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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
2,474 comments Add your comment
McFann Ô
September 19th, 2009
11:16 am
Jake W–
It’s OK. I see your point…know exactly what you’re talking about. Like I said, though, he did turn a “potential” popup into a triple…
I know you’re just defending your guy. He does bust it more times than not, just saying he doesn’t do it all the time. No ones perfect.
Exactly. And that last line, “No one’s perfect”, could not be more true…
jj
September 19th, 2009
11:18 am
When I heard the starting lineup,I wondered why Bobby would bring back Chipper with the Braves on a 7 game winning streak?Chipper said early this year that we could not afford to have automatic outs in the lineup.He was right and he is that out.He’s having a tough year and I don’t understand why Bobby don’t realize it and let him sit or drop him in the order.He dropped Andruw,but this is Hoss.It pisses me off everytime I see Church wearing #25.Bobby needs to care more about winning games and less about respecting Chipper.Oh yeah,about Escabor,he dropped his head when he failed and Bobby should have been there to help him pick it up instead of kicking him and telling him that he’ll get another chance to help tonite.Bad move Bobby,look how good this young man has been playing and you send him back and have him start all over again.Treat all your players the same as you do some of your favorites.I think you have more patience with guys that have the same skill set as you did .When I look back over this season I see more games lost by Bobby Cox and his lack of imagination or vision than I see games lost by Escabor having a breakdown or brainlock.Who should be benched,BC or YE?Mr Wren,you make the call.
Tomahawkin
September 19th, 2009
11:20 am
“4 Scrub relievers…?”
I wouldn’t call Med’s A scrub (I’m probably gonna get Clowned by sticking up for Med’s) Bobby just used him in the wrong spot, starting off an inning on extra rest…Ditto for Booney
Med’s and the defense were the problem that inning…Walking J-Roll to start an innings is a recipe for diaster…
I’m calling out the defense again as well. The braves have a very sub-par defense and it shows at least once or twice in the games against philly
the early 90’s braves prided themselves with good Defense up the middle, that has been something that has been lacking for years
Jake W.
September 19th, 2009
11:21 am
“Has a point in the Braves being successful against the Dodgers and Crads this year, Problem is and this has been said all season by the likes of Brian Jordan and Ron Gant is that they Play to the level of their opposition…Hence the fact that AAA teams like the Reds, Nats and Pirates have given the braves fits all season…”
Personally I don’t feel like its the braves playing to the level of their competition. Whether they lose against the good teams or the bad teams it usually comes the same way. Good pitching wasted by a not so good offensive effort. Maybe you can make the argument that when the pressure is on them they seem to perform the worse. I’m not even sure thats the case. I just think that because of our pitching we are able to compete with the better teams because they keep in you in the game where you do have the chance to win. On the same note, because of our offense we are not able to put away the bad teams that we should because when we don’t score enough runs we allow them to hang around and that gives them confidence when in the 7th they are only down by 1 or 2 runs against us. We have a hard time putting away teams and adding on runs no matter the opponent and we have all year. The only thing that has been steady all year is our starting pitching.
Virginia "old" fan
September 19th, 2009
11:21 am
Enter your comments here
NEVER, NEVER, EVER PITCH TO RYAN HOWARD,
COX IS AN IDIOT, NEVER, NEVER, EVER PITCH TO RYAN HOWARD
MFin04
September 19th, 2009
11:26 am
I’m sure Bobby would bring Soriano on in the 8th to pitch to Ethier with the basesloaded if we had a series with the Dodgers…
Marc from FL
September 19th, 2009
11:28 am
The last It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia was hilarious
oops, off topic
brian elliott
September 19th, 2009
11:29 am
I have to say that reading the blogs here are hilarious. You guys are great! My wife is always asking why I read them. I read it out loud and we both have a great laugh together.. It’s been a hard year but fun at times too. It really is time for a new manager ans some other changes as well. Let’s just keep having fun till the year ends. Keep up the humor and the sarcasm, it is great reading. Go Falcons and we will always love our Braves .. despite Bobby & his craziness!
