the Twins and Joe Mauer about a contract extension haven’t yet begun, “don’t take Mauer’s patience to mean that the catcher isn’t interested in signing an extension.” Thesier also noted a possible good omen for Minnesota fans — Mauer’s agent, Ron Shapiro, also represented single-franchise stars Kirby Puckett and Cal Ripken Jr.
Soph
October 29th, 2009
8:44 pm
By the way–VERY good National Anthem! Goose-bump alert…
John Legend!
That was a great catch by Ibanez.
MZ
October 29th, 2009
8:46 pm
DOB —-
Yeah, mp3s … Pop it into your computer, and rip ‘em to iTunes … let me know what you think when you get a chance … what stuff did I send you that you don’t already have/haven’t already heard?
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
8:46 pm
Philly is good.
NY fans getting unnerved.
CB
October 29th, 2009
8:46 pm
Bill, at that age you might want to start looking for a walker. Just kidding,I am close to your age.
Justafan
October 29th, 2009
8:48 pm
National BBQ cook out in Douglas, Ga. Friday and Sat. Over 50 different ones from all over the US cooking to win the Money and Title. Everyone welcome. Great eating!
Random
October 29th, 2009
8:48 pm
VaBraveFan (October 29th, 2009 5:23 pm): “nolie
“Your correct about the overall outcome, but the reason i’m talking about it [speed] cause the Braves have none of that……..
“Schafer and Heyward are gonna fix that but there not here and playing yet.
We got 5 guys already that will prolly hit 20 homers each. Chipper,McCann,McLouth,Escobar,LaRoche (if resigned)
“Do the other things better this team has enough offense to contend. Baserunning, Defense, Productive outs, Closing out Games. As i mentioned we blew 22 gms last year. The reason i saying all of this cause the Braves wont be able to bring in a 35 homer 100+ rbi guy, without giving up Javy, Young Talent, All remaining Payroll.”
Like I mentioned earlier, the Braves will not be able to show significant improvement in “Baserunning, Defense, Productive outs” without a massive turnover of their ML roster.
One slugging RH corner OF would be easier and cheaper and sufficient to the Braves’ offensive needs (assuming LaRoche is kept or an adequate repalcement obtained).
Unless of course you think that the current Braves were holding back this past season, sandbagging or just not giving it their all?
If so, I would have to disagree.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
8:48 pm
nolie kirklinga
Nick Swisher i do like. considering he is only making around 5.5 mil a season for 2 more seasons. Switch Hitter Plays Corner Outfield and 1st Base. Gets on base a ton, and has 25-30 homer power, and maybe a switch to the NL will help. He is a decent option considering all the options lol, Swisher or Ludwick are the 2 players that have already been floated around as trade candidates that i like the most.
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
8:54 pm
VaBravesFan–
Thanks for that! Just wanna keep that guy out of the NL.
And if I were a Twins fan…I would be TICKED with a capital T if he left for more money.
Mauer’s agent, Ron Shapiro, also represented single-franchise stars Kirby Puckett and Cal Ripken Jr.
Keep seein’ that guy Kirby Puckett’s name…ever since April…
Bill
October 29th, 2009
8:55 pm
CB, that what I’m trying to avoid. Retired, wifes gone, kids grown, got to do somrthing.
Steve from OH
October 29th, 2009
8:56 pm
Oh, God. I hope A-Rod actually does something this time so we can finally stop with the annoying-ass “A-Rod isn’t clutch” or whatever BS argument always comes up. Whatever. He’s still really good regardless.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
8:57 pm
Steve from OH
yeah he is good, but its alot funner to watch him struggle.
CB
October 29th, 2009
8:58 pm
Bill, go for it buddy. Wish you the best and sorry about your wife.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
8:59 pm
Man Rollins sure is causeing alot of problems for a top notch pitcher like Burnett….. But the braves dont need any of that kind of baserunning ability.
Random
October 29th, 2009
9:05 pm
kirkinga (October 29th, 2009 5:48 pm): “Unless they give him a No Trade clause, the best trade bait will be Tim Hudson after they sign him. Tim Hudson at 3-4 years around $9 million would deliver a nice return and an even better package than Vasquez. Hudson likely would net the Braves a nice 3-1 deal with all at least two of those players plugging existing holes. In other words, Hudson likely returns more than just the ever elusive, “One Big Bat”, which has become this blog’s White Rabbit.”
Dirty deed, done dirt cheap? (Shame on you for even thinking it!)
But sorry, bud — if Hudson re-signs with the Braves, he’ll have an automatic no-trade clause.
He’ll be a 10/5 man (10+ years in ML, 5 years with one club). No trade without his consent.
PS: now, there may be a small window from now until 5 days after the WS for the Braves to trade Hudson (and his wacky option) to another team, but what are the chances of that?
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
9:06 pm
Kirk you ignorant slut, I never said the only reason to keep Hanson over a similar talent in Jurrjens was any one thing. I listed a variety of reasons. But have fun using selective reading.
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
9:07 pm
VaBraveFan,
Yep. Not just Rollins but the entire Philly lineup. Burnett’s thrown 61 pitches through 3. It’s like a team concept at the plate, aided by base runners like Rollins. They’re gonna get to the Yankee bullpen early. That’s how you beat a team like NY in NY in the World Series, and ultimately how you win the WS.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
9:15 pm
UGA, Kirk is very good at selective reading.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
9:19 pm
Kirk you ignorant slut…
Why thank you!
I’ll just end by reminding you that the selected wording was your own. You are right it wasn’t the only reason you gave, but it was one of the funniest, most unbelievable things that I’ve ever seen someone put into print.
Random
October 29th, 2009
9:19 pm
kirkinga (October 29th, 2009 6:17 pm): “But I wouldn’t trade JJ for even A-Rod straight up.”
Wow.
Just . . .
wow.
Don’t you think you’re overstating your case just a wee bit?
Or are you concerned about the size of his contract?
To use your own words against you: “So now it’s about cheap? Really? I can’t believe you typed that for all to see…lol!”
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
9:25 pm
Bobby’s Cox
me and you are the only one’s that think the braves could use a speedster type player.
Random
We dont have to revamp the roster to improve defense and fundemental hitting like moving runners and bunting and making productive outs. Yes to get more stolen bases, but i dont see the big problem most have with mentioning it would be nice to have someone that can cause some problems on the basepaths…..
Everyone thinks a 35 homer 100 rbi is just gonna fall in our lap……
CJ
October 29th, 2009
9:28 pm
Kirk and KC;
Yes, JJ is a very good pitcher – no one is disputing that. But, if you use ALL of the current available statistics (not just ERA, WHIP, etc.) he is not CURRENTLY one of the best pitchers in baseball.
As for Maddux, he was better overall than JJ his first 2 years in the league if you use ALL stats. Smoltz struggled his first season but settled down after that – common in power pitchers. Glavine struggled for the first 2 – 3 years.
I’m not saying that JJ will never reduce his walk rate drastically or become an ace-like pitcher. As smart as he is and as dedicated as he is I would not beg against him. All I am saying is that he isn’t one now.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
9:28 pm
Why trade JJ for AROD you can land 3 good players for the price of his salary…. AROD is a waste of money, Pujols deserves his money they should swap contracts and it might make more sence considering Money wise AROD makes twice as much a Pujols which is a complete F’n joke.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
9:42 pm
Random, I wouldn’t make that trade. If A-Rod was 10-years younger yes, I make the trade, but now, nope, no way. Also, A-rod and all the drama around him on the Braves? Not gonna happen. Third, no where for A-Rod to play unless it’s the OF or 1st base on the Braves. And yes, how do you fit in his contract on this team without having to trade away other pieces.
You disagree, I take it, that’s fine.
And if you are going to use my words against, gee, you could have used some that were actually weapon worry ya know.
For example, when I predicted Hampton would come back and win 10 games the season before last, now those are words worthy of being used against someone.
Thanks for playing.
Random
October 29th, 2009
9:46 pm
nolie (October 29th, 2009 7:33 pm): ” ‘But for a starting pitcher, over the course of 6 months and 34 starts… ERA is far and away the most reliable indicator of success.’ KC
“it is a reliable indicator of what already happened, it is not a reliable of why it happened or whether it is sustainable.there are other better indicators for prediction. same deal as rbi, great to have had them, but not so great at why and will it continue. too much team related influence in both. i fail to see how it is so hard to understand the difference.”
nolie (October 29th, 2009 8:16 pm): ” ‘But do you agree with CJ? I didn’t stop at ERA… ‘(KC)
“no not really. I look at a lot of stats including ERA, but I place more emphasis on the stats that are the least influenced by other players on his team. ERA, like RBI, is an important stat describing what happened, they just aren’t the best for predicting and explaining why. On an aside, when I do consider ERA I am more partial to ERA+. Park adjustments rule my man. That’s for Scoots.”
Very well said. Bravo.
If we keep pounding away at the essential and crucial distinction between descriptive and predictive statistics, one day maybe everyone* will get it.
(* Except KC.)
(And, at the other end of the spectrum, except Shaun.)
keylargo
October 29th, 2009
9:50 pm
I compared Jurrjens to Steve Avery last night. Next year, to match Avery, Jurrjens will have to go 20 – 5 and lower his WHIP and raise his SO/BB ratio.
You judge who the better pitcher was but Avery was hurt and never won more than 10 games again. That’s why I would trade JJ for, say Braun.
keylargo
October 28th, 2009
11:30 pm
OK, you do not want to trade JJ for Ryan Braun. But, let’s look at it.
Steve Avery was every bit the pitcher JJ is and a case could be made that he had a better upside. Let’s just look at it.
Avery (91 – 93)
W/L 47 – 25 3.17 ERA SO/BB 2.18 WHIP 1.199
Jurrjens (08 – 09)
W/L 27 – 20 3.10 ERA SO/BB 1.287 WHIP 1.287
Efrim
October 29th, 2009
9:51 pm
Why does JJ have to be considered an ace by some here? What’s wrong with him being a strong #2 starter? One that is currently 23 years old and under team control through 2013. He’s really, really good.
On another note, 6 K’s and 1 ER for Pedro? Speechless.
Random
October 29th, 2009
9:53 pm
CB (October 29th, 2009 8:46 pm): “Bill, at that age you might want to start looking for a walker. Just kidding,I am close to your age.”
Huh.
I pictured you more along the lines of Ramrod Rowdy Yates than Grandpa McCoy.
Go figure.
Steve from OH
October 29th, 2009
9:55 pm
Efrim–why is it a capital offense to say he’s not an ace? Geez, how many legit aces are there out there, anyway? He’s probably a no. 2 or no. 3, I agree, and a darn good one, in every facet.
