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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
2,392 comments Add your comment
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:00 pm
I have no idea how Hicks gets such a good rep and am curious what the collective wisdom is here. His full seasons worth of numbers in the minors did not support him getting a call to the AFL. Now not only is he there, he’s doing well and is near the top of their lineup. Is there some major batting tools he has that I’m not seeing, since I never see him in person?
ncscoots
October 29th, 2009
5:00 pm
This should be on MLB Trade Rumors in about 20 min.
Shoot, I might send it to ‘em myself; my evil angel is working out today.
CB
October 29th, 2009
5:00 pm
It is ok for those who disagree about ERA being the best test of a starting pitcher, I still know I am right. See,I can be just as narrow minded in my thoughts as some of our stat heads.
( This last post was dedicated to Random)
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
5:01 pm
With Hicks tearing it up in AZ, that means we can deal Escobar for a bucket of balls.
We could, but we’d be in deep doo doo!
nolie
October 29th, 2009
5:01 pm
My favorite Lowe trade is actually even more feasible than the ones posted here. Lowe for Mat Gamels, (Uga Acc)
I don’t think that is all that feasible, I find it hard to believe that the Brewers would take on his salary, and I’m pretty sure the Braves aren’t gonna eat much if any of it.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:02 pm
I can see it now, from reporter scoots (who, what?) LoL
Thats as good a source as any!
RC
October 29th, 2009
5:03 pm
“How about Freel…..he’s a Carl Crawford-lite!” -Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
More like Carl Crawford Zero
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:03 pm
Top 5 untouchable Braves:
Chipper is 10/5 so irrelevant to the discussion
1. Hanson
2. Heyward
3. McCann
4. Yuniel Bethancourt
5. Yunel Escobar
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:03 pm
ERA is a fairly good indicator of how well a pitcher has pitched, but there are some excellent starting pitchers who have ERA’s that are a bit higher. You have to look at his entire body of work, to be honest.
I would love to have a closer with a 3.50 ERA, who closes out 95% of his chances. And a starter with a 4.25 ERA and a 18-10 record, is a good thing. (unless of course, he should have been 20-8)
It’s hard to say. Good pitching is kinda like pornography. I can’t define it, but I can tell you what it is when I see it.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
5:04 pm
Ryan Freel is a injury prone utility guy with speed.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
5:06 pm
Top 5 untouchable
Hanson
Heyward
JJ
Escobar
McCann
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:06 pm
RC: Come on now, your gonna hurt my tender feelings.
ugaaccountant: Do you mean Christian Bethancourt, our low minors catcher?
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:06 pm
I don’t get why Lowe is so overpriced that nobody would take him for esentially free. Forget Gamels just Lowe for nobody. I don’t believe that nobody would sign him as a free agent for 3 years at 45 million. I feel we’ll find out because if Wren is able to trade him.
Daslied
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
P-Town Brave – why on Earth would Chipper have to defer money to help the team? (Again, I mean.) How many guys actually do that?
Bottom line – Chipper has gotten way less money over his career than a player of his stature deserved. Back up the Brinks truck for him, I say.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
Guys,
Did you read my post, only current Braves count so Heyward is irrelevant as well as UGA being smart in saying Chipper is.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
VaBravesFan
And “the world’s most interesting baseball player!”
He once ran through a left field wall….to see what was on the other side.
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
Thank you J.A. Adande…..
He’s the only person I heard on ESPN the last few days that gets it….”The Phillies are going to score runs.”
It’s almost impossible to keep that team from scoring 5 runs a game. That’s the biggest hurdle for the Yanks, and their pitching & bullpen won’t keep the Phils from doing so.
Rollins says Phils in 5. I’m thinking he’s right on.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
Yeah that’s him. I was using him to represent any of our lower minor league guys that simply should not be traded. As a franchise we have to hold onto our homegrown players.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:08 pm
Daslied-
Sorry, Mike Hampton already took off with that last year
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:09 pm
Daslied
Most true Braves fans are not begrudging Chipper his latest contract!
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:12 pm
Rumor is that Mike Hampton hired a team of 10 others, and conceived an elaborate scheme to rip the Braves off for all those millions. Their calling it “Hampton’s Eleven”.