Marc from FL
September 19th, 2009
11:30 am
Here we are agian with the “don’t pitch to Howard” people. You can’t just walk everyone that hits 40HR a year. And as we saw last night walking him can backfire just as easily, intential walks are the bane of baseball.
MFin04
September 19th, 2009
11:33 am
There have been plenty of times where Chipper, McCann, Loaf, don’t show effort on defense/offense/running the bases. Maybe Esco should have run it out, but lots of guys on the team don’t busted down the line everytime. If everyone on the team hustled down the line like Matty D we would be a better team, but they don’t and we aren’t. But to single out Yunel is a little ridiculous when the other guys don’t. Not to mention it weakens are defense for the rest of the game.
Love those Cox Defenders
September 19th, 2009
11:38 am
Who say Cox doesnt call players out by name and throw them under the bus.Sorry but Cox could be mute and people know of his very public disdain for Yunel. Bobby Cox for bus driver of the year!! Spend the rest of the year counting the ‘lapses’ by Braves players and see who else gets benched.
Mo Pelican (formely Tomahawkya)
September 19th, 2009
11:40 am
What kind of message does it send the locker room to start a guy laboring running the bases as much as Chipper, then bench Escobar for not hustling? What a ridiculous double standard. The good news is the Rockies are starting to look like swoon material, and blowing three run leads (as we’re well aware) can have lingering affects. It must be just a frustrating to players as it is the fans trying and overcome Cox’s nonsense.
Wjones
September 19th, 2009
11:41 am
Two quick things:
1. Hudson DID strike out Howard the first time. Like someone else said, you just can’t walk someone just because. Pitch carefully, yes. Don’t give him anything when behind in the count, certainly. But getting him out has got to be tried at least. It’s not exactly chopped liver coming up behind him.
2. As to the parade of missing persons pitching late in the game, my thought was that if we were resting three major arms, why not use Hudson for an extra inning or two? He had thrown only 81 pitches, seemsed to be going well, and actually handles the bat ok. A 3-1 game doesn’t exactly call for an automatic pinch-hitter, unless it gets past the seventh, or if we are in a situation where runners are in scoring position and it’s two outs. If Hudson pitches at least one more inning, and of course gets through it ok, then Nunez probably doesn’t get used, and we are still in the game, and we get to face Lidge. Just my opinion.
MFin04
September 19th, 2009
11:42 am
Ryan Howard vs the Braves this year:
.344 with 7HRS and 14 RBIS in 16 games.
And he has had 3 2-HR games against the Braves this year.
Tomahawkin
September 19th, 2009
11:43 am
Anytime there is a runner on base, Walk Howard, Nuff Said, I’d rather have Jayson Werth and Ibanez beat us…
MFin04
September 19th, 2009
11:44 am
Tim Hudson is batting .286 on the year, had a hit in the game, and had a 2-run shot the other game lol
, KJ is batting .222 and hit for Hudson, who was actually at 87 pitches….but yeh…KJ is definitely a better hitter, so good that he should hit for Hudson and we should then have to go to Medlen/Acostus and company.
TnBrian
September 19th, 2009
11:45 am
I think what ticked Bobby off more than anything was when the throw went wide Bobby yelled at Yunel to GO,GO and he didn’t even react to his manager’s shouting. Maybe he and Chino talk in Cuban how stubborn the old donk is in private? Some of you can defend this man until your little hearts desire, but if you don’t see a change is needed, then I really don’t know what else to say/write.
Mid Town Joe
September 19th, 2009
11:46 am
The toughest part for the Braves vs Phillies is playing against Howard and Bobby Cox. Re-name the Ted “Little Big Horn”.
Tomahawkin
September 19th, 2009
11:47 am
Howard can hit all the Solo shots he wants against us…I just don’t understand we Bobby pitches to him when there runners on…I usually smell tape measure shot anytime I see Bobby pitch to him with runners on base
Those are the times he usually finishes us off, I think I’m starting to get used to in hence that my blood pressure doesn’t go up as much as it used to when I watch Howard put the game out of reach
MFin04
September 19th, 2009
11:47 am
Some managers believe in the complete game, Bobby Cox doesn’t. He doesn’t even really believe in a pitcher going 8-innings.