I’m glad to have him. And I hope that he stays a Brave for a long time. Just ’cause I don’t think he’s Lincecum-esque doesn’t mean that I wanna trade him.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
9:57 pm
Ramrod Rowdy Yates
Rowdy wasn’t the ramrod was he? I thought that was Gil Favor.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
9:59 pm
Efrim, I’m fine with that. The only problem is that is not what the subject of the blog was about. I’m fully prepared to just say that he ranks among the elite pitchers. If someone needs more time before feeling comfortable calling him an “ace” that fine, I can understand that as long as you then do not turn around an tell me that JJ isn’t an ace but Tommy Hanson is one already or it is apparent somehow that he’s a “future ace” and JJ is not even given his body of work.
To that end, why would a fan of the Atlanta Braves have a problem with other Braves fans who believe JJ is an ace?
You know what, nevermind. Forget I asked that last question as nothing but trouble can come of it.
reagan
October 29th, 2009
9:59 pm
Heres a trade we can all agree with………….Liberty Media for Arthur Blank.
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
10:00 pm
Pitching in game 2 of the World Series? Take THAT AJ Burnett. That’ll teach you to not pick the Braves.
Steve from OH
October 29th, 2009
10:01 pm
Park adjustments rule my man. That’s for Scoots.”
Amen. I’m in need of a little park adjustment myself…
Wow
October 29th, 2009
10:07 pm
I think it’s hilarious that some BRAVES FANS are actually trying to go out of their way to prove that Jurrjens is not a great pitcher.
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
10:11 pm
Godzilla!
Wow
October 29th, 2009
10:11 pm
While they’re at it, why don’t the Braves go ahead and trade Hanson too. For all we know, he could turn out to be another Steve Avery. (Like apparently, Jurrjens is destined to)
dgd
October 29th, 2009
10:12 pm
What a great first two games of the World Series (last night was close until the 7th). Lee looked like Steve Carlton in his Phillie glory days (though no one has ever been better than Carlton was in 1972–27 wins with that dreadful team! It’s still astounding.)
I think the most likely trading partner for the Braves for Lowe is the Nationals. They are looking for exactly a Lowe-type pitcher: a durable innings-eater to sit atop their rotation and take the heat off of Strassburg (who probably won’t be called up until June, a la Hanson), Lannan and Detwiler. The Nats would love to give the Braves the right-handed power bat of Elijah Dukes for Lowe. Could you imagine Dukes playing for Bobby Cox? The Nats might do that one straight up. To get Willingham, the Braves would probably have to eat 3-4 million per year of Lowe’s contract–which still might be a good move.
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
10:14 pm
Wow
First of all, that’s not hilarious at all. Try telling that at a party and I’ll bet nobody will laugh. Second, all keylargo was saying is Jurrjens is no sure thing, and if the opportunity comes up to trade JJ for a player like Braun, he’d do it (I would too).
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
10:14 pm
At least I think that’s what he’s saying. Don’t mean to put words in his mouth.
jason
October 29th, 2009
10:15 pm
Leave the Brave’s Blog for a month or so and come back to hystria. How in the world can someone think that trading JJ is helping to rebuild this team? He is at this moment more important than Hansen. That’s saying alot, I know… considering the potential we all saw in Tommy this year. No, JJ and Tommy are the corner stones to the Braves future. This was a great article by the D.O.B. It also touches on the need to Javy around. Javy as well as Huddy are and will be valuable in the progressions of Tommy and JJ’s careers. Having said that, we are back to the point of 2 SPs and one spot. KK and Lowe for the fifth spot. I wish they could rid themselves of Lowe, but that is going to be hard. ATL will have to eat alot of salary. Yep, no mention of Medlen. He will be back in the BP in a more important role. He really showed what he had once he got his feet under him in the Majors. Question, if Soriano and or Gonzo were to leave, could the closer role fall to Lowe? I know alot of salsry for a closer, but Lowe does have closer experience.
O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
10:17 pm
AJ Burnett looks great. First pitch strike to 22 out of 25 hitters
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
10:18 pm
Hey, Jason! Long time no read!
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
10:22 pm
kirk
Whatever it was I said to get your feelings hurt, I am sorry about that. We were having a discussion about why you wouldn’t trade Jurrjens, and some of us stated that in certain rare and unusual circumstances, we would.
Obviously, we have touched a nerve with you or something.
A couple of opinions. Jurrjens is not a staff ace….yet. (my opinion)
Hanson is not a staff ace. Vazquez is not a staff ace.
We have the luxury of potentially having 3-4 co-aces on our club.
If some of us want to wait a little longer before we deem anybody an ace, then I guess maybe we should check with you first, so as to not hurt your feelings on the subject.
If you want to continue with the discussion, please do. If you don’t feel like you can because we are all too….what was the word you used???? Then fine. Just let us be.
To be honest, I am sorry I pointed any of my comments toward you in the first place. When you are finished getting your feelings hurt, chime back in.
Random
October 29th, 2009
10:22 pm
VaBraveFan (October 29th, 2009 9:25 pm): “We dont have to revamp the roster to improve defense and fundemental hitting like moving runners and bunting and making productive outs. Yes to get more stolen bases, but i dont see the big problem most have with mentioning it would be nice to have someone that can cause some problems on the basepaths…..”
Oh, yeah?
And just how are LaRoche, Prado, Escobar, Jones, Diaz, McLouth and McCann gonna IMPROVE their baserunning and bunting?
By trying harder?
You think they haven’t been trying their hardest already?
By practicing more?
How much practice have they had already to reach this level? How much even (as far as you know) do they already practice in ST and during the season?
By Cox calling for more steals, hit-and-runs, bunts, etc?
Cox uses the tools he’s got in his box. If all’s you got’s a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Cox simply does not currently have the players to make those strategies effective.
Like I said, it would take a massive turnover of the ML roster to go in that direction.
And btw, please realize that very seldom is a sacrifice bunt a “productive out”. Only in rare occasions is it productive, depending on the game situation (eg, close and late, close and an opposing ace) and who’s at bat (eg, a weak hitter) and on base.
“Everyone thinks a 35 homer 100 rbi is just gonna fall in our lap……”
No, I think most people here realize that you get what you pay for and vice versa — that you have to give value in order to get value.
But they also want Wren to get first what the Braves truly NEED, before going after something that would only be “nice to have”.
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
10:23 pm
Leave the Brave’s Blog for a month or so and come back to hystria.
Because we were holding hands and singing Disney Sing-A-Longs when you left?
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
10:26 pm
jason
I think Lowe makes too much money in the Braves eyes to just close. And earlier, I stated I kinda half way wished we would trade 2 of 3 guys (Lowe, KK or Javy) to give Medlen his shot. BUT, you know with pitching staff’s, Medlen will probably get his shot sooner than later.
I will also be watching closely the spring perfomance of JoJo. I might be the only blogger who hasn’t given up on him yet. Been called a lot of bad names for it too.
Random (as Trailboss Gil Favor)
October 29th, 2009
10:28 pm
Head ‘em up! Move ‘em out!!
Rawhide!!!
(Later.)
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
10:29 pm
jeffrey
I think we are more often (at least during the season, when Paul the dip sheeyt is around) in hysteria than all happy and stuff. Would you agree?
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
10:31 pm
Hey Random, if you are still hooked up. Adding a piece or two that are good basics guys can be catchy on a club. Nothing scientific or anything, but a certain style of playing can be contagious. Not disagreeing though with any of the points you made.
Braveheart
October 29th, 2009
10:32 pm
Jair’s 3.15 ERA over the last two seasons is the 9th best ERA in baseball, behind only Lincecum, Greinke, Santana, Halladay, Wainwright, Felix, Lee, Sabathia. And of those 9 best ERA guys over the last two seasons, Jair’s ERA is 52 points below his FIP, but Felix’s ERA is 47 points below his FIP, Wainwright’s ERA is 51 points below his FIP, Johan’s ERA is 82 points below his FIP.
Wow
October 29th, 2009
10:32 pm
“Second, all keylargo was saying is Jurrjens is no sure thing, and if the opportunity comes up to trade JJ for a player like Braun, he’d do it (I would too).”
Well, neither is Heyward or Hanson (more less so than Jurrjens) So how about the Braves trade one of them for a Braun like player? Since, neither are sure things.
And where is this Ryan Braun stuff coming from anyway? The Brewers aren’t trading him, even for Jurrjens.
Random (as Trailboss Gil Favor)
October 29th, 2009
10:32 pm
But I was replaced as Trailboss one episode and took over as Ramrod, bumping Rowdy out of it.
Boy, was he sore!
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
10:36 pm
Again I’ll say it…Fox has this game ending at 10:30. It’s 10:34 and we’re in the 7th inning of a two to one game!!
What are they expecting? A perfect game and a one hitter (that one hit obviously being a homerun)?
Soph
October 29th, 2009
10:36 pm
Boooooo.
jason
October 29th, 2009
10:37 pm
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD), Have not talked to you guys in a while. I agree on JoJo. I think as long as he is a Brave he will struugle, but the minute he is traded he will blossom into a 3/4 rotation guy. He shows the talent and the pitches. He just needs command and consistencey.
As for Lowe, I agree he makes way to much to close, but he was actually our worst starter this past year, and his first with ATL.
I know Javy is the most sensible trade piece. I also know MLB is a buissness. I hate the fact of seeing Javy go, because #1, He like Huddy wants to be here. #2 He has great stuff all the way down to mentral make up. Javy has pitched on some bad teams in his career. #3, as D.O.B said, he has been instrumental in JJ’s growth as a pitcher this year.
Is there a way we can trade KK to Seattle?
McFann, how’s it going? Taking my lumps with DAWGS in football season.
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
10:37 pm
three to one game now. But still.
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
10:38 pm
Wayne – I could agree to that.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
10:38 pm
Wayne, dude, I’m not mad. If you’ve learned nothing from all of this time we’ve been on this thing is that your buttons are way too easy to push, mine are not. You really get validation from this place, I just hang out and enjoy the conversation and sometimes learn things.
Luv you guys but I don’t take this place or myself that seriously. I seriously believe what I say, but I accept that some will not be smart enough to understand
I find all of this funny.To really consider trading JJ. WOW. If I’m mad you’ll know. One clue, there will be no “…lol’s!” in what I say. I was trying to keep it all in good humor. I wonder if you weren’t trying to arouse some anger, if so shame on you.
I’ve feel that I have made my case, some buy it, others don’t. That’s how it goes here. I’ve called no names, though I’ve laughed off the names I’ve been called. So save the “touched a nerve ” stuff for someone else please I know your playbook chief..lol!
I’ve laughed this entire time, really. It’s been fun and funny. Stop trying to start something..oh gosh…you aren’t gonna accuses me of calling you a racist or offending your political views now are you. Oh noes…..
Bobby
October 29th, 2009
10:40 pm
ugaaccountant-Where do you come up with the comment “The money would have basically worked to sign Tex and forego signing Lowe, if we had went with one of our rookies instead of Lowe.”? Tex took home $25M in 2009, $10M more than Lowe. That does not work or line up!
Random (as Trailboss Gil Favor)
October 29th, 2009
10:41 pm
Wayne in Utah (October 29th, 2009 10:31 pm): “Hey, if you are still hooked up. Adding a piece or two that are good basics guys can be catchy on a club. Nothing scientific or anything, but a certain style of playing can be contagious.”