Nobody held a gun to Schuerholz or Wren’s head when they traded for and signed Hampton and Lowe.
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
5:12 pm
ugaaccountant -
First of all, don’t put much stock into AFL numbers, especially for hitters. Not as many elite pitchers go to the AFL as elite hitters.
Secondly, a lot of his prospect stature (which largely evaporated this year) is based on what he does defensively. He also takes his walks and hits for power, but he’s got serious contact issues and won’t ever hit for a high average. The contact issues may be too much to overcome since he’s already 24, but he’s still got a lot of tools to be excited about. I don’t know. I’m skeptical, but I think there’s at least a slim chance he becomes an above-average MLB SS or 3B with both the bat and the glove.
But the Braves know what they’re doing. They wouldn’t send him to the AFL if their scouts didn’t think he’s capable of making it to MLB, which is much more important than the numbers. And he’s still very much a prospect.
Random
October 29th, 2009
5:13 pm
CB (October 29th, 2009 5:00 pm): “It is ok for those who disagree about ERA being the best test of a starting pitcher, I still know I am right. See,I can be just as narrow minded in my thoughts as some of our stat heads. ( This last post was dedicated to Random)”
Don’t leave me hangin’, dude — which one am I?
One of the diagreers? A starting pitcher? One of the narrow-minded? A stat head?
Or am I you?
Or one of your thoughts?!?
(Ooooooo — spoooooky.)
nolie
October 29th, 2009
5:14 pm
It throws pitchers off and can change a game by alot. (VaBF)
sorry I just don’t agree lotsa times a stolen base gets left hanging, and of course a caught stealing eliminates any chance of that runner scoring.
. It’s nice to have speed, but stolen bases just aren’t that important or how would we have outscored the Mets who had three times as many? Speeds help with extra base hits and defense is more important.
I like Crawford all right and if he had a long term contract I wouldn’t have said no.
Scoots is right, it’s exciting, and on an individual game basis it can be an important part of a win, but overall it’s not that pertinent.
jeffrey d
October 29th, 2009
5:16 pm
Tebow needs to change his first name if he wants an NFL career. Who every heard of any decent athlete named Timmy?
They post this vent, but I’ve had pure gold never make it through. I’m starting to think willieg or YAACA is in charge of approving vents
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
5:16 pm
Too bad Hampton ripped other teams for millions. Most of the Braves dollars were insured, while other teams were paying his contract anyway.
I don’t get the Hampton criticism here. He signed for less with Houston than he could’ve with us. He wasn’t all about the money. I feel bad for the guy. He’s had to work so hard to rehabilitate. His body just sucks.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:16 pm
Thanks P.W.H. – I’d be happy with him if he contributes at all in the majors so this is better than nothing obviously. If he is a good glove, that could be a useful 25th man for 2011.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:17 pm
PW Hjort
Years ago, a SS who could pick ‘em and hit his weight, was worth quite a bit. Hicks may eventually play a role on our team. Would love to see him get some good tutoring on hitting…..is Chipper’s dad available?
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:18 pm
Wayne-
Hampton’s Eleven…funniest thing I’ve heard all day.
He probably got his ideas from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get-rich-quick_scheme
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
5:19 pm
nolie,
I’m feeling a need for speed too. Just this week I switched from Mitchum to Speed Stick.
After seeing all the stolen bases in the post season like we see every year, I think to myself, I’ve got a need for speed.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:19 pm
BC’s
Hampton is/was a gamer. Just an unlucky son of a gun.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
5:20 pm
Is there some major batting tools he has that I’m not seeing, since I never see him in person? (Uga Acc)
no, in fact he has been old for his level and still hit .230.
He is a plus defender with a plus arm and he does possess a good bit of power. The Braves are likely giving him a chance to step up and impress them. They are weak in the infield and lost Campbell so it would be great if he can improve.I’m sure they would like to find a Chipper replacement sometime soon.
He’s got enough assets to continue to bring him along, but I am not optimistic that he will ever be more than say a Betemit, if that.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:20 pm
Bobby’s Cox-
Ok Maverick!
