2:03 am October 22, 2009, by David O'Brien
October 26th, 20091:25 pm
No, it’s not stupid. However, to suggest a player who hit .308/.373/.647 with 66 HR, 158 RBI, and 134 R was more valuable than a player who hit .299/.470/.752 with 70 HR, 147 RBI, and 130 R–no matter how inferior or superior the teams were–is stupid. P.W.H
And you wonder why someone points out that you’re a kid? It’s nothing personal. But you lack perspective on the evolving opinion about baseball stats and the differing views that some have as to the unclear meaning of “MVP” in the MVP award.
P. W. Hjort
October 26th, 20091:41 pm
But you lack perspective on the evolving opinion about baseball stats and the differing views that some have as to the unclear meaning of “MVP” in the MVP award.
People used to think the world was flat. Is it important that I view the world through their perspective? I guess it is for history’s sake, but as far as searching for the truth is concerned, it is certainly not. They were misinformed individuals, those that thought the world was flat. Why is it so important that I remember a time when the MVP award was given to that individual with “that look in his eyes”? Because, as accepted as it may have been, it wasn’t right.
Even if I had “perspective”, my opinion would be the same. Similarly, I’ll probably look back and 10 years and, as the wealth of baseball knowledge increases, say that a lot of the things I thought were stupid. Just because someone doesn’t know any better doesn’t make them right in retrospect. That’s just the way it is.
October 26th, 20091:48 pm
Is there a full moon today/tonight? Because it appears that all the idiots are out in full force.
The person who should be most angry from the 1998 MVP results, is Moises Alou. He finished 3rd behind the two juicers.
October 26th, 20091:49 pm
Just because someone doesn’t know any better doesn’t make them right in retrospect. That’s just the way it is.– P.W.H
October 26th, 20091:50 pm
Sportswriters were god damn stupid in 1998
That’s funny coming from someone who was probably still wearing underoos in 1998.
October 26th, 20091:58 pm
If Peanut Butter & Jelly had a vote in 1998, he would have Crayola’d in McGwire’s name.
October 26th, 20092:01 pm
Fisher-Price: My First MVP Vote
Oh hey, did you all hear about Tebow hiding from the media Saturday night?
October 26th, 20092:02 pm
Oh hey, did you all hear about Tebow hiding from the media Saturday night? (RHR)
Peanut Butter & Jelly wants to know why Tebow was hiding from stupid people
October 26th, 20092:04 pm
N8 – the full moon isn’t until Saturday. Just in time for the cocktail party.
Ozzie Smith is one of the best fielders ever and was a great player, just not Hall of Fame great.
Wow. Just…wow. I must admit, the thought that Ozzie Smith is not “Hall Of Fame” great is a concept that I had not previously considered. Gotta give that one a little thought.
October 26th, 20092:05 pm
This is like watching your parents fight.
Preacher Roe – the Fisher Price joke was almost funny. The PB&J thing? Not so much, especially when used ad nauseum.
October 26th, 20092:09 pm
I didn’t realize until after I said it that someone else already mentioned how young PWH was in 1998. Not gonna dog pile the kid, he’s a good guy, just condescending as hell and, might possibly turn in to Paul Lentz in 20 years if he continues on the current path of self righteousness. He’ll never be as socially ignorant as Lentz but that know it all attitude has got to go. Only old people get to act like they know everything, kid, leave that stuff to nolie.
October 26th, 20092:13 pm
Daslied, I apologize to you. Now go back to your position of anonymous irrelevance on the blog.
October 26th, 20092:14 pm
<sarcasm on>I think that MLB should spend a fortune developing an “mvp” stat. Then, whoever scores the highest in that stat would win the mvp award. Don’t rely on those stoopid sportswriters.<sarcasm off>
October 26th, 20092:15 pm
Dang y’all, give PWH a break!
October 26th, 20092:18 pm
Preacher Roe – thanks!
drive by blogger
October 26th, 20092:19 pm
I didn’t realize that MVP stood for Most Valuable Batter. I thought it was an award given to the Player deemed to be Most Valuable overall to his respective team.