Could be. Could very well be.
But it’s hard to make an impact (”be contagious”) if you’re not starting. And there’s only one starter’s position open for 2010 (we’ve both been assuming that the Braves would re-sign LaRoche).
So unless, the power-hitting, RH, slugging corner OF the Braves get is also speedy with “good basics”, a massive turnover of the ML roster would be required.
“Not disagreeing though with any of the points you made.”
Thanks, but we’d still be cool if you did. Gus.
Out.
Soph
October 29th, 2009
10:44 pm
Wait, was that the right call to end the inning? I missed it.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
10:45 pm
I don’t know kirk, you were just sort of sounding a bit like a dick there for a while. (feelings are not hurt here, notice I am not LOL) You seemed to be the one getting your teets in a wringer over the converstations we were having.
So, we can ask whoever it was to not lump us together, since you seem to know me so well…….
Give me a break.
Andrew
October 29th, 2009
10:49 pm
wow 2 innings for MO
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
10:51 pm
If the Yankees win, it increases the odds of a longer series, so I guess this is good. Though it is hard to see Tex get that homer. That whole speech he gave when he signed kinda turned my stomach.
Soph
October 29th, 2009
10:51 pm
And, nope it wasn’t the correct call. What else is new though?
nolie
October 29th, 2009
10:51 pm
ramrod/trailboss/foreman/…all the same more or less.Great series 217 episodes most of which were titled “Incident of…” Mr Purple People Eater Sheb Wooley appeared in about half of them…but without his alien friend or any purple people either. First three seasons are out on DVD, don’t know if the rest will make it or not.
chip off the ol block
October 29th, 2009
10:53 pm
wow DOB if anybody could start up a conversation that will last for over 9 pages its you haha
hardly anyone thought of the JJ situation and now everyone is talking about it, even though nothin is gonna happen
brent a.
October 29th, 2009
10:54 pm
Okay, if Howard thought he caught that ball on the fly, then he would’ve just stepped on first, rather than throwing the ball to second.
But, the umpire, Joe Buck, and Tim McCarver all seem to have whiffed on this reality.
Andrew
October 29th, 2009
10:54 pm
here comes stinktoriono
Andrew
October 29th, 2009
10:55 pm
followed by chase butley
Andrew
October 29th, 2009
10:55 pm
in the hole jason worthless
Soph
October 29th, 2009
10:56 pm
DOB -
I’m sure you saw the college hoops preseason rankings.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
10:56 pm
BALLBAME!!! SERIES !!!! Yanks win the WS. We can all stop watching!!!
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:00 pm
Did we dismiss the Nelson Cruz rumor/discussion? My greatest fear is that in the end, Kris Medlen will be pitching next year for somebody else, and that would be a shame.
keylargo
October 29th, 2009
11:04 pm
Would you really trade Jurrjens?
4:58 pm October 28, 2009, by David O’Brien
Hey WOW Do you know what the blog is titled?
N8
October 29th, 2009
11:05 pm
Just another reason for replay in MLB. The umpires have been frickin’ dreadful throughout the entire post-season. Pathetic.
That being said, McCarver is right. Why weren’t the runners on the move there?
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:06 pm
key
How’s the weather down your way?? Getting a bit wintry out this way. No global warming in the forseeable future.
RHR
October 29th, 2009
11:07 pm
UGH. Stupid halloween candy. Are the phillies still losing? I have a RHoA reunion to watch.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
11:08 pm
My greatest fear is that in the end, Kris Medlen will be pitching next year for somebody else(Wayne)
Really? That’s your greatest fear about the Braves? Hmmm.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:09 pm
N8
Is it just me, or does it seem to be that the umpiring and refereeing in baseball and basketball (I don’t watch enough football to have an opinion there) getting worse, or are we just getting some much air time that their errors are being just now exposed.
Could be some truth to the Tim Donaghy ascertions.
Soph
October 29th, 2009
11:09 pm
Are the phillies still losing?
Yes.
I have a RHoA reunion to watch.
No, no, no. Please tell me you’re kidding, RHR.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
11:10 pm
Yes Wayne I asked KC not to lump us together. I think he believed you and I were arguing the same position. You apparently got upset. So I’m sorry if you were offended ok. I apologize that offended you.
I like you Wayne, I respect what you have to say. But we disagree on some things and you should really not take it personally or try to make it personal.
So I’m a “dick” huh? Aren’t you the Potty Mouth Police? How many times have you asked someone to watch their language? Tisk tisk .Wow, I’ve been called an ignorant slut and a dick too all because I believe JJ is an ace already and the thought of trading him is not wise.
But I’m the one upset. Ok.
Rivera is the indispensable Yankee, no disrespect to Jeter but Rivera is awesome.
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
11:11 pm
What’s RHoA?
Soph
October 29th, 2009
11:12 pm
Real Housewives of Atlanta. The most annoying women on tv.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:13 pm
My greatest fear about the Braves??? Hmm.
I guess my greatest fear is that in about 2-3 years from now, a lot of folks might be saying, “Wayne, you were right all along about Bobby Cox! He really wasn’t as bad as we thought!”
Second greatest fear is that Jason Heyward becomes the next Brad Komminsh/George Lombard/Andy Marte.
Third greatest fear is that Kris “My Little Pony” Medlen will be dealt to another club. (I still am having a hard time getting over the loss of Brent Lillibridge!!!)
mr baseball
October 29th, 2009
11:13 pm
Did anyone in the Fox production truck inform Dumb and Dumber on the air that the reason Manuel did not have Rollins & Victorino stealing was that he was concerned that if Utley struck out, they would both be safe and Howard would be walked intentionally.
The likelihood that Utley was going to strike out was at least as great as that of a GIDP, probably much more likely. Guess the two overpaid “experts” in the broadcast booth couldn’t figure that out.
Tonight’s question: which has been worse, the post-season umpiring or the announcing?
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
11:13 pm
According to Wikipedia
RhoA is part of a larger family of related proteins
brent a.
October 29th, 2009
11:15 pm
mr baseball . . . unfortunately, the World Series announcing has been bad ever since Tim McCarver became the color commentator.
In reality, I don’t think Buck is terrible, but I think he may dumb himself down as to not offend McCarver
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:16 pm
kirk
You make a lot of assumptions about me that are far from the truth…..I was just wondering why you were so edgy tonight. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you have not upset me tonight. I do think you are being a bit of a …..well, I will watch my potty mouth.
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
11:16 pm
Real Housewives of Atlanta. The most annoying women on tv.
Oh ok. I think I’d rather watch the proteins.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:18 pm
So kirk, go ahead and stomp around and try to push my buttons, it aint working tonight.
keylargo
October 29th, 2009
11:20 pm
Wayne
Nothing has changed yet. We had one day in the 70’s and the rest in the 80 and 90’s. We had 12 days in a row of 90+ at the start of………………………OCTOBER!
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:20 pm
I am waiting for the “Real Housewives of Riverton, Wyoming” to be launched. That’s when I will start watching something other than baseball, basketball, or Fox News/Businss.
mr baseball
October 29th, 2009
11:21 pm
How many more calls can these umps get wrong? This is getting embarrassing, but as long as Boob Selig is the commish, booth replays are out of the question.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:21 pm
key
Sorry about that! Well, I am glad to know that you are taking one for the team!!!
Soph
October 29th, 2009
11:22 pm
Oh ok. I think I’d rather watch the proteins.
Good call.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:22 pm
mr baseball
I quit watching about 2 innings ago. Kinda glad I did.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:23 pm
RHR
When are you going to get a gig on that RHofA show? Then, I would watch it!
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:26 pm
key
Where in the Keys are you?? About 5 years ago, I spent a couple of days in Key West after getting off a Eastern Caribbean cruise (we didn’t want to just get off the boat, hop on an airplane and fly home).
Loved the weather. It was August, and hot as heck. Nice and humid, just the way I like it when I am on vacation. What got me was all the wild chickens roaming around. Interesting story behind that one.
keylargo
October 29th, 2009
11:30 pm
Wayne
I’ve been down here so long I take the weather for granted. Usually I don’t even think about it until I see the snow piled up on the sidelines of football games. It does have its’drawbacks though. I post one when I remember one or two.
Andrew
October 29th, 2009
11:36 pm
Kawakami for Pat Burrell ..whos with me…hes due for a bounce back season
keylargo
October 29th, 2009
11:37 pm
I’m in Key West too Wayne. I lived in Key Largo when I first moved to the Keys,but moved on down all the way to Key West to get away from the weekend Miami crowd in the Upper Keys.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:42 pm
key
Great place to live. If I ever get down that way again…..
keylargo
October 29th, 2009
11:44 pm
Let me know when you’re coming.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:44 pm
kirk
I tried going back to figure out where we went south tonight. If I misunderstood, I do apologize. Life is to danged short to get into it with a friend over nothing.
Have a good night.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
11:46 pm
With this economy, it might be later versus sooner! Same goes if you ever head out “west”.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
11:49 pm
Very true Wayne. Here’s to a great offseason and not letting disagreements get personal.
Andrew, KK for Burrell, I don’t think so. You might find someone to agree, give it time…lol!
I’d do KK for Crawford, but I know that’s not going to happen, but I wonder if the Braves could make that trade. Crawford is an upgrade in power and speed.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 29th, 2009
11:51 pm
Gonna call it a night…..dang I am torn on who I hope wins the Series. It would be nice if I actually liked one of the teams…..
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
11:55 pm
That was a terrible call on strike 3 to Howard. But Mo’s going to get some of those. He’s earned ‘em. Still, terrible call.
And a worse call on the Utley “out” call at first base on the double play. He was safe. Of course, Victorino was about 8 feet from the base on the slide at second, with no chance of touching the bag, so the Yanks could rightfully argue it should’ve been a DP right there anyway.
Phillies did what they needed to do, win one in NY….
Bill, I’ve got a Harley Street Bob and a Triumph Bonneville. I don’t know how much you want to spend, so I can’t tell you what to buy. I mean, you got $15,000 to spend? $18,000? Or maybe $8,000? Makes a difference, obviously….
MZ: Don’t have the Mac anymore, so not even sure I can do Itunes on the new PC. Haven’t gotten to that yet. That’s why I bought a second Ipod and downloaded 2300 songs on it before I turned in the Mac (I already had one Ipod with 1250 songs, so I’m all set with the Ipods)….
Soph: Yes, saw the rankings. But knew that was coming. They were No. 1 in every preview magazine and every other poll I saw since last season ended. Scares me to be consensus No. 1, because so rarely does that team end up winning in football or basketball, it seems. But UNC did it last year, and Florida has in football, so we’ll see….
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 29th, 2009
11:56 pm
I would go for Crawford. I know a lot of folks on here want the masher, but if we had Crawfish instead, then McLouth moves down in the order. I wonder how he would do in the 4? Maybe somebody could talk Chipper into taking the 4 spot. We have a couple of guys that maybe would be successful at the 3…..Escobar, Prado or maybe McLouth.