O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
5:21 pm
I dislike the Phillies, but I dislike the Yankees even more. Go Phills!
One good thing if the Phillies win the World Series is it will reinforce to Fank Wren just how far the Braves need to go (offensively) to overtake the Phills next year.
And with Hudson close to signing, my guess is Wren will try to trade Lowe first. If he can trade Lowe, then I think he offers Vazquez an extension. If he is unable to trade Lowe, I think Vazquez will be traded.
I can’t wait for the world series to be over so we can get the ball rolling.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
5:23 pm
nolie
Your correct about the overall outcome, but the reason i’m talking about it cause the Braves have none of that……..
Schafer and Heyward are gonna fix that but there not here and playing yet.
We got 5 guys already that will prolly hit 20 homers each. Chipper,McCann,McLouth,Escobar,LaRoche (if resigned)
Do the other things better this team has enough offense to contend. Baserunning, Defense, Productive outs, Closing out Games. As i mentioned we blew 22 gms last year. The reason i saying all of this cause the Braves wont be able to bring in a 35 homer 100+ rbi guy, without giving up Javy, Young Talent, All remaining Payroll.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
5:24 pm
But the Braves know what they’re doing. They wouldn’t send him to the AFL if their scouts didn’t think he’s capable of making it to MLB, (PWH)
or it’s an indication of just how weak the system is in higher level position players ?
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
5:26 pm
If Hicks can transform himself into a 240 hitter with 20+ HR potential, and can keep the K’s below 125 per season, he will probably play some major league SS somewhere. Lot of if’s there though….
But dang it, he’s our prospect, so we can always hope!
Can he run through walls?
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
5:28 pm
The thing about the SB is that it distracts pitchers. If you watched the 8th & 9th innings of the WS last night, obviously the SB threat helped the Phillies hitters at the plate. You don’t have to swipe a bag, but if you could get your hitters in favorable counts, seeing extra fastballs, etc…more power to you. You wanna see this Braves feeble offense score a few extra runs a game, put some speed in the lineup. We thought this team was filled with 20+ HR guys. Turns out, it wasn’t filled with any of them. You inject some speed, I guarantee you that increases the power numbers as well.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
5:29 pm
Can he run through walls? (Wayne)
nope, but he can leap over tall buildings in a single bound
CB
October 29th, 2009
5:30 pm
Random,you know you and I are the only ones on here who are always right. We allow these other guys to post for our amusement.
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:34 pm
Wayne-
So basically what you’re saying is that he’s a carbon copy of Khalil Greene?
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
5:35 pm
Bobby’s Cox
Thank you bout time someone agrees with me somewhat about the importance of speed.
Big difference between a slow hitter’s basehit and a fast players base hit. Bobble or mishandle the grounder he will be safe. Outfielder lolly gags to the ball or bobbles it on a regular single to the outfield basehit. Gapper could be a triple instead of just a routine double. Speedy Baserunner makes the pitcher not have full concetration on the batter, leading pitchers to throw more fastballs cause of the threat to steal a base. Speed helps stay out of double plays, and goiong from 1st to home on a gapper. We dont have anyone with that kind of speed.
Efrim
October 29th, 2009
5:35 pm
or it’s an indication of just how weak the system is in higher level position players ?
bingo
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
5:36 pm
*****Outfielder lolly gags to the ball or bobbles it on a regular single to the outfield turns into a runner on second.*********
MZ
October 29th, 2009
5:41 pm
DOB —
Not sure if you heard, but debut release from Them Crooked Vultures (Homme, John Paul Jones, Grohl) drops Nov. 17 … youtube “New Fang” if you haven’t heard it yet … it’s the first single
cvbraves
October 29th, 2009
5:43 pm
Haven’t seen it mentioned on the blog….but Freeman’s got his average up to .290 in the AFL. Still a bit to go (Hicks being at .323), but he’s improving.
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
5:44 pm
Does anyone know why Mike Minor left after just 1 inning?
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
5:47 pm
cvbraves -
Freeman’s got his average up to .290 in the AFL. Still a bit to go (Hicks being at .323), but he’s improving.
