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2,373 comments Add your comment
cabravesfan
September 24th, 2009
1:00 pm
Rob-
My brother actually had pretty major shoulder surgery just over 18 months ago…was rough at times (especially since it was his right shoulder and he is right handed) but he’s fine now- and without the pain every time he plays golf. Good luck
Nova Scotia Steve - Goodbye Bobby Cox
September 24th, 2009
1:01 pm
We definitely need a lot of help!
Daslied
September 24th, 2009
1:01 pm
Rob, I thought for sure you were making an awesomely subtle anti-Bobby comment. I stand corrected.
Dennis Green
September 24th, 2009
1:02 pm
Derek Lowe is exactly who we thought he was!
Soph
September 24th, 2009
1:02 pm
Rob -
Good luck with your surgery!
Agree with you on MattE – definitely deserves a chance for a starting job next season. We give Heyward some time and let him prepare. Hopefully, everything turns out well.
jim
September 24th, 2009
1:05 pm
Did Brian McCann always take such Schaferesque swings? His swing seems to be more like Jeff Francouer’s lately than his swing prior to the trade of Jeff.
Prado’s slump seemed to coincide not only with his headaches but with a period when he became pull happy, and his recent surge began when he started hitting the ball to right field agian.
For a good “professional” hitter, Garret Anderson can take some really ugly swings at, especially, low outside pitches.
Uggla will probably be available this winter, but I hope he is not someone the Braves would target. Prado gives better defense at 2B and more patience at the plate and more consistent offense. Uggla could be a candidate to replace Chipper at 3B, but that is not going to happen next year. There are better candidates to pursue and positions to fill to find that “big bat”.
I am not so quick to write off Church for next year. When healthy he can be a productive player. I always hated to see Curch coming to bat with runners on when he was playing for the Mets.
tiger297
September 24th, 2009
1:06 pm
Still don’t understand the need help perspective. The Braves need to sweep the worst team in baseball and beat the Marlins. Gives us 91 wins and is where I would expect Colorado to finish if they play average. Dodgers/Cards are going to take at least 4 from them unless the Rockies play much better than they have the last 2-3 weeks.
Vinings Jim
September 24th, 2009
1:08 pm
Rob – I had lower back surgery about 10 years ago – being a functional idiot (as most of us were called earlier), I played basketball two weeks later (but only to keep my consecutive games played streak intact, which is of critical concern in church league basketball)
Rob from SC
September 24th, 2009
1:09 pm
cabravesfan
Surgery will be on my left arm, which is what I write with. Taking 18 credit hours at school so this will be an issue. Hopefully my professors will be understanding
Soph
I just don’t think keeping Heyward in AAA for 2 months will cost us a shot at the playoffs. With Heyward it is important to think long term. I was guilty of thinking short term until today
McFann Ô
September 24th, 2009
1:10 pm
Rob–
Yeah, good luck with your surgery!
Rob from SC
September 24th, 2009
1:11 pm
Vinings Jim
I have to keep it in a sling for two month, except for rehab which I start 2 weeks after surgery. The scary think is the labrum is so sensitive that it is easy to tear the wire holding it.
Rob from SC
September 24th, 2009
1:11 pm
Thank you everyone for the well wishes.
bravesgrl4life
September 24th, 2009
1:12 pm
RHR – thanks for that link earlier. I almost teared up reading that one, too. I was in my early 20s in the 90s when we were on the division title streak. I didn’t get to go to many games, but I remember when Chipper came to the team. It was a great time.
I think what will make me sad is, with Cox retiring next year and the possibility of Chipper doing the same either next year or certainly within the next 5, there will go the last 2 links of the dynasty that was the 1990’s Braves. I will definitely cry when that happens.
That said, I am excited about some of the young talent we have now and the possibilities for the future Braves! I think if we miss the playoffs this year, our boys have shown heart and spirit this 2nd half, and I am proud of what they have done.
For all you haters, just go ahead and bail. The faithful among us will be there to the last out.
GO BRAVES!!!!!!!!
bravesgrl4life
September 24th, 2009
1:13 pm
Rob, saying prayers your surgery and rehab go well!
cabravesfan
September 24th, 2009
1:13 pm
VJ-
I’m not going to call you names, just point out that maybe playing basketball so soon after back surgery wasn’t the brightest thing to do…
Rob-
I imagine the bulky sling/arm pillow you get to wear will garner much sympathy and understanding (I freely admit there were times I was greatly amused watching my brother attempt to use his left hand to open things and fail because he was too stubbon to ask for help
)
Again- good luck…it may take a while but it will be worht it in the end
Rob from SC
September 24th, 2009
1:14 pm
be back later, time to write an English paper. Lets go Clayton Richard
McFann Ô
September 24th, 2009
1:16 pm
jim Did Brian McCann always take such Schaferesque swings? His swing seems to be more like Jeff Francouer’s lately…
Yeah, he’s taken some really weird swings this year–hence the career-high in K’s. Actually, June is really when that got started–in April and May combined, he only K’d 12 times. But in June, he K’d 15 times, in July, 18, in August, 18, and so far in September he’s K’d 14 times.
During that 9-game hitting streak, he was looking great at the plate. But this series against the Mets…
He has not been as consistent this year as he had been in the rest of his career.