Obviously there are always circumstances around complete games, pitching 8-innings, etc….but Bobby never seems to let his guy go that extra inning, be it the 6th,7th,8th,9th inning. He has done it with all the pitchers this year. Of course that one time with Lowe….8 runs…probably should have gotten him after the first 4 or 5 straight hits…but yeh.
Tomahawkin
September 19th, 2009
11:55 am
MFIN 04
Don’t Quote Me on this but the 92 Braves staff had around a dozen complete games, and had I believe around 7 complete game shutouts
Don’t quote me on that but that is proof that Bobby has fallen into the staged pitching cycle of belief that pitchers can’t complete games anymore…
Wjones
September 19th, 2009
11:55 am
“KJ is definitely a better hitter, so good that he should hit for Hudson and we should then have to go to Medlen/Acostus and company.”
OK, 87 instead of 81; I stand corrected. I certainly wasn’t arguing that Hudson was a better hitter than KJ. My point was that he probably had at least one more good inning in him, considering he pitched well his last inning, his pitch count was not that high, he was going on 5 days rest, and his pitch count was low his last game. Plus, Cox was resting 3 major pitchers, and if we catch up he could always use Soriano in the 9th. At that point you have to weigh using a pinch-hitter vs. going deep in the bullpen. With Hudson still pitching effectively, and he not being an automatic out, with the game still close, and the bullpen being short-handed, I think I leave Hudson in for one more inning. Now if there is a runner on second or third, and there is two outs, maybe not. But any other situation I think I leave Hudson in. Medlen was rusty, Boone was in need of WD40, Acosta is an extreme hit or miss, and Nunez hadn’t thrown a pitch since being called up. The longer Hudson pitches, the less likely that we have to rely on one or more of these options. And if the score is tied, or if it is still close in the ninth, we probably see Soriano. Again, I’m relying on 20-20 hindsight. Again, just my opinion.
David O'Brien
September 19th, 2009
12:03 pm
I know everybody’s switching their sets to the Versus channel for KU and Duke in beautiful Lawrence, Kan., right? Get over there, people. The Jayhawks and Dookies are about to kick it off.
Danga
September 19th, 2009
12:03 pm
The criticism of Bobby’s use of relievers last night stems from the week long management. For example, running EOF out there against the Mets with the game well in hand for the 3rd night in a row. Meanwhile, you have the Phil’s coming to town with all their big time LH bats. You want your best lefty available for this series, right? I like Bobby. I want him back next year, but the criticism there is valid.
Danga
September 19th, 2009
12:07 pm
Looks like I picked the Dookies to cover in that one. God only knows why.
MFin04
September 19th, 2009
12:08 pm
Wjones – I was agreeing with you. The marginal upgrade of KJ over Hudson, isn’t worth the risk of Medlen/Logan/Acostus pitching in the 8th in a 2-run game. Let Huddy hit, see what happens. He’s a good hitter and has above average speed for this team. Then let him pitch the 8th . He looked really good except for 2 pitches to Ryan Howard.
Wayne in Utah
September 19th, 2009
12:10 pm
Very quietly, Escobar must go this winter. No talk about it or hinting towards it, but I go back to my mid summer contentions that he could bring back a valuable piece (hard hitting outfielder or top third base prospect).
Make a play for JJ Hardy to play shortstop, but trade high with Escobar.
Bobby (I manage on instincts and my (rather rotund) gut feeling...alone) Cox
September 19th, 2009
12:13 pm
Regarding the comment earlier about how game situations dictate managerial moves…actions or inactions. Well, you have it 100% correct…except…and as we are still mathematically in this thing…my actions and inactions have cost us more than I dare remember.
I should have known that Jordan Schafer…who looked so good during the spring was injured…did not let anyone know the severity of his injury and therefore made me look like a fool.