Just kinda brainstorming here, but Crawford, McLouth, Prado, Chipper, Escobar, McCann, Diaz and LaRoche???
Am I all wet??
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 29th, 2009
11:59 pm
DOB
Used to love to ride….but about 30 years ago, it became painfully obvious that it was riding, or divorce. I bought a Jeep instead. Now, I prefer 4 wheels under my azz.
David O'Brien
October 30th, 2009
12:02 am
Don’t forget the Nelson Cruz matter, folks. It did and does make some sense.
By the way, here’s what I got from our notes network guy in Texas, when asked about potential free agents, non-tenders and possible trade pieces. He said this regarding trades:
Might consider trading OF Nelson Cruz in the right deal to allow them to move Josh Hamilton to right and retain Byrd as their center fielder. Cruz had 33 homers, but is not one of manager Ron Washington’s favorites for his streakiness and number of bad at-bats…. Would certainly consider trading an extra catcher (Salty, Taylor Teagarden or Max Ramirez).
Bad Scooter
October 30th, 2009
12:03 am
Eric in Albany, NY…where about in Albany are you? I go to school here, this is my third year here. Not exactly the place you’d find another Braves fan.
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
12:04 am
DOB,
when was the last time a team was in the series that had two starting pitchers that were not on the roster in july?
David O'Brien
October 30th, 2009
12:04 am
Wayne: Why anyone would prefer four wheels to two is beyond me. Unless it’s very cold or raining, in which case, four wheels and a roof are good.
MZ
October 30th, 2009
12:05 am
DOB —–
It really shouldn’t matter if you’ve got a Mac or PC … if you put the disc into a PC, you should still be able to play the mp3s via Windows Media Player or whatever your media player of choice is … once you put it in the computer, just open whatever media player you use, and the track list ought to show up for you …
but, you can download iTunes for PC … it would take a few extra steps, but it’d be worth it
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
12:10 am
pedro pitched great.
the dude had a bunny hole pitch all game.
the changeup went down all night.
cliff lee and pedro.
so who of all the super mensa types would of thought those two guys would of started for the phillies in this postseason?
David O'Brien
October 30th, 2009
12:12 am
uga-brave: it is pretty wild, isn’t it, that Cliff Lee and Pedro started first two World Series games for the defending Series champs. Two pitchers who weren’t on the roster at the All-Star break.
nolie
October 30th, 2009
12:15 am
yup, ol’ DOB’ll be riding a trike in another dozen years or so, eventually with an oxygen bottle like that dude on Sons. Never give up the wheels!!
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
12:15 am
DOB,
we talk about pitching on this blog.
we might have the best 1-5 but who would be the shutdown guy?
nobody has ever brought up then none of our starters are southpaws.
nolie
October 30th, 2009
12:20 am
nobody has ever brought up then none of our starters are southpaws (Uga)
it’s been talked over several times, you musta missed it. Maybe Minor will provide that within a year or so
jMAN
October 30th, 2009
12:21 am
Speaking of the Dodgers… Offer me Kemp, Ethier, Loney, and Kershaw and we’ll talk about Jurrjens… or the Brewers… Gimme Gallardo & Braun and we’ll go from there… In other words Jurrjens aint goin’ nowhere.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
12:21 am
Dave
When I go down the road with my top down on my jeep, I am lovin it. Also, others see me a bit better than they see you guys on bikes.
Like I said, I used to ride the two-wheeler, but it became a fear issue with the missus. I just decided that it wasn’t worth it to put her through that. 32+ years later, I made the right choice.
Cruz doesn’t have very good splits away from Texas. Short of getting a better leadoff hitter, I still haven’t heard anyone tell me why Matt Diaz would be worse than Nate McLouth in the leadoff slot.
Diaz, McLouth, Prado, Chipper, Escobar, McCann, Cruz and LaRoche anyone?
I think I have heard some say that Nate thrived in the 2 slot in Pittsburgh in the early going.
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
12:24 am
so now it is time for king cole.
well maybe all those innings he pitched last year might bite the phills.
saw it with kerry wood, saw it with mark prior.
so in a game with the nationals bobby cox takes out hanson.
hanson might of finished.
so all you numbletards ever thought bobby might of been protecting that arm?
mark prior threw close to 230 innings two years out of college.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
12:26 am
nolie/uga
I still haven’t given up on JoJo yet. Wouldn’t it be great if the dude started to put it together in the next year? He has some great stuff, and has thrown some very good games, but then he goes to heck about half the time.
Assuming we keep all these guys, with Medlen, Reyes, Minor, Campillo and Buddy (assuming we invite them back on a minor league contract) in the wings, I wouldn’t be afraid to deal two of our arms. Preferrably Lowe and KK.
But I am a realist, and know that probably wouldn’t happen unless one of the young guys showed well later in the season.
Then again, we could have 2-3 blowouts during the season, and be glad we have the backup. I do remember 2008!
MitchC
October 30th, 2009
12:27 am
I posted my opinion last night, but I think the comment got erased and the site crashed or something, so, since its not here, I’ll post it again, and hope it gets posted this time.
No, I would not trade Jurrjens. He is one of the top two cornerstones of our pitching future, along with of course Tommy Hanson. Both guys are young, have incredible potential, and can possibly anchor this pitching staff for years to come.
Since I know you want us to stick to just this question, and not to post who I would trade, I’ll do just that. Anyone who has read my posts here since we’ve been discussing the Braves pitching situation, knows excatly what I think, and who we should trade. If anyone asked me if we should trade JJ, my answer is an infatic, No way!
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
12:27 am
nolie,
gotta hunch he was signable.
but if he is a decent southpaw i hope he has a changeup like jimmy key.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
12:28 am
uga
Haven’t you heard? Bobby is an old has been. He don’t know anything about managing. The game has passed him by….
nolie
October 30th, 2009
12:29 am
I think I have heard some say that Nate thrived in the 2 slot in Pittsburgh in the early going. (Wayne)
his numbers in the first 3 slots are all pretty much the same 260/350. he has a higher S% in the 2 slot but the PAs are small enough to mean little more than coincidence. I like him leading off better than anyone else we now have.
Matt did well leading off but 49PAs are hardly enough to mean anything.Though he has a much better BA his career OBP isn’t much different than McL’s and Louth has more speed.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
12:31 am
MitchC
Hey, don’t let a blog title stop you from talking about anything you want. If you want to talk religion or politics, some might get upset, but I promise I won’t tell a soul.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
12:35 am
nolie
I wasn’t even breaking down Matty’s numbers in the leadoff spot, just looking at his overall game. McLouth has more power, so I was trying to figure out if there would be a good alternate lineup.
I think Diaz stole 12 of 17 bases this year, though I am not hung up on steals like some are. If you have a horse, you let him run. Otherwise, dance with the one that brung ya.
What I really wish is that Chipper would be open to dropping down to the cleanup slot. We have 3-4 guys who could hit 3rd, but CJ is our biggest power threat (if 2009 was an aberration?).
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
12:36 am
dob,
wayne you asked me when we were coming out to utah.
dude i love alta.
it is not a snowboard mountain.
our group has shrinked. in order to make our finances meet we took on a couple of snowboarders.
so vail. cant snowboard in alta.
vail was always my home base anyways. china bowl, sundown bowl.
wildwood, love that mountain.
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
12:39 am
pretty sure pedro did not buy that blazer at brooks brothers.
nolie
October 30th, 2009
12:45 am
think Diaz stole 12 of 17 bases this year, though I am not hung up on steals like some are. If you have a horse, you let him run (Wayne)
statistically 12 of 17 is about break even in the steals dept, Louth has an extremely good success rate. Nate’s stats are the worst in the 3 slot of the first three, but again not a large enough sample size to prove anything. I have no trouble with Matt towards the rear of the order since I prefer to have decent OBP all through the lineup. As you say Louth probably has a bit more power but his S% is the worst in the 3 slot, perhaps trying to hard to hit for power? I just don’t see anything wrong with Louth and Prado opening the first.
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
12:57 am
nolie,
in the off season, kelly was to become utley.
francoeur was supposed to become something.
well jason werth became what we all thought he would become.
well jeff, when you are playing golf this year at sugarloaf, look at jason werth.
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
1:03 am
braves got better when kelly was gone, the braves got better when francoeur was gone.
look at the record after july 1st.
insert a thug in the four hole we would of caught colorado.
Jarryd
October 30th, 2009
1:21 am
DOB, I know you are a fan of The Office, if you haven’t checked out the Subtle Sexuality Webisodes, you should definitely do that, in order.
Jay212033
October 30th, 2009
1:31 am
How about Lowe, Medlen and Cody Johnson for Carl Crawford?
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
1:32 am
uga
Hey, Colorado is beautiful, as you know. We have some other spots that are combo for boarders and skiers too!
Too bad. When you do come out this way, we will have to hook up for a few minutes. It is always a hoot to put a name and face together. People are NEVER what you have pictured in your mind…..
I have a lady that I deal with 3-4 times a week in our HQ customer service. About 3 years ago, we finally met, and have become fast friends since. Sometimes it doesn’t work out though…
Any good stock tips.
One time, I asked a travel agent how to save money at Disneyland. She said to stay less days!
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
1:34 am
I don’t know Jay, being a prospect hugger, I really don’t want to get rid of our kids too easily. But Crawford is a tempting bat to have.
Did you check out my “Crawford” lineup a bit earlier?
Matt the Brave
October 30th, 2009
1:41 am
I have no idea why in the world the Braves would want to trade JJ. I mean, honestly. Try to trade Lowe or Kawakami before mortgaging the next few years on one bat. I think Jurrjens will end up winning a Cy Young here sooner rather than later.
Here’s how I personally see our rotation next year. Could be wrong, but it’ll be interesting:
Jurrjens, Hudson, Hanson, Vazquez, Kawakami/Medlen/any other minor leaguer who doesn’t end up in the bullpen… that’s pretty solid, but I’d like to see at least one lefty…
DOB, who do you see the Braves trying to make a move for? Or do they trade one of the pitchers for a bunch of minor leaguers and try to sign a bat in this non-existent market?