Rob from SC
September 24th, 2009
1:16 pm
cabravesfan
I am very lucky that I have a great and supporting wife. She is going to make sure I heal completely.
jim from brooklyn
September 24th, 2009
1:16 pm
Enter your comments here Does anyone remember when Mr. Cox played Darren Bragg (” Braggsy”) in an interleague series at Boston everyday? They could not get him out. He was a Bosox reject. We swept the series. One of Cox’ finest hours. I loved it : ” Come on Braggsy.”
CB
September 24th, 2009
1:18 pm
Robert, when I said the “wise counsel” who was speaking against Cox,you thought I WAS REFERRING TO YOU? Hahahawahaha! I can’t remember when I heard something so funny!Bwahahahaha! Ok, I’m better now. Hahahaha
Marc in FL
September 24th, 2009
1:20 pm
All the teams facing the Rockies has an incentive to playing their best… For the same reason everyone we’re facing will be trying their hardest to beat us, it’s an insult to the game for these players and teams not to bring their best.
Yes, some players will get a day or two off the rest of the season, but no manager is going to sit 3-5 regulars at a time or only leave their ace in for 60 pitches. These managers and players (for the most part) are professionals who understand that if the sanctity of the game is compromised then their title (should they win one) means nothing.
So don’t worry about the Rockies facing teams that are shoe-ins for a playoff spot, they play some good teams down the stretch and will have to play hard to hold their position. Their only easy out is if the Braves, Giants, and Marlins are all cave in and give up. I don’t foresee that happening.
glord1
September 24th, 2009
1:21 pm
Shaun – I will take your challenege but I will not be giving ant new info. Its already well known. Bobby Played three players for a long time every day with an OPS of under .650. Two of those players he played for over half a season and they killed the Braves. He had better options. How do I know he had better options? Because the two guys he put in there both have extremely high OPS and have helped carry the Braves the second half. Had he done it earlier the Braves would probably be plaing another week or two.
Here is an analogy for you on why Bobby is not the manager he once was. My Grandfather is 85 years old and thinks he can still drive a car. He cant. He is older and more determined than ever to do it at the detriment to everyone. Everyone knew he could not drive but him. His kids finally had to take his keys away. Bobby Cox said Frenchy is my right fielder, KJ is my 2B and I dont care who thinks different because I know better. He thought this when they had proven they could not do it to everyone but him. Frank Wren finally took his keys away by optioning KJ with a bogus injury and trading JF for a bag of balls with an equal contract (sorry RC).
I will turn it around on you? What do you think Cox does well at this point? Manage a pitching staff? Make strategic moves? Set the proper line up?
Everyone loves Grandpa for all he has done for us through the years but I love him more when he does not have his keys? Bobby loses his next October.
Shaun
September 24th, 2009
1:22 pm
Yet, when Bobby sends Soriano into the ninth inning with a four to five run lead, he gets wailed on. Haven’t we learned that the back end of the Braves bullpen can blow any lead? Win today and let tomorrow take care of itself.
The Braves are 6th in the NL in relief ERA (and are below the league average by about .20). But here is something interesting: The Dodgers and Phillies have blown more saves than the Braves. The Braves have converted 64 percent of their save chances, the Dodgers 65 percent, the Phillies 66. We all know about Brad Lidge’s struggles. I think this indicates that what happens in the 9th inning (or later in some cases) gets overblown relative to what happens in innings 1-8; and why it’s not a good idea to pay top dollar for relief pitching. After all, a save chance is only one inning. Obviously blowing a save is not good by any means. But there are other aspects of the game vastly more important than what happens in save chances. That’s not to say save chances aren’t important and teams shouldn’t try to put the best pitcher possible into that role. It’s just a small part of the game and may not indicate anything about the overall ability of a team to earn a playoff spot, at least not to the degree we may think.
gayle
September 24th, 2009
1:23 pm
A perfect scenario, the Braves back into the playoffs just so all you Cox-lovers can get another taste of Bobby’s post season brilliance. Just like in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005, the Cox-managed team will be eliminated in the first round in front of a huge crowd at Turner Field – a huge sea of red – Cardinal fans.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again hoping for a different result.
Such are the Cox managed Atlanta Braves.
McFann Ô
September 24th, 2009
1:27 pm
Shaun We all know about Brad Lidge’s struggles.
Yep. And yet, Manuel says, “He’s still our closer.” Haha…I wonder if there’s some poster on a Fillies blog named “You All Are Manuel Apologists” who goes on about how stupid Charlie is for sticking with Lidge.
darren
September 24th, 2009
1:29 pm
The braves first 71 games they were 34-37
The braves next 81 games they are 48-33(.595 CLIP)….this will be a very good team next year with the addition of Heyward and some fine tuning. This team will be a 95 plus win team next year bank on it(if healthy)…at a .595 clip through 152 games is 90 wins that would be 1 game back of the best record in the NL and 3rd best in baseball.
glord1
September 24th, 2009
1:32 pm
darren
September 24th, 2009
1:29 pm
The braves first 71 games they were 34-37
The braves next 81 games they are 48-33(.595 CLIP)….this will be a very good team next year with the addition of Heyward and some fine tuning. This team will be a 95 plus win team next year bank on it(if healthy)…at a .595 clip through 152 games is 90 wins that would be 1 game back of the best record in the NL and 3rd best in baseball.
Darren – No arguement from me.