I guess I didn’t know any better in retrospect. My bad…
LEW — I’ve been around, just on the quiet side. Mostly multi-taking.. playing guitar with the computer in front of me and a an old movie on TCM waiting for FW to reel in a cleanup hitter. My computer divides its time between this blog and ebay with Huffpost when things are slow.
October 26th, 20092:20 pm
I see you’re point about Soria, but really there’s no need to worry about his health. If it had been his elbow barking, I 100% agree with you, he’d be destined to miss a full year in TJ surgery. But his shoulder isn’t a major issue. He pitched in 47 games, thats respectable had 30 saves, and an ERA of 2.21.
I mean Trey Hillman(royals manager) is as stupid as it gets when managing a bulpen. Soria had a 8 games where he had to go more than an inning, and pitched the next day. Rafael Soriano had two games in which he pitched for more than an inning, and that was when he pitched the 8th inning.
Who is riskier health wise, Soriano or Soria?(Soriano is only healthy on contract years)
And I don’t want the Braves to trade Kenshin, but look at the facts. It needs to be either him or Lowe. Who in the world wants a 37 year old pitcher who had a down year and is under contract for the next 3 seasons at 15 mill/per year.
Hudson deal any closer?
October 26th, 20092:22 pm
Tomas, there are plenty over teams that want a 15 win 200 inning thrower, just not at the age of 37 and $45mil. Braves can move Lowe, it just depends on how much they’ll have to cover of that contract
October 26th, 20092:23 pm
Only old people get to act like they know everything, kid, leave that stuff to nolie.
Ah, come on, I do that at least as well as nolie, don’t I?!?
I think some folks might be forgetting that each of us suffered the curse of youth at some point (that is, it’s wasted on the young). Or maybe forgetting the youthful attitude that probably went along with the age, at least. Heck, you think I was the same civil, gracious, humble guy in my 20s, LOL? I think NOT!
October 26th, 20092:27 pm
The year Sosa won the MVP he deserved it. Sosa and big Mac had very similar years, with one key difference, Sosa’s team made the playoffs. Normally that is a deciding factor. Also Sosa had 18 stolen bases, Mcgwire only had 1. Sosa drove in 158 runs. Apart from homers and OBP, Sosa has the edge.
October 26th, 20092:31 pm
Chris Coghlan deserved the NL rookie of the year. The guy was a hitting machine, and got on base a lot. He also hit a lot of doubles. I see an argument for Happ too, but Coghlan was key to the maarlins season in 2009.
October 26th, 20092:32 pm
As much as I hate the Stankees, I think the patience of their hitters is going to make Lidge the weak link for the philthies. In my opinion, not from stats – just from watching him pitch last couple of years, Lidge relies a lot on swinging strikes compared to called strikes. Hitters he will face now are very patient, will make him throw strikes and induce mistakes that can be hit.
October 26th, 20092:37 pm
oh definitely, scoots, you’re older than nolie, right?
(”old dudettes” revenge)
October 26th, 20092:40 pm
Mark Sanchez eats a hot dog on the sideline during a TV timeout.
October 26th, 20092:41 pm
RHR, actually, I think nolie has a couple of years on me, but, we’re both of an age, I think. Certainly, old enough to remember wasted youth and how bleepin’ much fun it was to waste it, LOL.
Not that you would know, of course. Still radiant in the morning of the life, you are, “dudette” notwithstanding.
October 26th, 20092:42 pm
At least it wasn’t popcorn.
October 26th, 20092:44 pm
Or a kitten.
October 26th, 20092:45 pm
If this is morning I’m not sure I’ll survive afternoon, much less evening.
October 26th, 20092:53 pm
i agree with PWHjort about the MVP thing, but condescending is a good description.
i dont have to go back to ‘98 to find an MVP award (or other awards) that i disagree with. folks are going to have alot of different opinions about that kind of thing. there isnt always one right answer. for instance, there are still folk who probably think that a player who gets his team to the playoffs is more valuable than a player who has better stats, but doesnt get his team to the playoffs. thats a matter of opinion…
October 26th, 20092:55 pm
Shoot, it’s the journey that’s fun, not the destination, LOL.
October 26th, 20092:58 pm
how’s the weather down there in atlanta?
October 26th, 20093:10 pm
I would have voted for the Marlins rookie too. But maybe they took into account the fact that Happ’s team made the playoffs and the marlins didnt. Which probably made a difference when Sosa won the MVP over big Mac.