I should have known that Jeff Francouer had been under performing for the better part of 1 1/2 years…and should have sat him (demoted…may have worked if it was more than 3 frickin’ days) and let Matt (golden gloves is more like it…) Diaz in RF. Diaz is a defensive liability…but what could he have done if he had another 150 – 175 AB’s this year? The boy can hit…(.313 career BA)!!!
I should have know that Kelly Johnson was a flash in the pan and gave him way to many AB’s (290) this year that Greg Norton (wasted 70 AB’s) was all used up before we left spring training. Should have figured out how not to let Diory Hernandez and his useless (85 AB’s) bat get on the field.
Should have sat Chipper more! Used Prado more at third…or Infante (when not injured).
But worse thing I did…was mishandle a fairly decent bullpen. Should have known that my very good (overall…now) starting pitchers…could have gone deeper into games. Really screwed this one up …royally!
But I am still in charge and last time I checked…I have more than 2400 wins under my belt. My time is running out…and I know it better than anyone!!!
But guess what…
I STILL BELIEVE
Wayne in Utah
September 19th, 2009
12:14 pm
MFin04
Hudson over KJ?
Keep talking, the hole’s getting deeper. Need I remind you that Hudson is coming back from major surgery?
Tiger Woods
September 19th, 2009
12:16 pm
DOB,
I’m from Nebraska GO HUSKERS!!!!!! I believe the Huskers will beat the Jayhawks in Lawerence this year to win the Big 12 North. I guess time will tell. Go Braves and D-Backs today!
Danga
September 19th, 2009
12:17 pm
I don’t know Wayne…I would rather not see Esco go. The guy is a bonehead sometimes, but he makes plays. I love watching the guy field his position.
Tomahawkin
September 19th, 2009
12:19 pm
Where would this AWFense be if we had traded Esco and Big Red (Hanson) for Peavy in the offseason…?
Looks like the Padres were trying to screw us over in that proposed deal
Tomahawkin
September 19th, 2009
12:19 pm
And the Idea of trading KJ for Ludwick…We missed out on that one!
Danga
September 19th, 2009
12:21 pm
Hudson made it through the 7th against the bottom of the order. The top of the order was back up in the 8th. Remember what they did to him last time around? Francisco double off CF wall. Utley fly ball to CF warning track. Howard HR #2. I think going to the BP was the right move at the time.
The Bird and Indian (Reggie)
September 19th, 2009
12:25 pm
Wait, so Chipper, Garrett Loaf Anderson, LaRoche, Mccann, and Nate can jog to first but Escobar can’t. Bobby needs to retire. He has some mess with Escobar off the field and it’s obvious. You don’t pull your best fielder and most clutch hitter in a game you have to win. Let’s all watch tonight when Loaf sees a ball get by the catcher and doesn’t flinch at first to take an extra base and let’s see him let a ball get past him to the wall for an easy double. We’ll also see Chipper backhand a ball that comes right to him and botch it or see him let Yunel get everything that comes to his side. If you pull someone for that Bobby than you need to pull someone everytime.
O.J.
September 19th, 2009
12:26 pm
I think after last nights game everyone can see why Bobby doesnt like to use any bullpen arm other than Gonzalez, Moylan and Soriano. ‘A cost us’ then Valdez gave up huge runs. Should have been Moylan in there to pitch with the bases loaded and one out. Pretty poor managing on Bobby’s part to put an inexperienced kid such as Acosta in that that situation, you should always bring in the ‘go to’ guy, doesnt matter if you are down a few runs or not, you need to keep it close, because if Moylan gets out of that inning unscathed and McCann hits that 2 run jack, its tied and theres a different mindset in the game. But instead we were trying to come from behind again. Not good.
LT-A blogger
September 19th, 2009
12:28 pm
I think Ryan Howard’s gonna name his next son Turner.