Piedmont Blues
September 24th, 2009
1:36 pm
Rob,
Good luck.
jim,
The other night on MLB Network, Barry Larkin thought Uggla should be moved to another position. “He’s an athlete,” Larkin said, who deserves to play somewhere even if not at a premium defensive position. Why not give him a shot in LF? If I recall correctly, the Braves made that same move about 20 years ago with another young, power-hitting 2B who went on to become a potential MVP and then a really lousy announcer.
jim
September 24th, 2009
1:40 pm
There was near unanimous support on this blog this spring to promote Schafer and make him our CF. When that decision was made, there was no other good option on the team to play CF until the McLouth trade was made. Once the decision was made to promote Schafer, this team was not going to abort that decision without giving him an adequate chance to adapt and succeed. The two month trial was justified given the investment that the team had in the development of that player. Will we be just as critical of Cox for sticking with Heyward for two months if he comes up and struggles initially?
The team also invested heavily in the future of Jeff Francouer. He was deemed the new face of the franchise when he arrived. Under those circumstances he had to be given every opportunity to succeed. Diaz proved to be a good platoon player prior to last year, but when given a shot at winning the job full time he struggled mightily before his injury. His play this second half has been a revelation, but he was never considered to be anything more than a 4th outfielder before the trade (which still may be the case), and he was not going to stand in the way of Francouer recapturing the potential some in the organization had hoped for.
Shaun
September 24th, 2009
1:40 pm
glord1, but don’t a lot of managers play inferior players at least in some seasons, especially young inferior players that the manager wants to give chances to in hopes that they will improve?
But you didn’t really answer the challenge I had in mind: Name a manager who was consistently good or bad when his teams “on paper” were not consistently good or consistently bad. In other words, has there been a manager who consistently finishes with 85-90 wins or 85-90 losses yet the players on their teams changed a lot and their talent level of the players changed a lot. If so, that can help indicate that a manager can actually make a significant difference in a team’s win-loss record.
I will turn it around on you? What do you think Cox does well at this point? Manage a pitching staff? Make strategic moves? Set the proper line up?
I think he does about as good or bad as most other managers regarding these areas of the game. In other words, at worst I don’t think he’s costing the Braves in any of these areas.
fastasballs
September 24th, 2009
1:41 pm
How big would a Rockie loss tonight be? If that happens they will really start to feel the heat because it would bring the Braves to within 3 games in the loss column. That’s not impossible with the Braves schedule. It would give the Braves a huge lift going into the Natty series.
The Braves could amass some serious draft picks if they lose Soriano & Gonzalez to free agency. I’ve read where both would be Type A free agents meaning the Braves get four picks, two of those being sandwitch selections. I’m assuming they lose their pick because I’m hoping Wren goes hard after Bay or Holliday.
It’s going to be fun last two weeks & an interesting off season for sure.
KizzyMo
September 24th, 2009
1:43 pm
Here is some wishful thinking – where will the one game playoff between the Rockies and Braves be played?
fastasballs
September 24th, 2009
1:46 pm
KizzyMo, I think I read the Braves have the tie breaker so it would be at the Ted. If it’s a three way tie then I don’t have a clue.
Nova Scotia Steve - Goodbye Bobby Cox
September 24th, 2009
1:47 pm
KizzyMo
I believe it would be in Atlanta…Because we won the season series – correct?
Nova Scotia Steve - Goodbye Bobby Cox
September 24th, 2009
1:48 pm
San Fran won the season series against ATL 4-3
brian
September 24th, 2009
1:49 pm
how big is that loss to the Rockies on the day before the All Star break looming right now?
DAP
September 24th, 2009
1:50 pm
piedmont blues
ive heard much worse ideas than converting uggla to play LF. however, hopefully the braves wont have to resort to doing something like that.
Nova Scotia Steve - Goodbye Bobby Cox
September 24th, 2009
1:53 pm
I remember when San Fran swept us out in the Bay area…We were playin terrible baseball at that point in time.
Random
September 24th, 2009
1:54 pm
Shaun –
Some interesting insights and analysis from you today.
Thanks.
PS: Btw, Shaun (and you too, P. W. Hjort, 11:12, 11:16), when you quote someone else’s comment, it would be very helpful if you attributed it by identifying WHO you’re replying to. It would show a little consideration to those us who are trying to follow the discussion, as well as a modicum of respect to your “correspondent”. (Or do you actually prefer not to afford them a chance to respond, by critiquing their comments in “stealth” mode?)
jim
September 24th, 2009
1:56 pm
LF may be the position for Uggla eventually (but the Fish chose to make Coughlan switch from 2B to LF instead of Uggla). I recall those Yankee teams of the late 90’s that had a lineup full of players like Jeter, O’Neill, Bernie, and Martinez that worked the count and got into the other team’s bullpen before the 7th inning and the late inning guys. Uggla is not that patient type of hitter and he will require at least one good player back in return — a prospect like Freeman or Teheran. I don’t think he is worth that kind of investment at either 2B or LF.
Actually I would not be unhappy if this lineup returns intact next year (plus Heyward). I think there has been enough offense since the trade deadline to make the playoffs and the only really impatient hitter has been, oddly enough, Chipper Jones. I think the more pressing need may be help in the bullpen and that might be more gettable with the likes of KJ.
Nova Scotia Steve - Goodbye Bobby Cox
September 24th, 2009
1:56 pm
I think you can look at a number of games we let slip away…but every team can.
Look at Philly Brad Lidge has 11 blown saves including last night’s debacle.
Imagine if Lidge pitched the way he did (or even close) in 2008.
Phillies would have laughed their way to the Division title by the time September 1st rolled around
RC
September 24th, 2009
1:56 pm
“KizzyMo
I believe it would be in Atlanta…Because we won the season series – correct?”