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
1:53 am
wayne,
would love to hook up.
loved park city, but like i said my trip is got to include snowboarders this year.
not a snowboarder but we got to split the rent.
so it aint the original trip, but MLK weekend i hope to see powder.
johnbama
October 30th, 2009
1:55 am
Couple of things I have read from DOB and the real DOB. I agree should Hudson sign, witch sounds good and hopefully happens but we all know how that went last year, Lowe is the guy to trade. More than likely you eat contract or you deal him to a team with the same type of player contract wise to swap….Carlos Lee, Adam Dunn etc. If not Javy becomes the bait. I think the Bravos are better off keeping him and offering him an extension that honestly I think he would accept and going forward with a Javy Hudson Hanson JJJ rotation but we so need a big bat and above that we so need a game changer on the bases. See the Phillies. Utley Rollins Werth Victorino can all run. Something we are missing greatly. DOB, the real DOB, Cruz, maybe not that crazy of an idea but why not Hamilton. Yes injury risk he is. Drug issues in the past or based on this year still somewhat in the picture have taken toll on a crazy set of skills. With how there team is however and the guys now making decisions and stressing pitching I cant help but wonder if Hamilton may not be an option as well as a risk worth taking. Also, friend of mine was a M Byrd friend in high school and still keeps touch with him. He has four teams on his list of teams he would like to go to (he is a free agent) and although he was somewhat of a bust in Philly and Turner is much different than the launching pad in Arlington could be an attractive add for the Braves as a left fielder. As for Kansas, DOB, you guys are loaded. As a Bama fan I could only hope for that bunch of players. You deserve the preseason billing, as much as those polls are bogus and mean nothing, so just relax and enjoy another 30 win year and deep run in the NCAA
mr baseball
October 30th, 2009
1:55 am
uga:
After further review, I’m not sure the Braves need a “thug” in the cleanup spot.
Considering the Braves had offensive black holes at 2B, RF and CF for much of the season (and LF didn’t produce a whole lot either), the team numbers for ‘09 aren’t that bad, except of course for stolen bases.
The Braves’ run differential (+90) trailed only the Dodgers and Phillies and was just ahead of the Cards & Rockies. Instead of creating a possible hole in the rotation in an effort to trade for a Dunn/Cruz/Dye type, why not just re-sign LaRoche and find an affordable bat to play LF until Heyward is ready.
Possible lineup:
Diaz
Prado
McLouth
McCann
Chipper
Escobar
LaRoche
LF or RF TBD
If Chipper can still hit well enough to hold down the third spot, McLouth could bat either 5th or 1st, depending on how Diaz does at the top of the order.
The one thing Wren can’t afford to overlook in the off-season is the bullpen. Assuming that either Gonzalez or Soriano is not re-signed, Wren has to make sure he replaces the one who goes, and maybe add 1 more veteran arm, because once you get past Medlen, things are pretty bleak in the ‘pen.
Keep the 6 starters on the roster (assuming Hudson is re-signed, which I don’t necessarily think is a done deal), with Kawakami available in case something happens to one of the first 5, which will happen at some point. Better to have 1 too many starters than 1 too few.
Bay & Holliday are too expensive for the current ownership, and a potential trade involving one of the starters leaves the team vulnerable to injury, which we all can vividly remember from the recent past.
No need to do anything drastic and either damage the strength of the team or mortgage the future. Wren has made some very astute moves over the past year, and was fortunate that some of his efforts did not pan out (Peavy, Furcal, Griffey).
Hopefully, his efforts this off-season will be centered on retaining as much talent as he can afford and filling holes where needed, not swinging for the fences and re-visiting the trade for Tex.
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
1:56 am
wayne,
still a clemson fan?
if clemson wins out, could be right there in the acc.
johnbama
October 30th, 2009
2:02 am
UMMM yeah about that Clemson team….they do well when much is expected. I would not hold my breath. GT is the class and by far the class in that league. Sure meltdown vs Miami but that was a revenge game and anyone that was real could see what was happening there. Better thought is the triple option the new vogue thing in the NCAA….spread has seemed to have seen better days.
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
2:02 am
good to see you MR. BASEBALL,
always respected your opinion.
still need that big cat guy in the middle.
cant have macc there. he cant protect chipper. matchup problems.
so chipper hits close to .400 when tex hits behind.
then when a overweight catcher hits behind, .230.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
2:04 am
maybe spiller shows off here in his senior year???
could be interesting.
My youngest was born there, when I was a grad student back in 1992, so he follows them closely. I still pull for them, but baseball and basketball are my passions.
Ever been to the Kennecott Copper Mine museum in SL Valley? If you are interested in that stuff, well worth the two hours drive/visit time. I work in a closely related field, so that stuff floats my boat.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
2:05 am
later…..
johnbama
October 30th, 2009
2:08 am
MR BASEBALL….i agree in many ways with your post. closer is a huge issue 2010. i think gonzo can do it but what a great thing we waisted this year with him and soriano. i think that laroche should be a resign, deal with his hot and cold ways, but the numbers seem to be there in the end. but i do think you need to add one more big bat, left or right, in the lineup. chipper, and i am a huge HUGE fan is older, and even last year, was not the power we needed in the lineup. mac is a five type guy to me. sure piazza did it but few and far between are catchers you can plug in to the four hole because of the abuse they take and the days off. i think we are close….chip mac esco prado mcclouth is a heck of a way to start. add another, let they heywards and schaefers come when ready and hit diaz eight and then you have a lineup worth talking about.
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
2:13 am
wayne,
spiller is a stud.
the dude has more 50 yard plus runs then anyone in college football.
uga-brave
October 30th, 2009
2:13 am
wayne,
spiller is a stud.
the dude has more 50 yard plus runs then anyone in college football.
johnbama
October 30th, 2009
2:28 am
got to put ingram in that heis conversation
reagan
October 30th, 2009
5:09 am
Braveheart (or anyone) in discussing pitching stats …what does FIP stand for? SOMETHING innings pitched?
ncscoots
October 30th, 2009
6:31 am
Park adjustments rule my man. That’s for Scoots.
Oh, I’m good to go with park-adjusted stats for evaluation, never meant to imply that I wasn’t. I might be an old three-stat dinosaur, but that doesn’t mean I’m oblivious to more complex metrics, LOL.
What I tend to dislike are those fans who focus exclusively on more advanced metrics and peripheral stats (and there’s a reason they are still called “peripheral”) and then denigrate foundational stats as unimportant. That’s as bad as the fan who focuses on ERA or RBI as the be-all, end-all. It’s all of a piece, in my opinion.
Stats, regardless of the formula that produces them, are just information, and their relative importance in evaluating a player’s performance depends on contexts beyond the vacuum of just numbers side-by-side. Many folks here sometimes forget that there is no Golden Stat that can reduce the evaluation of a player to a simple binary equation. I try not to do that.
In other words, I try to park-adjust my evaluations, LOL. Because in trying to evaluate a player’s statistical information, context is still the most important stat.
Random
October 30th, 2009
7:39 am
DOB (October 29th, 2009 11:55 pm): “Of course, Victorino was about 8 feet from the base on the slide at second, with no chance of touching the bag, so the Yanks could rightfully argue it should’ve been a DP right there anyway.”
You nailed it — my thoughts exactly.
DOB (October 30th, 2009 12:02 am): “Don’t forget the Nelson Cruz matter, folks. It did and does make some sense.”
Wouldn’t you see Medlen as the centerpiece in a trade for Cruz as opposed to, say, Lowe?
(Sorry, Gus.)
CB
October 30th, 2009
7:48 am
scoots,I think I am the one who started the conversation yesterday about ERA,it is correct that we should be using all stats to get to the final picture of any player. I get a little irritated with the know it all of a few on this blog who use all the sabernetics and act like everybody who doesn’t agree with their point of view are idiots.TO use one or two stats and to overlook the rest does not make your argument a winning one.That being said,I still think ERA with a starter is a good indicator of the type of season a starter had.
Random
October 30th, 2009
8:00 am
reagan (October 30th, 2009 5:09 am): “Braveheart (or anyone) in discussing pitching stats …what does FIP stand for? SOMETHING innings pitched?”
“Fielding Independent” something or other — intended to neutralize the variable effects of good or bad fielding on a pitcher’s performance statistics.
Random
October 30th, 2009
8:06 am
From Baseball Prospectus:
FIP: Tom Tango’s Fielding Independent Pitching. FIP is a measure of all those things for which a pitcher is specifically responsible. The formula is (HR*13+(BB+HBP-IBB)*3-K*2)/IP, plus a league-specific factor (usually around 3.2) to round out the number to an equivalent ERA number. FIP helps you understand how well a pitcher pitched, regardless of how well his fielders fielded.
eyeball kid
October 30th, 2009
8:29 am
N8,
Where are you man? After reading the blue highlights regarding Minor having the 5th best secondary pitch (whatever), I thought you’d chime in with brillant backup since we have both defended his selection. You are the voice of reason and clarity in which I place full confidence.
CJ
October 30th, 2009
8:30 am
My problem is that many people on this board vigorously support a player that they like (Jurrjens in this thread) and refuse to consider that there are warning signs that he has been pitching a little over his head a little. It’s like they are plugging their ears and singing “la la la la laaaaa”.
In judging a player I use ALL stats, including the new sabermetric stats. Ignoring either one of the sets of stats is silly. In the past I was one of the ones who thought JJ was a young ace, etc. However when confronted with the same stats that I have been presenting here I had to agree. Until his peripheral stats are more in line with his primary stats I will not call him an ace. He is still very young and if he can decrease his walks and increase his strikeouts he very well could become an ace.
To answer the question of whether I would trade JJ. Absolutely, Yes! But only IF offered the right package of players for him. However, since that is unlikely I am very happy to keep him as an Atlanta Brave for a long, long time.
reagan
October 30th, 2009
8:31 am
Random……..Thanks! Now I know. I dare say that THAT is a stat that not many know about.
David O'Brien
October 30th, 2009
8:33 am
Just noticed this from a Gammons column last week on ESPN.com:
There can never be enough Charlie Manuel. Did you know he was such a good high school basketball player that Dean Smith once came to his house to recruit him? “I’ll never forget that,” Manuel says.
Then there are all his stories of great players who were teammates and those he managed or coached. “I had Kirby Puckett in the minors and always said he was my favorite all-time player,” Manuel says. “Until I met Chase Utley. There’s no one like him. Greatest team player I’ve ever met.”
David O'Brien
October 30th, 2009
8:36 am
eyeball kid: For the record, it’s Minor’s very good changeup, not his “whatever,” that was rated the fifth-best secondary (non-fastball) pitch among all pitchers taken in this year’s draft.
It’s the reason some scouts have compared him to Cole Hamels — and by that they mean just in the type of pitcher some project him to be if he keeps developing. Lefty with a pretty good fastball and really good changeup.
David O'Brien
October 30th, 2009
8:46 am
Nolie: It’ll be a lot more than a dozen years before I’m on a three-wheel Harley. I ain’t that old, bro. (But I did notice in the just-arrived issue of HOG, the mag they send to Harley ownership group members, there’s a thing on Dave Grohl and his fleet of bikes, which includes a trike.)
ugaaccountant
October 30th, 2009
8:49 am
ugaaccountant-Where do you come up with the comment “The money would have basically worked to sign Tex and forego signing Lowe, if we had went with one of our rookies instead of Lowe.”? Tex took home $25M in 2009, $10M more than Lowe. That does not work or line up!
We wouldn’t have needed Kotchman/Laroche, which was about 6 mil this year and will be 8-9 mil the next 3. It would certainly have put a ton of our budget into one guy, but I’d rather have used Tex + Morton than Lowe + Laroche.