Meaningless small sample size.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
5:48 pm
When I read the title of the new blog I could, almost without fail, recite the names of the people who who would even entertain the thought of trading JJ. Sure enough I was right. I guess we’re all predictable to some degree or another.
Thankfully most GM’s in the league relish keeping their jobs and so have enough common sense not to trade a young, cheap starter who is already among the games’s elite pitchers and on an upward trajectory. If not striking out more people is the chief indictment against him then so be it.
The only reason why he is not a candidate for Cy Young is lack of run support. To trade JJ would be to trade Adam Wainwright…again…this time after you knew he was going to be an excellent starter!
Unless they give him a No Trade clause, the best trade bait will be Tim Hudson after they sign him. Tim Hudson at 3-4 years around $9 million would deliver a nice return and an even better package than Vasquez. Hudson likely would net the Braves a nice 3-1 deal with all at least two of those players plugging existing holes. In other words, Hudson likely returns more than just the ever elusive, “One Big Bat”, which has become this blog’s White Rabbit.
I believe the Braves are more than OBB away. They need more power, they need more speed, and if they could add a bit of grit, that would very much help as well.By grit, I’m talking someone like a Lemke, or a TP, or others who would not let the team waste so many effective starts from their pitching staff.
They need more depth in the pen given the obvious and ugly overuse of several relievers we saw this season. I think it appears that Prado is likely to be the starter at 2nd, but it still remains to be seen if he is a full-timer or a heck of a part-timer?
I think the question of how to improve the Braves goes much further than trading Javy for the OBB . That may be an easy answer to a question that is more complex.
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
5:50 pm
VaBraveFan,
The blog and the modern baseball fan will never agree. It’s been a huge debate here. The reasoning is that the SB is a potential out, a potential less chance at a 2 or 3 run homer or extra base hit. I will always disagree & will argue the threat of a SB leads to bigger rallies.
I’m old school if you will. I like playing the game by taking extra bags, and I like the watch baseball played this way too. Not only does it make the game more exciting, but it is effective or else teams would not do it in the postseason where it matters most, or in the recent, usually entertaining all-star games which now matter. They can throw all the stats they want about probabilities of scoring with runner on 1st 0 out, runner on 2nd 1 out etc…, but I still think running & moving runners over is an effective strategy.
It’s interesting to note that some managers like Charlie Manuel don’t like bunting, & never do and are effective. But, he’s definitely ok with stealing & staying out of double plays. Personally, I like and miss the execution of the hit and run. It’s one part of the game that hasn’t come back yet, but I think it will. You’re just now starting to see more emphasis on SB’s and bunting again in the game. Slower teams like the Braves should hit and run. I usually advocate that throughout the year when we get too station-to-station, especially with hitters like Prado & Escobar who can hit the ball on the ground to either side of the infield with relatively ease.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
5:52 pm
Kirkinga – there is alledgedly a rule against trading someone immediately after they sign as a free agent. I wonder though if Hudson could be traded though as he’d be signing an extension right? He’s still ours until 3 days after the World Series possibly?
Regardless, that would be a very dirty way of treating a player and it’s better in the long run not to treat people that way. Players would remember that for a long time.
P. W. Hjort
October 29th, 2009
5:53 pm
have enough common sense not to trade a young, cheap starter who is already among the games’s elite pitchers and on an upward trajectory.
There’s not a single piece of empirical evidence that he’s anything of the things you mentioned other than young and cheap. And again, if the right deal is there, you make it. No matter who it entails.
Unless they give him a No Trade clause, the best trade bait will be Tim Hudson after they sign him
Sigh.
TIMHUDSONISA10AND5ANDCAN’TBETRADEDWITHOUTHISPERMISSIONWHICHHELIKELYWON’TGIVE
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
5:55 pm
DOB, do you think Jurrjens would accept a “hometown discount?” — Bobby’s Cox.
I don’t know, is Curacao supposed to have a team before he’s a free agent?
(smile)
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:56 pm
I really believe that some of the players we currently have could steal more bases…they just don’t because of Bobby Cox ball.
If Diaz can steal bases, I don’t see any reason to believe that Prado, Escobar, and even Chipper couldn’t steal a handful.