Actually, season series is tied at 4-4. However, Braves did outscore Rockies 42-38 in those games. Went 2-2 at home with a 21-19 run differential, and 2-2 on the road with a 21-19 run differential. Weird.
glord1
September 24th, 2009
1:57 pm
Shaun fair enough. Alot of this is opinion and we are both entitled to both of ours. What I disagree on is I dont believe the Braves have ever had less talent in the division and won anyway. Never. But I have seen them have more talent in the playoffs and lose repeatitly. I dont believe they ever overachieved unless you want to count 91.
Bobby does some things that no other manager would do because he is a creature of habit.
He sets up a line up and someone has to die for him to change it. Laroche is his best hitter right now and for the last 7 weeks. What other manager would hit him 7th or 8th in baseball. He has been as hot as Pujols since Aug 1st. I checked the Cards box score and guess where Albert was hitting. Not 7th or 8th.
Joe Torre moved a 25 mil player down to 7th in the playoffs because he wanted to win. If Chipper was 0-50 with 50 Ks going into the playoffs he would hit him third. Caring more about your relationships than winning is not a good trait for any manager.
Most other manager do not use key bullpen pitchers with a 5 run inning when they have pitched the previous two days. TRhat is unique to Bobby
When Bobby has the right line up and the team is playing well he is at his best (like right now). He keeps them loose and they do like playing for him because of his loyalty. Right now he doing a great job managing this team. To bad it took him three months to figure out that sometimes you have to make adjustments to get your line up right.
Shaun
September 24th, 2009
1:59 pm
I will turn it around on you? What do you think Cox does well at this point? Manage a pitching staff? Make strategic moves? Set the proper line up?
I think this is part of the problem with the anti-Bobby Cox crowd, they think managers are drastically different with regard to managing a pitching staff, strategy or setting a lineup. But as someone pointed out earlier, the game pretty much dictates these decisions. In other words, most major league managers are going to basically make the same or very similar decisions regarding these aspects of the game. (This is why a GM is a lot more important than a manager because he’s the one who actually makes decisions regarding which players are available.) And I think over the course of 162 games, bad decisions and good decisions by major league managers are going to even out and one managers bad decisions are going to even out with another manager’s bad decisions so generally one managers is not going to be drastically better than another.
Think about it this way, if a manager constantly puts a slow guy with a .230 on-base at the top of his lineup, he’s not going to be managing in the majors for long.
A managers value is likely not obvious in his strategic decisions. His value is likely in things that are difficult to measure: Creating an atmosphere that allows players to play up to their ability, dealing with the media, working the umpires and standing up for your players, promoting the organizational philosophies at the major league level. Lots of guys can make out a good lineup and put in the right players at the right time (though most guys are going to mess up at least sometimes in that regard). The best managers are probably the ones who do those other non-strategic things well.
jim
September 24th, 2009
2:00 pm
Good point Nova Scotia. Hasn’t Charlie Manuel been just as obstinate as Bobby by trotting Lidge out their like Norton night-after-night?
RC
September 24th, 2009
2:05 pm
Excerpts from Major League Rule 33 and Major League Rule 34
Scenario #3: If two teams are tied for the Wild Card, the tie shall be broken as follows:
A one-game playoff shall be played on Monday, September 29 to determine the Wild Card. The site of the game would be determined by a coin flip and the winner of the game shall be declared the Wild Card.
So I guess it doesn’t matter what our record vs. the Rockies is.
RC
September 24th, 2009
2:07 pm
“Think about it this way, if a manager constantly puts a slow guy with a .230 on-base at the top of his lineup, he’s not going to be managing in the majors for long. ” – Shaun
But if a manager puts a FAST guy with a .230 on-base at the top of his lineup, he’s Dusty Baker!
Shaun
September 24th, 2009
2:09 pm
Shaun fair enough. Alot of this is opinion and we are both entitled to both of ours. What I disagree on is I dont believe the Braves have ever had less talent in the division and won anyway. Never. But I have seen them have more talent in the playoffs and lose repeatitly. I dont believe they ever overachieved unless you want to count 91.
glord, I don’t know about that. I can think of at least some seasons in the early 2000s when the Phillies appeared to have the best team in the division on paper, “experts” picked them, and they were projected to win more games by computer simulations and things like that; but the Braves ended up at the division winners.
As far as having more talent and losing in the playoffs, lesser teams often win in the playoffs. Only 2 teams since 1995 have won the World Series and had the best record in baseball (1998, 2007). There was actually one season (2006) in which the 13th best team in baseball (record wise) won the World Series. In 2000, the 9th best team, record wise, won the Series. Last season the Phillies were the 5th best, record wise.
glord1
September 24th, 2009
2:12 pm
Shaun again I agree with alot of what you are saying. Most games play themselves out and the manager matters very little. The atmosphere they create is more important than their moves if the are managing with the current. Thats the big if with Bobby this year – managing with the current.
People say Bobby creates a great atmosphere. I have to believe that comtributed to many of those 14 straight years and I give him credit for that.
I know we are beating this to death but give me an honest answer to a couple of questions.
Does it hurt a team when a manager pinch hits a guy 20 straight times that has a lower Ave and OPS than two of his pitchers? Would he increase his odds of winning a game in a tie score with the winning run on third with less than two outs if he sends up a solid hitter instead of the worst in baseball statiscally?