Obviously if Tex got hurt we’d be screwed, but basically the same deal with Lowe. A 15 million guy injured would hurt a lot too.
eyeball kid
October 30th, 2009
8:50 am
DOB,
I wasn’t saying “whatever” in the throwaway tone it came off. My bad. I just got frustrated with bloggers who dismissed his talent. It’s boilermaker season so I haven’t been keeping up with the blog lately. Been in Canada the past 3 weeks. You should check out the “Methadone Actors”.
Art
October 30th, 2009
9:26 am
Lowe is the one that needs to be traded. Yes Gary Matthews would be a good choice but he is left handed and the Braves need a right handed batter like a Corey Hart. So make a Lowe Hart trade
ugaaccountant
October 30th, 2009
9:29 am
I think it’s funny how people get so worked up about the slightest variation in assessment of players.
I said yesterday that we had 4 #1 pitchers. Of those 4, I happen to think Hanson is an “ace”, Vasquez was certainly an “ace” last year, Jurrjens is close, and Hudson is wildly underrated in comparisson but still is probably a 200 game winner before he retires. Those are all great pitchers to have or to trade if need be.
I just happen to be a fan that sees the game as primarily entertainment and hypothetically would rather watch Ryan Braun everyday than Jurrjens every 5th day. Doesn’t mean I think Jurrjens will have a 4 era next year or anything like that.
Also thanks all for the Avery stats. I knew there was a reason I thought he was so great as a kid. I hate that his arm gave out on him as he could have been a 4th cy younger on our squad with those kind of stats.
TnBrian
October 30th, 2009
9:32 am
I was reading one of the Rangers sites & came across one of their writers answering a fans question on Cruz. He mentioned they might trade him if Byrd is resigned, but also said Cruz could be used off the bench. The bench, a guy who hits 33 HR’s off the bench? Either they see something we don’t about him or he’s hated in Texas because that’s weird. Hey, we’ll take him off their hands.
Joseph G
October 30th, 2009
9:46 am
TnBrian: I think Cruz would be perfect but what would we have to give up? I’m sure Texas would want a good package. Texas is for sale so they wouldn’t take Lowe in any package. We all know they want/need pitching. Medlen would have to be included, but with who?
CJ
October 30th, 2009
9:51 am
Well said, UGA…I couldn’t agree more.
Rich W
October 30th, 2009
9:52 am
Does anyone know why Mike Minor only pitched one inning as a starter yesterday for the Saguaros in the AZ Fall League? Injured?
McFann Ô
October 30th, 2009
9:58 am
Jason–
It’s going pretty well on my end. How ’bout you? Sorry about the Dogs…I mean, as sorry as a GT fan cann be.
Daslied
October 30th, 2009
10:01 am
Gary Matthews, Jr. is not a good choice for anything, unless you were trying to figure out who’s the son of Gary Matthews, Sr.
ugaaccountant
October 30th, 2009
10:07 am
cj – thanks
Rich w – someone yesterday said it was rain delay or rain out
Jeff R
October 30th, 2009
10:13 am
We don’t know that Medlen has to be included in Texas deal, and Wren, I believe, will have to move Lowe for budget reasons. Re-upping Hudson made it so. He could move Kawakami, but he wouldn’t realize the dollars savings from doing so, and Kawakami would probably need to be packaged in order to command a better than average power bat.
I would suspect that Wren will first shop Lowe to see if he can strike a deal before considering moving other players.
Gibby
October 30th, 2009
10:17 am
I would love for Cruz to come to Atlanta. I could not figure out how or why he would be on the bench and David Murphy in the starting lineup for days. I remember one stretch when Cruz had three straight multi-hit games with a couple HR and then Washington benched him for the next three games. I was one that thought coach was crazy to think Texas would trade him last off season. Now though he is my first choice.
Bobby
October 30th, 2009
10:17 am
ugaaccountant-I still do not agree with your numbers. You said, “We wouldn’t have needed Kotchman/Laroche, which was about 6 mil this year and will be 8-9 mil the next 3.” First of all, Kotchman/LaRoche cost $4.35M. So when you add them to Lowe and compare to Tex/Morton, there is still a $6.05M difference for 2009. How does that wash? Your “will be 8-9 mil the next 3″ comment about 1B is way off in my opinion as well. Of course, we will know that answer soon. I just expected more accuracy with numbers from someone with accountant in their name.
Rock On......
October 30th, 2009
10:28 am
I haven’t missed my trike since I was about 4….lived in the duplex that is now part of the Margaret Mitchell museum on Peachtree and my mom thought it was too dangerous and close to the street. Come to think of it I do miss my trike. Might be time to get a “big boy” trike.
I would not trade Vazquez, Jurrjens, or Hanson for anybody except Pujols or Howard but then we wouldn’t be able to carry their contracts so what would it matter. Don’t mess with the top of the rotation. The game of baseball is always about pitching #1, always has been-always will be IMO.
Gibby
October 30th, 2009
10:32 am
I could see Lowe being a part of a trade to Texas. In my opinion, Lowe has more value than most on this blog are giving him. There is so little good pitching available this year which to me helps the Braves ability to trade him and not eat as much or any of his contract. I admit I am not as knowledgeable as some on this blog but Lowe has a history of good performance in the past. I think there will be a few teams that think they can put him back to previous levels.
Rock On......
October 30th, 2009
10:34 am
I would love a lot of players to come to Atlanta but not at the expense of losing a top pitcher.
If Hudson is extended I have no problem losing a KK or Lowe but to find out we got a Fielder-type player for Jurrjens or Vazquez would be a huge mistake. Sign LaRoche and keep the rotation strong.
P. W. Hjort
October 30th, 2009
10:36 am
kirkinga,
I’m not going to call anyone names or anything, but I think you’re wrong about JJ. There’s a lot of evidence that suggests he’s not capable of sustaining his ERA. Not saying he won’t, but he’ll probably have to get a lot better fundamentally to do so.
DOB/Eyeball,
I think Andy Pettitte is a good comp for Minor.
ugaaccountant
October 30th, 2009
10:37 am
The Braves could have offered him 4 years 21.5 per. That’s an offer that had a good chance at being accepted based on everything he said about Atlanta.
4 years of Lowe = 60M
4 years at 1b = 4.35 + 8 + 8 + 8 = 28.35M
Total = 88.35M
4 years of Tex at 21.5M = 86 M
4 years of Morton = 400k, 500k, 600k, replace with a new rookie 400k = 2M
Total = 88M
I was taking a guess on Kotchman/Laroche last year, however it’s been pretty consistent on the blog that Laroche is looking at a 3 year 24+ contract. I assume we’ll give it to him, or another 1b equaly or more expensive.
We also don’t know all the variables. Perhaps Tex signs with Atlanta for 20-22 million a year, if we had offered it at the right time. We’ll never know all the facts, but in general Atlanta always seems able to sign their own “local” guys cheaper than they would on the open market.
I never ready anything about a serious competitive 20 million dollar offer being considered for tex. For instance, we read the other day that Illya Kovalchuk had a 100 million dollar contract offer from the thrashers, wheras the braves never publicly put such an offer out to Tex.
KC
October 30th, 2009
10:38 am
CJ, I watch all Braves games, and I saw every start Jurrjens made this year, and I probably only missed one or two last year. In addition to having watched him pitch with my own eyes, I’m very familiar with his stats (including K/BB, even though I don’t give a damn about that stat). No one’s ignoring anything. We just don’t agree with your supposed “warning signs”.
I’m not saying that his ERA won’t go up next year, because it’s pretty difficult to LOWER it from 2.60. But he was an ACE this year, and I’m confident he will remain so next year.
This is the point in a conversation where I normally offer a friendly wager (if you’re in the Atlanta area). But I doubt we’d be able to agree the criteria by which we’d measure the winner… since you don’t believe in the importance of ERA, innings pitched, quality starts, WHIP, or HR’s allowed.
P. W. Hjort
October 30th, 2009
10:39 am
Rich W,
Someone told me weather delay. I’m not sure though. If it was anything out of the ordinary we would have heard about it so I’m not concerned and I doubt it’s an injury.
Jeff R
October 30th, 2009
10:40 am
What is anyone thoughts of re-aquiring Salty if Wren opts not to pursue LaRoche (a mistake in my book)?
In moving Salty in the ill-fated Super Tex deal, the chatter was that he wasn’t first baseman material and, in any event, he was more valuable as a catcher.
Well, ol’ Salty hasn’t exactly lit up the AL, so, as DOB reported, he might be gettable if Wren pursues Cruz.
How about Salty at first? Contract isn’t an issue with him, nor is cost. Bat may come around. And Wren could move him (I assume) when Freeman is ready.
CB
October 30th, 2009
10:40 am
Random,I got your Grandpa McCoy for you
. In the future you be more respectful of your elders, or I revert to my Bruce Lee training on your rear. 
ugaaccountant
October 30th, 2009
10:40 am
Also, I may be an accountant, but I’m not employed by the braves so I don’t know the exact salaries and contract status of every player in MLB or even on the Braves. I use approximate numbers or numbers I read here on the blog.
Jeff R
October 30th, 2009
10:42 am
Rock ON…
“I would not trade Vazquez, Jurrjens, or Hanson for anybody except Pujols or Howard but then we wouldn’t be able to carry their contracts so what would it matter. Don’t mess with the top of the rotation. The game of baseball is always about pitching #1, always has been-always will be IMO.”
Amen!
ugaaccountant
October 30th, 2009
10:42 am
Salty would cost more than I would want to pay for him now. David Ross is a perfect backup catcher. Salty is not a starting 1b for a club intending to compete in the playoffs. And Salty would cost us more in prospects than I’m willing to pay for a backup 1b.
Lew
October 30th, 2009
10:43 am
Mr. Baseball-Once we get past Medlen in the pen things look pretty bleak? What gives you this idea? Did you perhaps forget about Moylan and O’Flaherty? We admittedly need to do some work on the pen-in particular find a closer-but pretty bleak? Not nearly.
DOB-Good call on the four wheel type of vehicle being better for driving in the snow. Lots of people ride bikes of all kinds up here, but not much in the winter. Lots of other vehicles with less than 4 wheels, though in the winter- We have something here you’ll never see in Georgia-Snow Mobile Crossing signs.
Lew
October 30th, 2009
10:44 am
Well, there’s a lot of moose crossing signs, too, but never saw one of them on any wheels. They are the size of an SUV, though.
Jeff R
October 30th, 2009
10:46 am
Don’t want to misquote DOB… He didn’t suggest:
“…he might be gettable if Wren pursues Cruz.”
He wrote that Texas might be willing to move one of its catchers. Unrelated to anything Wren is or isn’t considering.
I meant to write that if Wren has an interest in Cruz, what about pursuing Salty, too, to play first base.
Jeff R
October 30th, 2009
10:48 am
ugaaccountant… Still think Salty’s price tag is that high? I don’t think he’s shown much with the Rangers.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
10:48 am
ugaaccountant
Tex? Water under the bridge my friend.