Station-to-Station is typical Bobby ball…so like I said earlier, it doesn’t really matter who we get or have, if Bobby doesn’t wanna play hit and run with line drive and opposite field hitters or steal bases when the situations warrant it, then does it really matter who is on first?
P-Town Brave
October 29th, 2009
5:57 pm
The real question is, does anyone believe Boras would let that happen?
Rob from SC
October 29th, 2009
5:58 pm
I said this at mid season. THe Braves will find a taker for Derek Lowe. He is not horrible, we just have 5 better pitchers than him. Some team will want him
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
5:58 pm
Rob from SC: McCutchen is on the cover of Baseball America.
Anthony, the Braves are high on Medlen (I say that, and he’ll probably be traded tomorrow … just kidding). They like him in the swing role right now, being able to make spot starts and middle relief. But he could easily move into a starter role if they have an injury.
GTSteve
October 29th, 2009
5:59 pm
I would have to think about trading JJ for Utley, now I know the Phillies aren’t going to do that, I am just saying
McFann Ô
October 29th, 2009
6:00 pm
Out-of-the-blue thought here, but since Charlie Manuel’s gonna get a second chance at this All-Star Game managing gig, I really wish the thing was gonna be in Atlanta. Then we could vote BMac the starter and see if Manuel leaves him in for 8 innings for being the “Hometown Kid”.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
6:00 pm
Bobby’s Cox
I’m the same way. And the current Braves team lack power and speed. Playing ABC baseball is the way to go. Too many time’s have i seen Chipper or LaRoche stranded on deck cause of a double play. Prado, Diaz, Escobar can handle a bat and should be asked to bunt more often when the time calls. I rather have a chance to have a AB with a runner at 2nd, than choosing to swing away everytime with a runner on first.
dogsbrekky
October 29th, 2009
6:01 pm
JJ for Ryan Braun, yes I would do it
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
6:04 pm
McFann
That is messed up, McCann is Clearly the best Catcher in the NL, Molina is better on defense but the bat is no comparison….. Thats ok McFann Mac will just keep adding to the achievments under the radar. We know he is good and thats all that matters
Rob from SC
October 29th, 2009
6:05 pm
DOB
This blog is showing up on FOX.com with the headline suggesting the Braves will trade Jurrjens
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
6:07 pm
DOB,
Very funny. I still think JJ would instruct Boras to work something out with Wren for less than what he could get from another team if it came to that, assuming the Braves don’t totally suck in 3 years.
mr baseball
October 29th, 2009
6:09 pm
Why do people keep floating possible Derek Lowe trades? Other than the Braves & Mets, no teams seemed all that interested in signing him last year as a free agent. Since then, his market value has dropped a bit, but his contract remains higher than any team (other than the Braves) was willing to take on.
To my knowledge, the Braves have never made a deal in which they ate a sizeable portion of the contract of a player they were trading, which almost certainly would be required in any deal regarding Lowe. Given the current economics, why would they start now?
The Braves have a limited budget with which to improve themselves for next season. The approximately $30 million required to re-sign Hudson would be better used to add a big bat. But if he does return here, it wouldn’t be surprising to see Vazquez dealt for a big bat with an expiring contract.
Vazquez is the most marketable asset the Braves have (and are willing to consider parting with), particularly taking into account that he has only 1 year left on his contract and is reaching the age where long term deals are problematic.
Personally, I’d take him over Hudson if it came down to it, but it’s hard to imagine the Braves keeping both. They could always try to trade Kawakami, but he probably wouldn’t bring that much in return and the team would take a PR hit for dealing him.
Then again, the report about Hudson’s imminent signing might be a bit premature.
Just like last year’s acquisitions of Peavy and Burnett and Griffey and Furcal.
David O'Brien
October 29th, 2009
6:13 pm
MZ, I’m eager to hear what that sounds like. By the way, went to office today, got the replacement CD. Thanks much.
Next step, figuring out what I can play it on. (you put a bunch of MP3s on a CD, right?)
Braves Paisan
October 29th, 2009
6:15 pm
I have to say, Ryan Braun for JJ would be tough to turn down.