Would most managers make a line up change (would it be smart?) if their team has lost 31 games before July where they had scored 3 or less runs? Especially with two lifetime .300 mlb hitters on the bench.
If Bobby created a great atmosphere for players and was an average bench manager this year your arguement would be correct. But he did some stubborn things that were clearly managing against the current and he was wrong and hurt the team.
Will you admit that any of these mistakes could have cost the team games and thus the playoffs?
McFann Ô
September 24th, 2009
2:14 pm
jim Actually I would not be unhappy if this lineup returns intact next year
I would be if BMac remains the cleanup hitter.
Mid Town Joe
September 24th, 2009
2:15 pm
and I thought some of us bloggers were ruthless!
Nova Scotia Steve - Goodbye Bobby Cox
September 24th, 2009
2:15 pm
DOB…
Do you think there is any desire to bring back Garret Anderson?
Prolly no huh
pryguy
September 24th, 2009
2:19 pm
still believing…
DOB is the best around…Thanks for all the quotes on Bobby and the never-ending statistics. Good work man.
glord1
September 24th, 2009
2:19 pm
Bobby is the manager for 2010 that will probably be just fine. If this team sihns Laroche, a solid OF bat and two good relievers I am excited that this team looks like a playoff team for the first time in a while. I cant wait to see Heywardn full time next year.
Mid Town Joe
September 24th, 2009
2:19 pm
Does Bobby’s dugout mitt make the 2010 Farewell Tour?
Daslied
September 24th, 2009
2:19 pm
You know, those losses to the Rockies before the AS break don’t count any more than any other loss. What about Lowe’s 8-run inning game? The blown 10-3 lead in Philly? KK’s meltdown in Cincinnati? Medlen’s first start?
tiger297
September 24th, 2009
2:20 pm
RC have some fun post the rule for a 3 way wildcard tie with two of the teams in the same division…that is the interesting one
RC
September 24th, 2009
2:22 pm
“You know, those losses to the Rockies before the AS break don’t count any more than any other loss.”
They actually DO count more than any other loss, simply because the Rockies are the team which we are chasing. So if you replace one of our losses vs. them with a win, you also get to replace one of their wins with a loss, thereby giving the Braves a 2-game swing relative to Colorado.
RC
September 24th, 2009
2:26 pm
Scenario #4: If three Clubs are tied for first place in a Division (or Wild Card) with an identical winning percentage at the conclusion of the championship season and the tied Clubs do not have identical records against one another in the championship season, the tie for the Division Championship (or Wild Card) shall be broken as follows:
If the three tied Clubs have identical records against one another in the championship season, the Office of the Commissioner shall supervise a draw that results in the Clubs’ being designated Club “A,” “B,” and “C.”
If the tied Clubs do not have identical records against one another in the champoinship season, they will be designated Club “A,”"B,” and “C” based on their records in head-to- head competition during the championship season as follows:
If Club 1 has a better record against each of Clubs 2 and 3, and Club 2 has a better record against Club 3, then Club 1 shall choose a designation as Club “A,” “B,” or “C,” and Club 2 shall choose a designation from the remaining two designations. Club 3 shall be assigned the remaining designation.
If Club 1 has a better record against each of Clubs 2 and 3, and Club 2 and Club 3 have the same record against each other, then Club 1 shall choose a designation as Club “A,” “B,” or “C,” and the Office of the Commissioner shall supervise a draw between Clubs 2 and 3, the winner of which shall choose one of the remaining two designations. The remaining Club shall be assigned the remaining designation.
If Club 1 and Club 2 have the same record against each other but each has a better record against Club 3, then the Office of the Commissioner shall supervise a draw between Clubs 1 and 2, the winner of which shall choose a designation as Club “A,” “B,” or “C.” The Club losing the draw shall choose a designation from the remaining two designations. Club 3 shall be assigned the remaining designation.
If Club 1 has a better record against Club 2, Club 2 has a better record against Club 3, and Club 3 has a better record against Club 1, then the three Clubs shall be ranked on the basis of overall winning percentage within that three-Club group, and the Club with the highest winning percentage from among that three-Club group shall have first choice among designations as Club”A,” “B,” or “C,” the Club with the next highest winning percentage from among that three-Club group shall have the next choice between the two remaining designations, and the Club with the lowest winning percentage from among that three-Club group shall be assigned the remaining designation. If two or more of the Clubs within such three-Club group have the same winning percentage among the group, the Office of the Commissioner shall supervise a draw between the Clubs so tied to determine priority of selection among the designations.
Club”A” shall play Club “B” at the ballpark of Club “A” on Monday, September 29. The following day (Tuesday, September 30), the winner of the first game shall be the home Club in a second game, against Club “C.” The winner of the game between Club”C” and the Club that won the game between Club”A” and Club”B” shall be declared the Division Champion.
Example of Scenario #4: The Chicago White Sox, Kansas City Royals and Minnesota Twins tie for the AL Central Division Championship. The Seattle Mariners have a better record than all three tied Clubs and would be the Wild Card. Based on their head-to-head records through games of September 7 (CWS 7-5 over each Minnesota and KC; KC 11-8 over Minnesota), the White Sox would choose their designation as Club “A,” “B,” or “C,” and Kansas City would choose a designation from the remaining two designations. Minnesota would be assigned the remaining designation.