CB
October 30th, 2009
10:53 am
To make statements that any player is untradeable is foolish. We know the quality of our pitching,but the game of baseball is played on two sides-offense and defense. The Braves are capable of being a very good team next year with a strong cleanup hitter next year to balance this lineup. It will not happen unless Wren makes a bold move by free agency or trade. Xavier Nady types will not make it happen.
Lew
October 30th, 2009
10:57 am
Why exactly, would we want Salty back? Just because he can play first, too? Dude has never played more than half a season, has two of three seasons with an OBP of UNDER.300 and two years of Slg% in the high 3’s. He’s never hit more than 9HR and that’s playing in hitter’s central down there in Texas. Maybe it’s time to face facts that he was way over prized when he was traded for the Tex rental. Maybe we didn’t lose as much in that trade as so many seem to think.
Maybe he will imporve with more regular play, but he won’t get it in Atlanta as a catcher and he isn’t a very good first baseman-expecially after the D we’ve seen from Tex, Kotchman and LaRoche.
MZ
October 30th, 2009
11:01 am
DOB —–
was the CD compatible with your PC?
rammerjammer
October 30th, 2009
11:03 am
Wednesday’s Dallas Morning News said the Rangers payroll was 22nd in MLB this season. So a trade for Cruz would clearly be for a young, like-salaried pitcher and/or outfielder. For example, Medlen and maybe Brandon Jones. Maybe they’d settle for Jo-Jo and BJ.
Jeff R
October 30th, 2009
11:04 am
Lew, good points. I’d much rather Wren resign LaRoche than aquire or sign another first baseman or potential first baseman. I believe it would be a mistake not to. Yes, I know Freeman is projected to be in the bigs in 2011. But that’s not a given.
If I were Wren, I’d try to secure LaRoche’s services and worry about what to do with him when Freeman is ready (if he’s ready).
McFann Ô
October 30th, 2009
11:07 am
Lew Maybe it’s time to face facts that he was way over prized when he was traded for the Tex rental.
I faced that fact years ago.
ugaaccountant
October 30th, 2009
11:10 am
If we could trade Jones and Jo-Jo for someone with proven major league 30+ HR power, then I’d go ahead and write Wren’s name on the executive of the year trophy.
Jones appears to be a career AAA player, with Jo-Jo being the stereotypical AAAA player.
jim
October 30th, 2009
11:10 am
Someone earlier posted that Boras always takes his clients to free agency. There are at least two notable exceptions: Greg Maddux and Andruw Jones. Maddux figured he was better off pitching in a pitching friendly park in the National League in a situation where he was comfortable, than making more money in a less ideal situation. He told Boras to get the best deal within those parameters. Andruw and his father went behind Boras’s back to sign their contract when Andruw first became elligible for free agency. JJ is a level-headed man who was a Braves fan growing up and who may realize that the long-term benefits of remaining in, what is for him, a good situation may outweigh the benefit of the additional millions on top of what will be, in any case, a substantial income.
keylargo
October 30th, 2009
11:11 am
Jeff R
Just curious at what makes you think a MLB catcher can just move on over to 1B and never miss a stroke?
Daslied
October 30th, 2009
11:15 am
keylargo – that’s a blog philosophy, that we can get any guy and move him to 1st. Or LF. Or third, so we can cut Chipper.
McFann Ô
October 30th, 2009
11:17 am
Daslied that’s a blog philosophy, that we can get any guy and move him to 1st.
Or move somebody we already have to first.
Rock On......
October 30th, 2009
11:18 am
I am sure Wren is trying to secure LaRoche for a few years. We are about to find out how much LaRoche wants to be in Atlanta soon as I feel LaRoche will have to leave a couple million on the table per year to do that when his value right now appears to be at an all-time high.
Jeff R…agree with you and Lew at 11:04.
keylargo
October 30th, 2009
11:24 am
Here’s a nice list for those who look at the Braves realistically.
Pitchers who might win 15 games.
1. Vazquez
2. Lowe
3. Jurrjens
4. Hudson
5. Kawakami
6. Hanson
Outfielders who might hit 20 HR’s
1. Nate McLouth
2. Matt Diaz
It’s clear what needs to be done.
ugaaccountant
October 30th, 2009
11:26 am
I promise last post about Tex today – The overpayment in the Tex deal was never Salty or Harrison. We knew what we were giving there and had already started to understand Salty wasn’t the A+ prospect the rankings had previously said he was. Harrison was always a long-shot to have a major league impact.
We also knew that we were sacrificing a stud in Andrus. Where that trade went sour was in including Feliz. We did not get good value for him due to his young age at the time. He was the 4th piece in the deal, and I don’t believe a quality 4th piece should have been needed.
I believe the Tex trade was seen by both clubs as being primarily Andrus then Salty Harrison Feliz and throw in Jones, despite the fans being much more concerned with losing Salty. Turns out we all were underselling Feliz.
Today, what would I pay to get Salty back? Canizares and Norton is who he would replace in our depth chart, so I wouldn’t want to pay for him as a catcher. As a backup 1b I wouldn’t trade more than Canizares + Brian Barton, in other words no true prospects.
keylargo
October 30th, 2009
11:26 am
Daslied
I’ve seen that philosophy often here on the blog. It’s a BS philosophy.
P. W. Hjort
October 30th, 2009
11:27 am
It’s clear what needs to be done.
Yep. I’d love to keep the starting staff together, but the Braves don’t have a $200 million payroll and that’s just not realistic.
Lew
October 30th, 2009
11:32 am
UGAacoountant-Why would you want him as a back up first baseman? His amazing power? His awesome defense? Because he used to be a Braves’ prospect? Quite honestly, why bother?
McFann-Unfortunately, not many bloggers display your level of maturity and common sense vis a vis the Tex trade and what we gave up (or didn’t as the case may be). Many seem unable to move on. Maybe they need a Way Back machine, Peabody and Sherman.
McFann Ô
October 30th, 2009
11:37 am
Lew–
Thanks. Though I may have been a bit immature when it came to Salty.
I always felt he was a tad bit on the overrated side…
Many seem unable to move on.
Yeah…kind of a bummer, really. I mean, obviously they gave up a lot of people for a one year rental, but t coulda been worse–they coulda not signed BMac to that contract during the previous ST and traded him to Texas instead of Salty.
Daslied
October 30th, 2009
11:38 am
keylargo – agree 100%.
Jeff R
October 30th, 2009
11:38 am
keylargo…
I don’t, necessarily. I do know when catchers move, they tend to move to one of the corners. Granted, usually later in their careers.
I floated the Salty question because I’m trying to figure out what Wren could do as a stop gap if he drops LaRoche as an option.
Jim
October 30th, 2009
11:41 am
If they traded Jurjens, at least we wouldn’t have to annoyed by people calling him JJ Jurjens.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
11:44 am
Salty is a backup catcher, and a fairly good one defensively. Not a great bat, but better than Corky Miller. Does anybody really think Texas would entertain trading him for a song, when there are many clubs out there that could use a good backup catcher?
Canizares and Barton???
Let’s look at these deal proposals from both sides of the equation. Remember, and equation is an operation that is EQUAL on both sides of the sign!
ugaaccountant
October 30th, 2009
11:45 am
Lew – I would want Salty back, barely. I have Canizares on my 2010 roster. I have no idea which of the two would actually have better offensive numbers, but I feel their projections would be about the same in limited playing time.
The reason I would be willing, barely, to trade for Salty is that he’s younger and would be a 3rd catcher. I also thought he had previously played a fairly significant amount of time at 1b, but even so Canizares is a very bad defensive 1b anyway.
Like I said, I wouldn’t throw in anything of real value to get him.
ugaaccountant
October 30th, 2009
11:47 am
I don’t think we’ll get him for my proposal. I said so at 10:42
Jeff R
October 30th, 2009
11:49 am
Canizares… Really? I don’t think he has the stuff to be a major league regular. I think he’d represent a significant step down from LaRoche.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
11:50 am
(ugaaccountant) I wouldn’t throw in anything of real value to get him.
Then, you wouldn’t get him, so why have the conversation?
I would love to have Nomar Garciaparra, just in case Infante and Prado both went down to injury, but I don’t want to pay him anything or give Oakland anything for him. Do you think I can get him?
Lew
October 30th, 2009
11:51 am
ugaaccountant-Why would you want Canizares? His amazing minor league career or his five AB’s in Atlanta this season. Dude is 30 years old (at least) and still in the minors. Maybe we could start him at first and Brooks Conrad at second and move Prado to third to replace an obviously aged Chipper? Again. Whatever. I feel no need to rely on scrubs when we have pieces to make worthwhile deals.
Lew
October 30th, 2009
11:53 am
Waybe-Maybe if you traded first for Ryan Freel and then flipped him for Nomar?
Bobby
October 30th, 2009
11:56 am
Has anyone seen Brandon Jones play on a consistent bais? If so, why have the Braves not given him more of a serious look?
rammerjammer
October 30th, 2009
11:56 am
ugaaccountant,
My Jo-Jo/BJ proposal was tongue in cheek. If I’m the Rangers, I insist on Medlen and at least one other inexpensive player. But Medlen would be the guy they want, which would be a tough call for Frank. He might have the Pony penciled in the 2011 rotation.
TnBrian
October 30th, 2009
11:56 am
I was thinking the same thing about them trying to trade Lowe before going after a hitter. Could be way off there, but it would make some sense to move his salary somewhere first, especially since they’re apparantly about to reup Hudson. In a perfect scenario, Wren could trade Lowe for a prospect having the other team take his entire salary on, sign Gonzo/LaRoche & then go after Cruz, who’d also be my number one choice because he can hit for power,cheap,plays good D & he’s way more realistic than a Braun.
TnBrian
October 30th, 2009
11:59 am
rammerjammer, tough call for Wren or not on trading Medlen… Cruz is a 30 plus HR guy with speed signed cheap for the next 4 years. Have to give to receive.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
12:02 pm
Please, not Kris “My Little Pony” Medlen!!! Anything but that! I am still having a hard time getting over the loss of Lillibridge!
Lew: Sounds like a plan. Who wouldn’t want Freel?
HARRY
October 30th, 2009
12:05 pm
no trade jj, vaz, huddy,hanson or kk…. put Lowe as closer.
Lew
October 30th, 2009
12:08 pm
rammer-Maybe Wren trades both Lowe AND Kawakami and lets Medlen start in 2010. He wouldn’t be a bad #5 pitcher to my way of thinking. Freeing up almost $22 mil in salary might actually put us in the running for someone like Holliday and if not, would give us plenty of money to re-sign Roachy and get another productive bat or two. Worth a thought or two?
Lew
October 30th, 2009
12:09 pm
Salary aside, I wonder if Lowe would agree to close next year?
CJ
October 30th, 2009
12:10 pm
KC, we just differ on what we call an ACE. Sabathia, Lincecum, Santana, Greinke, etc. are pitchers I would call aces. They are all elite with elite stat lines across all categories (even the ones that some here call meaningless). They would be #1 starters on any team in baseball (unless they were on the same team of course). Vazquez is the only pitcher on the Braves who had ace-like stats last year.