CB
October 29th, 2009
6:16 pm
DOB,AJC doesn’t allow you to use smileys? Are you afraid it takes away from your masculinity? Give us the truth,man.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
6:17 pm
No to JJ for Ryan Braun. The Brewers have common sense. But even if they didn’t, you don’t do a 1-1 trade for an elite starting pitcher which there’s every indication JJ is now or will become. When is the last time you saw such a trade? Does any come quickly to mind? I bet there aren’t many examples of 1-1 with young cheap elite starters.
Maybe if it was for King Albert, maybe. But I wouldn’t trade JJ for even A-Rod straight up.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
6:17 pm
Roger Craig’s SF Giants teams of the 1980’s (I lived in the Bay Area for 15 years) was not an overly fast team, but they utilized team speed to force the other team into errors. If there was any doubt, they took the extra base, made the other team make the big play to get them out. It worked well for a few years during the Will Clark, Matt Williams, Kevin Mitcell era.
kirk
Nobody is talking about dealing Jurrjens, unless the opportunity presented itself to get a hard hitting righthanded bat, who was equally young and affordable for a similar amount of time.
Somebody mentioned the Steve Avery example. You never know when a young pitcher is going to blow out his arm. Hopefully he never does, but many go through a 1-2 year period of time when they are fairly useless. Some NEVER recover.
That doesn’t mean you trade all your young pitchers before they get hurt, it just means you listen to any and all interesting offers.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
6:20 pm
Mr. Baseball – The Braves and Mets weren’t the only team interested in Lowe, we just wanted him the most. This year there is 1 less year left on Lowe’s contract, so that’s good. This year there is only 1 free agent pitcher better than Lowe, making him possibly the 2nd best available pitcher.
I have a feeling, based on it happening every single year, that at least two teams will need a proven veteran pitcher even if it requires big money to get him. We may get a better offer for Vasquez or Kawakami and go that direction, but we will get some kind of offer for Lowe. Wren will talk with all the other teams and many, many ideas will be thrown around that you and I will never be privy too.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
6:20 pm
Nobody wants AROD and that 29.1 million (TWENTY NINE MILLION) a season deal. And his Milestones bonuses where he;ll recieve and extra 10 million and crap when he breaks the all time homerun record…. he is so overrated contract wise.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
6:21 pm
So kirk, you wouldn’t deal JJ straight up for Ryan Braun??? I am glad you are not the GM.
Like you said, this deal probably never happens, but I would do it so fast, it would make you dizzy trying to keep up….
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
6:22 pm
Kirkinga – Braun is a significantly better trade idea than Arod. Look at their stats this year, their ages, and especially their contracts.
Wayne in Utah (WWJJD)
October 29th, 2009
6:22 pm
gotta run…….later.
Bobby's Cox
October 29th, 2009
6:24 pm
Mr. Baseball,
I disagree. The market for Lowe last year wasn’t a good market. You had a much larger FA pool last year that diminished a guy like Lowe. That there are no FA starting pitchers this year may make a team pick up all of Lowe’s contract because where else can teams find starting pitching help? There are few teams in baseball that have excess starting pitching and are willing to unload it. Besides Lackey, Lowe could be the other hot item this winter.
And, I also disagree that Lowe’s value was lowered after this season. Braveheart and DOB posted here about the year Lowe had. He actually had more quality starts than Vazquez or something like that this year. It’s just his 6-8 bad starts were worse & they inflated his ERA, etc… Lowe was a little hittable this year than most, but he can still be marketed as a dependable starter who pitches great in big games. Like Boras does all the time, Wren can highlight Lowe’s strengths and milk his value. I think there will be a taker for Lowe, salary & all because of the soft market this year for FA pitchers.
VaBraveFan
October 29th, 2009
6:25 pm
If AROD makes 29.1 million a year Pujols a better player than him and Pujols only makes around 16 mil a year…….. Pujols will commmand around 30+ million a year easily.
Braves Paisan
October 29th, 2009
6:25 pm
I am jazzed about this Braves outfield: Braun, McLouth, and Heyward. Youth, power, and speed.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
6:27 pm
PJ Does anyone know why Mike Minor left after just 1 inning?