RC
September 24th, 2009
2:27 pm
If anyone else wants to have more fun reading about tiebreakers, look here:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/division_ties.shtml
Shaun
September 24th, 2009
2:32 pm
Does it hurt a team when a manager pinch hits a guy 20 straight times that has a lower Ave and OPS than two of his pitchers? Would he increase his odds of winning a game in a tie score with the winning run on third with less than two outs if he sends up a solid hitter instead of the worst in baseball statiscally?
glord1, well, it depends on how the skill of that hitter. A player could have bad stats in one season but his stats over the last several seasons could be just fine. It’s always dangerous to judge a player on a relative handful of plate appearances. I’m assuming you’re talking about Norton. Norton was fine over the last few seasons and was fine in his rehab appearances. While I certainly don’t want to defend Cox’s decision to go with Norton in some of those situations and while I don’t want to say it makes a lot of sense, I think it makes more sense than people realize.
Would most managers make a line up change (would it be smart?) if their team has lost 31 games before July where they had scored 3 or less runs? Especially with two lifetime .300 mlb hitters on the bench.
Again, it depends on the situation. With Francoeur you have a young player that everyone thought would be okay in time. With Kelly Johnson, you had a player that did a lot of things right over the course of his career up to this season (and who still may be a good player; I’m not convinced injury wasn’t the primary factor in his struggles). Look at Pedroia in Boston his first season. He had a horrible first few months but they stuck with him when everyone was calling for him to be benched. Baseball is largely about patience because small samples don’t necessarily tell you much.
Will you admit that any of these mistakes could have cost the team games and thus the playoffs?
I’ll admit that Bobby most likely have made decisions that may have cost the team runs/games relative to other decision he could have made. But I’m not so sure those mistakes cost the team runs/games relative to other managers’ decisions because my guess is every manager ahead of the Braves in the standings also made some decisions that cost his team relative to other decisions they could have made. Also, I’m sure there are some decisions that Cox made that helped the Braves. So when you consider that other managers for teams that will finish ahead of the Braves likely made mistakes and that Cox probably also made some good decisions, I’m not sure you can say with any certainty that his bad decisions cost the Braves a great deal.
Daslied
September 24th, 2009
2:32 pm
RC, I get your point. But this was mine, even though I didn’t go into detail:
Aug. 18th: Lowe’s 8-run inning game, Rockies beat Nats.
April 4th: Blown 10-3 game, Rockies beat D’backs.
April 26th: KK’s Reds blowout, Rockies beat Dodgers.
May 21st: Medlen’s first start, Rockies beat…Braves.
TennesseePaul
September 24th, 2009
2:32 pm
Efrim: “They have more talent, and have had it for the last 5-8 years or so. It might not be the DH, could just be that they have more large market teams and the talent level across the two leagues just comes and goes. But for some reason I always think of the DH”
Very late on this one but SACRILEGE!
On a different note, the talent pool in the AL is over two fewer teams than the NL. And the DH has been around for quite some time, and only in the last 5-8 years, as you state, has the “advantage” of that bastardization been prevalent.
This world series will turn the recent trend into 1 more victory between the NL and AL since 2001. As for the All Star games, only one in that time span has been decided by more than three runs. Five by one run. One was a tie. The ball is bouncing in favor of the AL… but trends change.
Tomas
September 24th, 2009
2:33 pm
Well Bobby has had a great carrer, and it will finally come to an end. I hope next year they give him a heck of a team to win the world series. I saw the mlb networks guys talking about how the braves might opened their wallets a little bit this off season. And if they’re pitching remains intact, and they add a big bat then they could win it all.
Resign Adam laroche to 3 years 24 million, and when Freeman is ready just simply trade Laroche, that wont be hard considering his second half production.
Call up Jason Heyward, and make him the starting right fielder(adds more speed and defense, and potentially a #3 hitter in the future).
And the last issue they have to deal with is the bulpen. Mike Gonzalez, and Rafael Soriano are both free agents at the end of the year, and they are both injury prone. I like both of them as setup guys, but not as closers. Maybe keep one, which ever is cheaper, and pick up tim hudsons option and trade Kawakami for a closer.
tiger297
September 24th, 2009
2:35 pm
so in a 2 way tie coin flip determines home field…in a 3 way tie Braves/Rockies play location determined by a draw and the winner plays at San Francisco
cvbraves
September 24th, 2009
2:36 pm
I am so proud to be called one of the “Cox apologists” on the blog. It is a great honor to be known as such…although there is nothing to apologize for. Bobby Cox was and is a great manager, and I have thoroughly enjoyed the last 20 years of Braves baseball. Thanks, Bobby, and congratulations!
Shaun
September 24th, 2009
2:40 pm
glord1, also, regarding Norton’s plate appearances, he’s only come to the plate 91 times this season. BaseballReference.com says he came to the plate 31 times in high leverage situations (and posted a .419 on-base in those situations which means he actually did a pretty good job not making outs in those situations).
So, again, while I certainly don’t condone Norton playing in key spots, can you point to Norton as the reason the Braves lost the games they lost? I mean there have only been 2 games all season where he got more than 1 plate appearance. What about all the other plate appearances in those games and all the other pitching/defensive plays in those games? One play does not a game make. If enough of the non-Norton plays had gone the Braves way, they probably win.
Nova Scotia Steve - Goodbye Bobby Cox
September 24th, 2009
2:43 pm
Ohhh how I long for a St. Louis sweep of the Rockies…Could you imaine…think if the hysteria….