October 26th, 20093:16 pm
I feel like ESPN.com should send you a check for this article on their baseball homepage, as they clearly got their info from reading your blog.
In all seriousness, thanks for keeping us so informed and putting up with all of us.
October 26th, 20093:17 pm
Man, I hate this. But I have to root for the Yankees. Either that or an asteroid to hit both teams.
October 26th, 20093:25 pm
Of the asteroid could just hit whatever stadium they’re playing in Wednesday night.
I’m for the yankees too, I like mo and CC and … well, they’re not the phillies.
October 26th, 20093:27 pm
Of = Or
October 26th, 20093:33 pm
October 26th, 20093:34 pm
Anybody out there who likes the NFL have any interest in their favorite team trading for Larry Johnson?
What a douche.
October 26th, 20093:38 pm
Tomas, others: Happ won the Players Choice NL rookie award. The award that’s recognized as “the” rookie award is the one presented by the BBWAA, and that’ll be presented next month. I, too, think Coghlan should win.
October 26th, 20093:39 pm
Tomas (October 26th, 2009 2:20 pm) –
I agree with you that Soria is good enough to go after, but I’m afraid he’s too good for the Royals to let go of.
“And I don’t want the Braves to trade Kenshin, but look at the facts. It needs to be either him or Lowe.”
Or Vazquez if the Braves cannot sign him to a decent extension.
Mark Maguire was on base 47% of the time, and still had less runs than Sosa. To me, that shows just how f’n valuable he was to his team. His team was obviously nowhere near as good as Sosa’s because Mark was on base dang near half of the time and they couldn’t even use that to their advantage. If Mark didn’t get it done for them, it wasn’t likely to get done.
I will say I understand Sosa getting it though given the filter of the time. Back then the stats most discussed were the triple crown of HR/RBI’s/AVG. So 2 out of 3 went to Sosa between he and McGwire.
I find the MVP award to be completely mislabled. In baseball it should be renamed MOBOAPT – Most outstanding batter on a playoff team. Same for the Heisman or MOQB/RBOABCSPT – Most outstanding quarterback or running back on a BCS partcipating team.
Bay Area Steve
October 26th, 20093:41 pm
Can you ban this N8 imposter?
Two posts, four lines. Most assuredly an imposter, right?
Can the Braves negotiate with Kelly and sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal at about 2M a season? That would be ideal for all parties I would think. Take some pressure off him and be an extremely attractively priced backup or trade bait?
October 26th, 20093:42 pm
I feel the time to get Soria, and Greinke for that matter, was last year. There was talk of Francouer being a key part of a trade for one of them if i’m not mistaken. Man Greinke would have been great for us.
October 26th, 20093:44 pm
By taking pressure off KJ, i mean it would give him 6 million guaranteed, but give him 3 years to either become a starter or become a good utility player.
October 26th, 20093:45 pm
RHR, Dr. Steve,
shoot me the two dimes, and I’ll take care of it.
I will not stand for any criticism of the Geico lizard. Knock the cavemen, or those ridiculous eyeball commercials, but the lizard is must-see tv. As you are to McCann, I am to that beautiful gecko.
October 26th, 20093:46 pm
BAS, naw. It’s me. I’m just spending my afternoon on the Chief’s message boards bashing the coach bashing homophobe Larry Johnson. You know? The one with a 2.7 yards per carry average?
My first post (lineup?) was mocking somebody a few posts up asking if there was any news on Hudson. Just thought it was funny (maybe they were being sarcastic?), and reminded me of the panic attacks for a lineup at 2:00 everyday during the season.
LJ is less than 100 yards away from breaking Priest Holmes team rushing record. With all this nonsense, and can’t see any way that Scott Pioli or Clark Hunt let him hold ANY records in the Chiefs recordbooks.
Dude’s gotta go. Hopefully, they just deactivate him (give him his damn money), that way he can’t sign anywhere else. The T.O. precedent should allow them to do so.
But make no mistake. It’s me. LOL
October 26th, 20093:53 pm
What did LJ do? Some kind of incident, or just having a 2.7 ypc?