No worries. The game was postponed due to weather.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
6:31 pm
How long is this “weather” injury? Is it career threatening? Should we begin shopping now for a new #4 starter for 2012?
CJ
October 29th, 2009
6:31 pm
DOB, resolve the debate. Is Jair Jurrjens an ace with Cy Young ability. Or is he merely a very good young pitcher with decent (but not great) peripherals who is signed cheaply for the next four years.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
6:32 pm
Well gee folks, if you are keen to imagine circummstances that could arise that would cause the Braves to trade JJ, then you would agree that the same rationale would apply to Hanson as well, no?
And NO, I would not do a 1-1 JJ for Braun, I would only do it it if there was another useful piece included by the Brewers. Young, cheap, elite-near elite starters are the rarest commodities in baseball, not young, elite LF’s.. Therefore you get another piece.
The same would apply for Carl Crawford as well, who likely will be available this offseason.
I see no one has answered my question. Name me a trade where a team traded a known young and cheap very good starter straight up in a 1-1 deal.
So Tommy Hanson for Ryan Bruan is doable then?
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
6:33 pm
uh..I meant..circumstances….
CJ
October 29th, 2009
6:36 pm
Kirk, No, Tommy Hanson IS a future ace. You don’t trade him for anyone – including Ryan Braun. But the Braves would be completely mad and out of their minds not to trade JJ for Braun.
CJ
October 29th, 2009
6:37 pm
Again, I can say that I do not think the Braves trade JJ at all. But, to sit here and say that you won’t trade him for some of the best young hitters in baseball is nuts. He is good, but not that good.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
6:44 pm
kirkinga – Hanson for Braun isn’t nearly as good a deal. He is cheaper by a year and controlled by the team for an extra year, a whole extra year pre arbitration is why we waited until June to call him up in the first place. He also isn’t a Boras client, raising his likelihood of signing an extension for a more reasonable amount. Then in most scouts opinions, Hanson has better pitches than JJ, meaning he is more likely to continue his excellent performance. His stats to date have backed up scouts opinions, wheras JJJ has significantly exceed scouts opinions.
And also pretty importantly, Hanson is simply more popular and fun to watch than Jurrjens. I know this blog seems to say JJJ is really popular, but I know I get invited to the most Hanson games, then Vasquez games, and then Jurrjens. People really enjoy going to see Hanson pitch. It’s like in the 90’s when people loved to see Maddux or Smoltz, and Glavine was fine too, but because he was third choice the casual fans rarely got excited for his starts. I don’t know how many extra tickets any of these guys sell, but a person with tons of time on their hands could probably figure out a formula that would spit out a dollar figure for the increased attendance.
Wren would still have to consider getting Braun if the deal was Hanson, but it’s a much less lucrative scenario.
ncgary
October 29th, 2009
6:45 pm
braun and hart for jjj diaz and freeman sure
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
6:45 pm
Kirk, No, Tommy Hanson IS a future ace. You don’t trade him for anyone – including Ryan Braun
HAHAHA!
Oh, I see, so all the stuff about possible injury and all that only applies to JJ, the guy who has been outstanding for a bit over 2 season now?
With Hanson we get shifting rationales. We can’t trade him because in his near 3/4’s season we’ve anointed him our “future ace”! Ah, I see now.
So present aces we trade, future aces we don’t. Um, ok, I think I have it now. I’m not even going to try and delve into why you would have different standards for players who are both starters and young and outstanding. It boogles the mind.
Truly, utterly, absurd.
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
6:49 pm
No, Hanson is an ace now. His numbers already support the label.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
6:50 pm
agrees with me somewhat about the importance of speed. (VaBF)
I didn’t disagree about speed, I disagreed about the importance of stolen bases, which is one of those particulars that separate the old style stat fan from the newer ones. old fashioned fans place a lot of importance on them, most saber-guys don’t. if you run a correlation you find that it has only a small correlation with winning.as i said earlier, speed itself is a valuable asset as long as you aren’t trading some other important asset to get it. doesn’t help at all if it can’t get on base for instance
CJ
October 29th, 2009
6:51 pm
Kirk, Jair Jurrjens is not an ACE…….and continuing to call him that is “truly, utterly, absurd”. Tommy Hanson is strikeout pitcher with excellent peripherals. Prior to his call-up he was one of the top prospects in major league baseball. JJ is a finesse pitcher with decent peripherals. He was never considered a top ten prospect. And the ONLY people who think that JJ is an an ace are Atlanta Brave homers.