DAP
September 24th, 2009
2:47 pm
dasliedYou know, those losses to the Rockies before the AS break don’t count any more than any other loss.
well, they kind of do, since it would not only be another win for us, but a loss for them. each loss to the rockies is really a two game difference, in terms of games back.
Nova Scotia Steve - Goodbye Bobby Cox
September 24th, 2009
2:47 pm
Aaron Cook going Friday for the Rockies…let’s hope its a – rocky – return
ease19
September 24th, 2009
2:47 pm
glord1 and Shaun
Thanks for the positive spin you guys are putting on the Bobby Cox issue. It is real easy to bash a manager (i.e.YAACA), but to defend one, takes alot more insight. My two cents, then I will go cash my dollar, I have tickets for the Oct.4th game, and I was really dismayed at the thought of attending Bobby’s last game as manager of the Braves. As a life long Braves fan, having endured the likes of Chuck Tanner, Bobby Haas, Joe Torre (who was not all that bad here, but…), etc. it would have truly been a surreal experience, I now I am glad that I don’t have to go through that until next year…
Again, my thanks!
Daslied
September 24th, 2009
2:51 pm
Yes, DAP, I know – see my last post above. The point was that a reversal on any 4 losses would have us tied right now. Those 4 were particularly painful, and they coincided with Rockies wins.
McFann Ô
September 24th, 2009
2:51 pm
Daslied April 4th: Blown 10-3 game, Rockies beat D’backs.
That was April 8th…
Shaun
September 24th, 2009
2:54 pm
Here’s what we need to evaluate managers in any sort of objective fashion: We need some objective way to evaluate every decision every manager made then we need to compare a manager’s decisions to every other managers’ decisions. Anyone know of an easy way to objective evaluate a manager’s decisions? I certainly don’t because there is a lot that goes into their decisions; it would be pretty much impossible to objectively determine whether a decision was good or bad or maybe how good the decision was on say a scale of 1-10.
For example, putting in a reliever a manager has to determine who the other team has coming up, who may be pinch-hitting, what those hitters have done against the pitcher or similar pitchers, what the pitcher has done against those hitters or similar hitters, if the pitcher needs rest from previous games, if he needs to be saved for future games, how he’s feeling on that day, etc., etc., etc.
Once you figure out a way to clearly evaluate managerial decision in an objective way, let me know. Then we can start to tackle the more immeasurable parts of a manager’s job like dealing with the media, keeping the clubhouse in order, promoting the organizational philosophy, etc.
DAP
September 24th, 2009
2:54 pm
daslied, no matter your point, what you said was false. 4 loss reversals against any team would have us tied, except vs the rockies where it would only take 2 loss reversals. so, the losses versus the rockies are actually worse for the braves right now than all the other ones against other teams.
Nova Scotia Steve - Goodbye Bobby Cox
September 24th, 2009
2:57 pm
Rockies are 10-7 against the Padres this year.
San Diego has played them pretty tough.
Nova Scotia Steve - Goodbye Bobby Cox
September 24th, 2009
3:00 pm
If we’re 2.5 to 3 games behind the Rockies going into the last week of the season…it’s going to be aweful interesting.
Tonight is such a big game for Colorado…not to mention ATL, San Fran & Flordia.
Think I’ll be going to the bar to watch this one…
Efrim
September 24th, 2009
3:05 pm
Jayson Stark on some Braves offseason decisions:
On the Hudson: Yes, it looks all but certain that Tim Hudson will be returning to the Braves next year. But no, that doesn’t mean the Braves will look to trade Javier Vazquez.
Clubs that have felt out the Braves on this came away with the feeling they’re more likely to deal someone like Jo-Jo Reyes than Vazquez or even Kenshin Kawakami, unless they’re offered a legit middle-of-the-order bat in return.
Not so likely to return in Atlanta: The Braves’ prospective free-agent back-of-the-bullpen tandem of Rafael Soriano and Mike Gonzalez.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings090924
Daslied
September 24th, 2009
3:05 pm
McFann – thanks. Just a typo, result was still correct.
DAP – As I said, I get your point. I’m just not one to believe that a 162-game season is defined by 2 games. Would it have been nice to sweep Colorado back then? Of course. But there are 68 other games I’d like to have back, too.
Del
September 24th, 2009
3:07 pm
I have not been a bobby Cox fan, but I am pleased to know that he will go out in style and still be associated with the Braves in an advisory capacity.Congrats to BC and to Braves mgmt for a class act after the Smoltz and Glavine fiascos. I can certainly live with one more year of Bobby’s wierd decisions. knowing full well that it won’t be for much longer.
DAP
September 24th, 2009
3:09 pm
daslied there are 68 other games I’d like to have back, too.
agreed.
Steve from OH
September 24th, 2009
3:10 pm
Efrim, I just read that. Sounds good to me, keeping both Huddy and JV! Unless, by “won’t shop,” he simply means the Braves will sit and wait for good offers to come to them…
Steve from OH
September 24th, 2009
3:11 pm
Seems to me I picked a good time to stop home quick, lots of good discussion today…
Steve from OH
September 24th, 2009
3:13 pm
Did anyone see this? VERY encouraging news…
http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2009/09/braves-attendance-recovers/
Efrim
September 24th, 2009
3:15 pm
Unless, by “won’t shop,” he simply means the Braves will sit and wait for good offers to come to them…
Steve from OH, I bet that’s it. I hope they keep him though. But I do understand the need for a middle of the order bat. Maybe Wren can pull a Horacio for Soriano type deal. I doubt it, but ya never know.
brent a.