October 26th, 20093:59 pm
he just called out his manager on twitter
October 26th, 20094:00 pm
manager, HA, meant head coach….was thinking baseball after all the other post
October 26th, 20094:02 pm
haha, LJ uses twitter. I’m not too versed on that team, and if he might be right, but that’s life in modern pro sports. Some athletes simply don’t respect coaches anymore.
October 26th, 20094:05 pm
He called out his coach for never playing football in the NFL. Stating that his dad (who coaches for Penn State), played for the “guy who was in Remember the Titans”, and my coach played golf. My dad played for the Redskins. My coach? Nothin?
Then he got into a Twitter argument with fans calling him out for saying that, and called one the “F-word” used to describe homosexuals.
Then today, he avoided the media, refusing to discuss it, but as the media was leaving the lockeroon was caught on tape (the KC Star has the audio), telling the media to get their “Fword used to describe homosexual” asses out of the lockeroom.
With the Chiefs having a buy this week, I suspect he’ll be gone before they play another game. He has likely played his last snap in KC, and as soon as Roger Goodell gets ahold of the audio, he likely won’t play another snap this year in the NFL.
Can’t imagine Goodell putting up with that.
Of course if he lived in Minnesota, the state courts would find a way for him to get back on the field.
October 26th, 20094:07 pm
As a fan of the Chiefs, I’m most offended by him calling out Coach Haley. As a fan of the NFL, and a person who hates racism, reverse racism, ethnic slurs, and any sort of slurs directed at anybody, the f*g bombs are just icing on the cake for a guy that doesn’t get it, never has gotten it, and never will get it.
Dick Vermeil was right. Dude wears a diaper.
October 26th, 20094:09 pm
and they feel that a pitcher like Kris Medlen can provide what Kenshin Kawakami provided last season?- and I feel that he can. (CallUp)
I don’t think he can, but ¿quien sabe?.
Larry Johnson is an idiot. What an ass.
October 26th, 20094:11 pm
I like Matt Diaz as your fifth outfielder. I don’t like him as a starter. (callup)
there usually is no fifth outfielder dude
October 26th, 20094:14 pm
How many times does these ESPN announcers ruin their jobs and lives with the employees at ESPN. Over the years it has been an often repeated thing with them. I liked all of the three,(3) I know of that this happened, but that is a shame.
NO MORE BOBBY
October 26th, 20094:16 pm
Can you send the world into a futuristic tailspin this Christmas and bypass 2010 completely?
That would be swell. Thanks.
October 26th, 20094:26 pm
By the way, where did this recent holier-than-thou attitude about the relative importance of specific stats come from? It’s as if some observers care less about the actual games and the players and the outcomes of the playoffs, etc., and more about the value they and other like-minded folks have assigned to specific stats, and to lording that understanding, which they view as obvious or cutting-edge or whatever, over flat-earthers who just don’t get it.) (DOB)
October 26th, 20094:30 pm
nolie, 4:11 pm … “there usually is no fifth outfielder dude”
There used to be a crappy dating show called “The Fifth Wheel.” Maybe callup was thinking about that for his “Fifth Outfielder.”
October 26th, 20094:35 pm
“there usually is no fifth outfielder dude”
sure there is. for the braves this year it was omar infante, marteen prado was #6 greg norton was #7, and brian mccann was 8th left fielder.
October 26th, 20094:39 pm
Only old people get to act like they know everything, kid, leave that stuff to nolie (RHR)
I can’t help it if my brain refuses to forget anything I ever learned. It Is NOT My Fault !!!
oh, i forgot to put the on the end of my last post.
October 26th, 20094:45 pm
Can the Braves negotiate with Kelly and sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal at about 2M a season? That would be ideal for all parties I would think. (Uga Acc)
I’m pretty sure that it can’t be less than 20%, and why would Kelly tie himself up like that for low pay and no guaranteed future progress.
Steve from OH
October 26th, 20094:47 pm
Cherokee–I think it could if a long-term deal was reached and considering his bad year this season, he might find it worthwhile to guarantee his future financial security while he’s got the chance…
It’s not happening though, so I wouldn’t worry about it.
October 26th, 20094:51 pm
Cherokee, keep the Kelly Johnson talks going… that backup 2nd baseman deserves so much attention.