And no, I don’t live anywhere near Atlanta. But, there is no bet to be made anyway. I am just saying that JJ isn’t an ace yet, not that he will never become one.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
12:12 pm
Lew
I was floating that idea yesterday about dealing 2 hurlers (Lowe and KK?) and giving Medlen, Reyes and Minor some breathing room. Medlen being my first choice.
Then your only concern is what do we do if someone goes down to injury?
I would truly love to see “My Little Pony” get his shot this year!
If I could sing like Paul McCartney and get funky like Etta James
October 30th, 2009
12:14 pm
Why is everybody thinking that we could keep Tex. He was going to the highest bidder period and the Yankees were going to be the highest bidder. The Braves would only make Tex richer by bidding for his services. The Rangers were borrowing money from MLB to make payroll. No way that they are trading for Lowe.
Lowe could very well be a good picther next year one year removed from trying to be superman in his first year of a big contract. The Rangers owe us a do over on the Tex trade. How about some prospects for Cruz that do not throw 100 miles per hour?
Random
October 30th, 2009
12:14 pm
KC (October 30th, 2009 10:38 am): “This is the point in a conversation where I normally offer a friendly wager (if you’re in the Atlanta area). But I doubt we’d be able to agree the criteria by which we’d measure the winner… “
Ahem. cough cough
Perhaps I can be of assistance here?
PS: KC – did you and I have some kind of bet going at one time? I’m sure I probably lost — what was it, do you remember? I’m willing to pay up and make good.
DAM
October 30th, 2009
12:17 pm
Lew–
I actually REALLY like your idea. I thought Medlen looked pretty good this year. He walked too many hitters, but in case no one noticed, so did a certain guy named Tommy Hanson during his first few games. I think given a few more starts, Medlen would be a fine back-of-the-rotation starter, and it definitely would free up money as you mentioned.
rammerjammer
October 30th, 2009
12:21 pm
Lew,
I wonder, too, if Medlen’s a candidate for RH closer next season. He has the tools, and didn’t he close in the minors? I think KK gave us fine value and would prefer to see him stay if Lowe goes, and the thought of the Pony teaming with Gonzo is not half bad.
Nova Scotia Steve
October 30th, 2009
12:23 pm
I’ve been reading lots of blogs lately since the Hudson deal is apparently getting close.
And I’ve read a lot…and I mean a lot of good ideas and som really poor ones.
And you can judge for yourself about what I’m going to type here…if we need a power bat to patrol our outfield and the only way to get it is to move Javier Vazquez…I think Wren should pull the trigger.
Vazquez as much as I like the guy gave us a career year playing for Atlanta and I realize he has a partial no-trade clause…and it will be interested to see what happens.
But I don’t think we can count on Heyward being a savour for us in 2010…and I think Heyward will be handled much like Hanson was in ‘09.
Start in Gwinette and if things work out bring him up mid-way through the season.
I just believe Derek Lowe will be better in 2010…and I don’t think we should give up on the guy…and its going to be a tough contract to move…and I’m okay if Lowe is our 4th starter.
or dare I say try and move Kawakami…
Let the ripping begin
VaBraveFan
October 30th, 2009
12:25 pm
HARRY
Yeah lets pay 15 million for a sinkerball pitcher to close games…. Remember Dan Kolb….. Also if this team is paying a guy 15 million he better be a starting pitcher or a everyday regular…..
Lew
October 30th, 2009
12:27 pm
Wayne-If they did goin that direction, I really don’t know who the 6th option qwould be-proably JoJO (I cringe) or Redmond (sp?), though a 4.42 ERA at Gwinnett and more than a hit per inning does not indicate readiness to me. Still-It IS the fith slot in the rotation and we do have an excellent 1-4 with Vazquez, Jurrjens, Hanson and Hudson. Maybe we could weather it if Medlen went down? How close is Minor? Anyone know?
P. W. Hjort
October 30th, 2009
12:30 pm
From ESPN Rumor Central:
The Atlanta Braves have fired Tom Battista amidst a number of changes to the club’s scouting department, ESPN Insider’s Keith Law has learned. Battista served as the club’s regional crosschecker and is responsible for the scouting and signing of right-hander Tommy Hanson. Earlier this month, GM Frank Wren replaced departed scouting director Roy Clark with special assignment scout and former Baltimore Orioles scouting director Tony DeMacio, who turned around and fired one of the most respected an successful scouts in the organization in Battista.
Battista has been instrumental in the Braves’ farm system remaining strong, and also signed right-hander Kris Medlen and first base prospect Freddie Freeman as well as Hanson, who could be named the National League Rookie of the Year next month.
DeMacio’s drafts in Baltimore were hit-and-mostly-miss, boasting Brian Roberts, Nick Markakis and Erik Bedard, but also including Chris Britton, Jim Johnson and Brandon Fahey twice.
Law has more on both Battista and DeMacio.
“I can’t imagine Battista will be out of work for long. He’s a well-respected and well-liked scout whose track record of finding value in later rounds is extremely valuable in an era when teams are focusing more resources on the Rule 4 draft. I don’t understand why DeMacio would choose to start his second stint as a scouting director – he was Baltimore’s scouting director from 1999 to 2004, and produced just one average big leaguer (Nick Markakis) with ten first-round picks) – by terminating a scout who has demonstrated his value so clearly.”
Efrim
October 30th, 2009
12:31 pm
Maybe Wren trades both Lowe AND Kawakami and lets Medlen start in 2010. He wouldn’t be a bad #5 pitcher to my way of thinking. Freeing up almost $22 mil in salary might actually put us in the running for someone like Holliday and if not, would give us plenty of money to re-sign Roachy and get another productive bat or two. Worth a thought or two?
Lew, that’s not a bad idea. But I just don’t know if Wren wants to deal so much of that pitching surplus. But it would give him more options in filling the offensive holes that this team has. And Wren seems like a GM who would surprise us and do something like that. We were all quite a bit shocked when we saw the Furcal news. Didn’t work out, but that was some out of the box thinking.
VaBraveFan
October 30th, 2009
12:32 pm
HARRY and Lew
That is a interesting thought tho, the money part doesnt make any since is the main reason.
What if the Braves tryed to restructure Lowe’s contract, instead of it being 3/45 offer him a new 4 yr 40 million deal with a 5th year option, along with incentives if he pitches cetain amoutn of innnings. He will be our closer for 10 mil a year, have the security of a longer deal , with the insurance of getting more moeny if he happens to go back into the rotation, also leaving the Braves more payrool to help the team get better…. If he is a closer he can pitch till he’s 40-42 years old. Kinda of a long shot but doesnt that sound kinda good?
Lew
October 30th, 2009
12:33 pm
rammer-Yeah, it certainly looks like there are options out there for them, even in house. What a difference it makes with all of this pitching-no matter what we paid for Lowe.
Something I’d like to mention here, too (though not in response to anything rammer has said). I realize that pitcher’s wins are not considered a telling stat any longer and after seeing the variables that went into final records for Lowe, JJ and Vazquez this year, I fully understand the tendency to somewhat disregard win totals. However, check and see how few pitchers win 15 and how many fewer do it on a regular (3 of 5 seasons) basis. Maybe it indicates more than many seem willing to believe. Yes, WHIP and K to BB rate and hits per nine may be better indicators, but winning 15 games (like Lowe has) on a regular basis is much more rare than many might believe.
Random
October 30th, 2009
12:34 pm
Lew (October 30th, 2009 11:53 am): “Waybe-Maybe if you traded first for Ryan Freel and then flipped him for Nomar?”
Lew, you slithy tove!
rammerjammer
October 30th, 2009
12:34 pm
If Jo-Jo ever starts again for the Braves, it’ll be over Bobby Cox’s dead body. That train has left the station and BC is the conductor.
Jeff R
October 30th, 2009
12:35 pm
I think if Lowe goes Kawakami stays. This on the assumption that Lowe goes for a righty power bat.
I’d be relucant to move Medlen, given the uncertainty in the bullpen. Medlen as the temperment and conpetitiveness and stuff to either set up or close. And, on the other hand, he’d make a good 4 or 5 starter, in my estimation. Think he’s a valuable pitcher.
Efrim
October 30th, 2009
12:36 pm
Can’t wait to see next years draft. Honestly, I just hope they have a bigger budget for scouting and player development. As discussed, the system needs positional player talent in the lower levels.
VaBraveFan
October 30th, 2009
12:36 pm
Lew
I agree Lowe even tho he had a off year, still pitched solid, and with the run support he got and getting his 15 wins which is what we were expecting, its seems the team played really hard for him on his starts. For JJ to only get 13 wins with a 2.60 era and Lowe to get 15 with a ERA 2 runs higher is saying somthing….
Daslied
October 30th, 2009
12:37 pm
VaBraveFan – Lowe, in his career as a reliever (1588 PA against):
2.95 ERA (4.03 as starter)
2.99 K/BB (2.14 as starter)
.652 OPS against (.702 as starter)
7.1 K/9 (5.6 as starter)
85 saves (42 in 2000)
Sinkerballer or not, he was a pretty good closer. Now, I do agree with you about the $15MM for a closer statement…
rammerjammer
October 30th, 2009
12:38 pm
OK, which Braves exec peed in Keith Law’s punch? That dude has a grudge that never rests.
Nova Scotia Steve
October 30th, 2009
12:38 pm
I just puked when I saw Dan Kolb’s name…
VaBraveFan
October 30th, 2009
12:39 pm
Jeff R
Lowe isnt gonna bring a RH power bat back in return unless there comparble contracts and it would be someone in the same boat as Lowe, big contract and only a solid year. But with so many varibles and adding players to the mix things can change, but it wont be a 1 for 1 swap and we have a new cleanup hitter.
Efrim
October 30th, 2009
12:39 pm
And by “more money for scouting and player development”, I just meant more money to spend on draft selections.
Lew
October 30th, 2009
12:39 pm
Efrim-Just floating scenarios-not that I’m that sold on doing the trade two pitchers thing. I would rather have the strength in pitching, after seeing how pitching staffs can be decimated during the grind of a season.
Personally, I think just trading Lowe would do all we need in freeing salary, but like you said-Wren does like to think out of the box, so there’s no telling what he’s got on his mind as far as specific scenarios go.
VaBravesFan-I’m more on favor of trading Lowe than handing him the closer role (IF he would accept it anyway). Again, just speculation and nothing more.
Wayne in Utah (WWFWD)
October 30th, 2009
12:40 pm
Lew
Parr, Campillo and Carlyle might be other emergency starting candidates. I realize Jorge and Buddy were re-assigned.
VaBraveFan
October 30th, 2009
12:40 pm
What do yall think of my idea about Restructuring Lowe contract???
Lew
October 30th, 2009
12:41 pm
VaBRavesFan-Trading Lowe has it’s benefits in freeing up $15 mil per year over the next 3 years-NOT in who we could receive in return, though it might be a bigger piece than you realize.