JJ for Braun is a HUGE win for the Braves. But the Brewers wouldn’t even remotely consider it – they would laugh at the thought of it.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
6:52 pm
nless they give him a No Trade clause, the best trade bait will be Tim Hudson after they sign him. Tim Hudson at 3-4 years around $9 million would deliver a nice return and an even better package than Vasquez. (Kirk)
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
6:54 pm
Hanson for Braun isn’t nearly as good a deal. He is cheaper by a year and controlled by the team for an extra year, a whole extra year pre arbitration is why we waited until June to call him up in the first place…..And also pretty importantly, Hanson is simply more popular and fun to watch than Jurrjens…..
Wow, just wow!
So now it’s about cheap, and who we like to watch more? Really?
I can’t believe you typed that for all to see…lol!
The answer is you don’t trade either one. They are building blocks. Smart teams identify and keep those players that have distinguished themselves as foundational. Only a handful of teams trade away such players and only because the owners care more about profit than winning.
But having a double standard with JJ and Hanson is sad and really casts the person trying to explain that double standard in a bad light.
Eric In Albany N.Y.
October 29th, 2009
6:58 pm
This is so stupid. the only reason to trade a pitcher like jiar is to free up payroll. JJ has a very afordable contract and is a corner stone to the pitching staff. the only reason to trade derek or javy or even KK is to drop them from the payroll. open and shut case JJ Stays cus he isnt even close to his prime and is cheap.
Why are we talking about this?
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
7:00 pm
I’ll go ahead and say it Kirkinga – The Braves are a mid-market team under liberty media. We have serious payroll limitations, so yes it is of vital importance not to make wrong moves regarding players in their rookie scale salaries. JJJ is much closer to big money than Hanson is, therefore he has less value to the team.
Secondly, this is a freaking game. It’s entertainment. If we have the best team in the game, and nobody shows up to watch then what does it matter?
ugaaccountant
October 29th, 2009
7:01 pm
Kirkinga – How does it cast a bad light on me to have different standards for players with different ability levels and contract status? If you can’t see significant differences in the two players, then I’m done talking with you.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
7:02 pm
Why are we talking about this? Eric
so all the homers can say that there is nobody in baseball worth trading him for ?
CJ
October 29th, 2009
7:03 pm
Kirk, Name ONE other pitcher who most consider to be an ace who had fewer strikeouts than JJ (152) last year. For the record, he finished in 36th place in strikeouts even though he pitched 215 innings (16th highest in the league). Name ONE other pitcher who most would consider to be an ace who has a worse K/BB rate than he does. As I said, he is a very good pitcher but aces are typically high strikeout guys with great peripherals. Will the Braves trade him? No. But would they trade him if the Brewers would offer Ryan Braun for him? Yes, of course they would.
kirkinga
October 29th, 2009
7:03 pm
nolie, I know that, but I’d trade Hudson (if it was at all possible) before I traded Vasquez. The reason being I believe Hudson’s track record and payroll friendly contract would bring a better return.
To all the “JJ isn’t an ace, but Hanson is crowd”, shame on you all. DOB and others, gave you the freakin numbers..across the board, pick a state.. and how he compares to some starters that are consensus “aces”, and he holds up quite well.
And y’all know full well when it was his turn in the rotation you felt real good about the Braves’ chances that game despite the opposing starter. That is because JJ is an ace. I think Hanson will be one too, but I need to see more and I need to see how that elbow withstands that delivery before I fully buy in. But right now, I would trade neither one.
nolie
October 29th, 2009
7:06 pm
nolie, I know that, but I’d trade Hudson (if it was at all possible) before I traded Vasquez. The reason being I believe Hudson’s track record and payroll friendly contract would bring a better return. (Kirk)
I knew what you were thinking, and actually if he never goes to free agency i think they could legally trade him, but i’m willing to bet that they wouldn’t even if they could.