Nolie, I don’t know how long you’ve been around baseball but there sure is usually a fifth outfielder. It’s the outfielder who is more of a spare outfielder instead of the first one off the bench. It’s hard to believe that some on this board may actually know what they’re talking about and those “know it alls” who question everything that is posted and lurk for the opportunity to poke out their chests should sit back and just read.
October 26th, 20094:52 pm
Cherokee, I have an honest question about Kelly Johnson. What do players who are primarly second basemen but don’t start make on the market? Is there anyone to compare him to?
October 26th, 20094:53 pm
The ST. Louis Cardinals signed Tony La Russa to a one year deal for the 2010 season and after that he can become a free agent coach therefore The Braves can maybe end up with Tony La Russa as the next coach of The Braves after Bobby Cox retires.
so I wouldn’t worry about it. Steve from Oh
I wasn’t worried. I kinda like Kelly, but I think he could do a bit better for himself away from Atlanta if they don’t offer him more than that level of a deal.
Going somewhere where he would start regularly seems to me to give him a chance at a better long term future.
Besides I agree with some that he is rather limited in his versatility to be a sub.
October 26th, 20094:55 pm
Ronnie Belliard might be a good comp, off the top of my head.
Made 2.5MM in ‘05, 4MM in ‘06, 750 K in ‘07, and 1.6MM in 08 and 1.9MM in ‘09 (3.5MM/2 years).
October 26th, 20094:56 pm
Please god, no Tony LaRussa…
October 26th, 20094:58 pm
Felipe Lopez might be another one. 3.5 this year, 4.9 last year in arb, 3.9 in 2007 (arb).
October 26th, 20094:59 pm
The Braves typically have carried 12 pitchers, leaving 5 bench spots. This season it started as:
4th of – Diaz
2nd catcher – Ross
utility if – Infante
utility if – prado
pinch hitter – Norton
So next season my personal guess is
4th of – Church or Schafer or Heyward – very up in the air as of today
2nd catcher – Ross
utility if – Infante
utility if – Johnson preferable, or Conrad/Hernandez
pinch hitter – Canizares or another OF
So unless Canizares makes the team, my guess is we will have a 5th OF.
October 26th, 20095:00 pm
My only hope for the World Series is that it is over in four games. I’ll root for whomever wins the first game.
Otherwise, I vote for the asteroid.
Yeah-and basketball has an eleventh man.
October 26th, 20095:03 pm
why no Tony La Russa he would be a good replacement for Bobby Cox he brings experience and leadership,
Nolie, I don’t know how long you’ve been around baseball but there sure is usually a fifth outfielder. It’s the outfielder who is more of a spare outfielder instead of the first one off the bench (callup)
I been around it about 55 years, a dozen or so of which i worked in it. But that was pretty funny dude. BTW, give me the name of the full season long regular 5th outfielder for the last 5 years on the Braves, please, who would correspond to Diaz as you envision him.
The Braves do not usually-I didn’t say never- carry 5 outfielders, they often use a swing man as the fifth OFer which of course Diaz is not.
Do you ever actually watch the Braves games? Cause your comments-including that stupid screen name which I told you months ago would not happen- are pretty unknowledgable.
October 26th, 20095:04 pm
Do you really believe that a team who is having problems attaining top talent at both 1b and OF will reserve 7.5 to 8 Mil for 2 bench spots?
That sounds like wishful thinking from someone hoping Church will stay healthy and more than likely a Kelly Johnson fan.
I think the reason he would tie himself up for 3 years with no guaranteed playing time is because he just came off a bad year. 3 years of financial security is a nice thing to have. Plus, several people on here have openly suggested that if he were to be non-tendered by the Braves, he likely would find a job where he had a good chance at starting but that his offers would be under 1 million. 2M > 1M.
October 26th, 20095:07 pm
I personally am hoping they cut Church and keep Kelly. You see my argument of how we could possibly aford to keep Kelly long term as a 2b backup who also could play LF if necessary.
I also assume Diaz is starting, although he becomes an expensive backup once Heyward and or Schafer forces his way in. Diaz or McLouth would need to be traded at that point.
I agree that we won’t break camp with Infante, Kelly, Church and Ross all on the bench, just too expensive.