September 24th, 2009
3:17 pm
it’s hard to argue the quality of a manager, when the person you argue with holds the position that managers don’t really do anything, anyway. You’ll never get anywhere.
Brian @ 1:49 – I said over a month ago that the loss at Colorao to end the 1st half is the one game I’d like to have back, if I could only have one game back this season.
That’s a huge 2 game swing.
Efrim
September 24th, 2009
3:19 pm
Steve from OH, how mad would you be if they didn’t offer arb. to Soriano and/or Gonzo and they walked? For a draft lover like myself, I’m sure it would infuriate you. Hell, from a pure Braves fan perspective, it wouldn’t be smart.
wjones
September 24th, 2009
3:19 pm
Shaun, I would like to add to your observations these thoughts. Isn’t it interesting how managers tend to “gravitate toward the middle?” By this, I don’t mean they all gain weight, but that once a certain trend starts, it seems to catch on and before long all managers are doing the exact same thing. Everyone uses closers only for the ninth inning now, with few exceptions. Prior to Bruce Sutter, this was not a practice. Now it is conventional wisdom. Virtually every manager only puts their “closer” into the game in a “save situation”, in other words, yes with a 3 run lead, no with a 4 run lead (note all the crap Bobby catches on the blog when he dares to use the closer with a 4 or 5 run lead). Other things, such as hit and run, base stealing, sac bunting, use of LOOGYs, adherence to pitch counts, one inning set-up men, etc., are all things that either have become fashionable or unfashionable, and it seems like every team falls into place. Bobby’s pitchers don’t pitch complete games. But look at complete games across MLB. Bobby uses set up guys for only one inning, and uses them repeatedly. Look across MLB to see how many other managers are doing the same thing. Bobby brings in Soriano, even though he blew a save last week. Manuel brings in Lidge, even though he blew two saves earlier in the day. We focus on how Bobby manages because we “live and breathe” with his decisions every day. We become fans of a distant great manager, who we see only when they are being successful, and at that only a few times a year. Charlie Manuel kept Jimmy Rollins in the lead-off spot virtually all year, and look at his OBP. Charlie has for the most part kept relying on Lidge to close, and he has more blown saves than our whole team, by a large margin, and an ERA of over 7! But he is in first place, so no one on here talks of how many games he has cost the Phillies with his managing.
McFann Ô
September 24th, 2009
3:19 pm
No problem, Daslied.
Danga
September 24th, 2009
3:21 pm
What stops a team from offering arbitration? Is it just a fear that they’ll actually accept and they’ll be spending a considerable amount of money in someone they weren’t very interested in keeping?
Steve from OH
September 24th, 2009
3:23 pm
Efrim–oh, no, I wouldn’t be happy at all. For GA, no, don’t even think about offering him arb. For Raffy, Gonzo and Roachy? Picks, please.
RC
September 24th, 2009
3:24 pm
Wait, Royals attendance is UP almost 200,000?!?! I guess it was hard for them to get any lower, but still…..
Steve from OH
September 24th, 2009
3:25 pm
Danga–yes. If you offer arb, and the player accepts, you’re stuck with him (IIRC, you can cut him during ST for an 80%(ish) savings, but don’t hold me to it).
Think of the Maddux/Millwood thing. Doggie accepted the arbitration we didn’t think he’d take, so we had to trade Millwood for relatively little in order to meet payroll.
RC
September 24th, 2009
3:26 pm
“What stops a team from offering arbitration? Is it just a fear that they’ll actually accept and they’ll be spending a considerable amount of money in someone they weren’t very interested in keeping?” – Danga
Yep, that’s pretty much it. Especially if it’s a player who would stand to make a lot of money if they accepted arbitration, like when Maddux accepted the Braves offer, forcing them to trade Kevin Millwood for Johnny Estrada in order to free up payroll.
RHR
September 24th, 2009
3:27 pm
Tonight is such a big game for Colorado…not to mention ATL, San Fran & Flordia
Think I’ll be going to the bar to watch this one…
You better take your sleeping bag.
TennesseePaul
September 24th, 2009
3:29 pm
Payne: A managers value is likely not obvious in his strategic decisions. His value is likely in things that are difficult to measure: Creating an atmosphere that allows players to play up to their ability, dealing with the media, working the umpires and standing up for your players, promoting the organizational philosophies at the major league level. Lots of guys can make out a good lineup and put in the right players at the right time (though most guys are going to mess up at least sometimes in that regard). The best managers are probably the ones who do those other non-strategic things well.
You mean, the intangibles?
Roman Gal
September 24th, 2009
3:32 pm
I just don’t think keeping Heyward in AAA for 2 months will cost us a shot at the playoffs. Rob from SC
Ok…who hijacked Rob’s name?!
RHR
September 24th, 2009
3:33 pm
Y’all know the Phillies will try to snatch up Gonzo or MFIKY. When they’re on, they’re very, very good. Sure don’t want to face them in the division. Maybe they’ll go to …. KC or somewhere.
RC
September 24th, 2009
3:34 pm
“Y’all know the Phillies will try to snatch up Gonzo or MFIKY. When they’re on, they’re very, very good. Sure don’t want to face them in the division. Maybe they’ll go to …. KC or somewhere.”
My guess for Gonzo would be Houston….not a clue on Soriano.
braves4ever
September 24th, 2009
3:35 pm
Roman Gal, I would agree, Rob would not say that, and I would say Heyward is not going to be in AAA at the start.