October 26th, 20095:09 pm
Joe, on a personal level I can’t stand LaRussa. On a baseball level, I don’t think he’s any better than Bobby Cox. People seem to think he has some sort of Midas touch (see batting the pitcher 8th), and he seems to agree.
I’m hoping for a “newer” guy, such as Fredi Gonzalez.
October 26th, 20095:10 pm
my guess is we will have a 5th OF. (Uga Acc)
I agree that you might be correct with Schafer and Heyward up in the air at this point, but it is not their usual approach. They have done it B4 at times, Infante has allowed them more flexibility lately
October 26th, 20095:15 pm
Tony La Russa is a hall of famer and if we have a chance to bring in a hall of fame coach that would be great. The guy knows baseball and he is a coach that can attract free agents to come to the braves just by his name. I’m not sure with a new coach if he can attract players to the organization that easy like La Russa can plus I’m not just saying only La Russa can be the coach their are alot of coaches that would be good for the braves such as Ned Yost the former braves third base coach and recent former Brewers coach I think he would be a good fit for the braves.
October 26th, 20095:17 pm
Agree w/ you about LaRussa, especially considering I have more insight in being in the STL area.
That being said, I don’t want Fredi or anyone associated with the organization for that matter. I feel as though THAT is the only way things will get turned around is by bringing new blood in and a new system of doing things, a system that Frank can work with and build the type of team he wants to build, which given his track record so far looks like he wants pitching, speed, defense, and some pop with an emphasis this offseason being on the last one.
I was just hoping that Mills doesn’t get the Astros job, which it looks right now like he is, simply because I’d love to have him. My next candidate would probably be Roenicke, the bench coach for the Angels.
Other than that, I’d have to take a look and see who jumps out…either way, starting from scratch with an entirely new staff assures us the fans that we will have better base coaches, a better hitting coach, and a better bench coach without even knowing who will get those positions.
October 26th, 20095:19 pm
I really don’t like Tony LaRussa. I agree that he is a probable future hall of famer. However, his Oakland team and his St. Louis team have been loaded with juicers. I don’t see how he avoids that taint. That whole “passed out drunk in his car” in Spring Training thing really doesn’t sit well, either.
October 26th, 20095:21 pm
That may have been the case years ago, but mainly, players are in a sense greedy, and 95% of them only go somewhere for the money and comfortability now…
I just see a much better result in starting over with a younger guy at the helm and a better staff, allowing him to choose most if not all of his coaches.
October 26th, 20095:23 pm
P-Town–I’d like to see Mills get the job too, based on what little I know about prospective managerial candidates and their qualifications. But in reality, outsiders like us can never really know how those guys are perceived by their peers and thier qualifications…
October 26th, 20095:26 pm
Yeah, but it leaves us all with an awesome soundbyte.
Which once again leads me to the same conclusion as Rome…
If you’re doing a field sobriety test on the alphabet and you get to “Z”, shouldn’t you stop there?
U Z 2 V X Y X….I’m not sure I could laugh any harder…
Anyone who wants to see it again, its #3 on this website:
October 26th, 20095:27 pm
Nolie – Who do you think replaces Norton? I said Canizares OR a 5th OF. Are you thinking anyone else is a candidate for that spot? I don’t see us adding a 3rd utility IF (say Infante & Conrad & Hernandez) or purchasing a backup 1b/3b. We certainly have no 3b worth promoting in AAA so…
October 26th, 20095:31 pm
It’s not Tony La Russa’s fault that his players were juiced up he had no control over that and well the drunk case he had well things happen that was only once we haven’t heard anything else since then from him happening.
re: P-Town Brave
Look at the Chipper Jones case he could have gone elsewhere a long time ago but he wanted to stay with the braves cause of Bobby Cox. Albert Pujols loves Tony La Russa I betcha he would rather play for Tony La Russa than go elsewhere and play for a coach that is lesser experienced that La Russa some players rather win than caring about making the most money.
“Who do you think replaces Norton?”
The Gatorade canister.
October 26th, 20095:33 pm
Thank you P-Town. Jim Rome plays that audio every now and then. I laugh harder everytime I hear.
October 26th, 20095:34 pm
Who do you think replaces Norton?
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