Pete
September 19th, 2009
12:31 pm
Tomahawkin I checked and the ‘92 Braves had 26 complete games with 14 shutouts, which ranked them #2 and #1 in the Nl, respectively. The great majority of those (16 and
came from Smoltz and Glavine (Avery had 2 and 2).
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ATL/1992.shtml
Roman Gal
September 19th, 2009
12:35 pm
“To see the Braves uniform on that cover twice in one season is awesome in and of itself.” –Jason Heyward
Ok. I loved him before, but now I really love him.
Tomahawkin
September 19th, 2009
12:36 pm
Pete
Holy Crap…I knew That there were several pitchers on that 92 Team that had a few, but 26 complete games as a staff in 1992 is unreal…!
And 14 complete game shutouts! Cheese-Whiz!
Pete
September 19th, 2009
12:37 pm
“The great majority of those (16 and came from Smoltz and Glavine (Avery had 2 and 2). ”
OOPS….meant to say 16 and 8 came from Smoltz and Avery…..I think McFann hacked my account lol
Jake W.
September 19th, 2009
12:37 pm
“I think Ryan Howard’s gonna name his next son Turner.”
Was thinking the same thing last night and you beat me to saying it. One day Shea Jones and Turner Howard are going to make some noise in this league.
Roman Gal
September 19th, 2009
12:38 pm
Very quietly, Escobar must go this winter. Wayne
We’re in disagreement. I don’t think this team would be better with out him. We might get a good haul for him, but we’d still be losing him and his production. I don’t see how that could be a good thing.
Wayne in Utah
September 19th, 2009
12:39 pm
LT-A
Hilarious!
Steve from OH
September 19th, 2009
12:40 pm
We might get a good haul for him, but we’d still be losing him and his production. I don’t see how that could be a good thing.
Agreed. Plus, I don’t see how we’d fill SS with him gone.
Mike in VA
September 19th, 2009
12:41 pm
DOB – With Chipper’s struggles the last half, what do you think of the idea of him hitting from only the right side. Work on his swing from the right this winter and bat only from the right next year. Has to be easier to figure out one swing instead of two. He has been one of the best switch hitters in history, but maybe with his age, it is time to simplify. We do need a good stick from the right.
Pete
September 19th, 2009
12:41 pm
Tomahawkin, you may be too young to recall, but back in 65 and 66, Sandy Koufax had 27 complete games EACH YEAR…with 8 and 5 shutouts, respectively. In 63, he had 20 CG and 11 shutouts……my how times have changed….
chin music
September 19th, 2009
12:41 pm
DOB, do you and Carroll have anything on the Prelude-to-Basketball Bowl? e.g., the person whose team loses has to ask Bobby Cox why in hell Braves’ pitchers ever throw a ball near the plate to Ryan Howard.
Tomahawkin
September 19th, 2009
12:44 pm
Sandy Koufax
Is Before My time
Add to those previously mentioned stats that is wasn’t uncommon for pitchers to throw 300 innings per season as well
Roman Gal
September 19th, 2009
12:45 pm
I don’t see how we’d fill SS with him gone.
We’d have to trade for one, and since I don’t think any of the shortstops that are either as good or better than Esco are available, I don’t think it makes sense.
Jake W.
September 19th, 2009
12:45 pm
“Very quietly, Escobar must go this winter. No talk about it or hinting towards it, but I go back to my mid summer contentions that he could bring back a valuable piece (hard hitting outfielder or top third base prospect).”
Besides the fact that most teams don’t seem to be as willing in giving up top prospects as they use to, to trade this guy right now would make absolutely no sense. A cheap and very good shortstop who gives you great production in rbi situations on a team that is offensively lacking and does not have as big a budget as they use to. Tommy Hanson is here now and Jason Heyward is coming. We are building a nice young nucleus. If Freeman and Heyward pan out there is your power hitting corner outfielder and a 1st baseman. Don’t mess up a good thing. Hopefully Frank Wren knows this.
Steve from OH
September 19th, 2009
12:47 pm
RG–plus, we’d be paying him 400K next year, so in order to get a new SS we’d probably have to take on salary and we probably can’t afford it. I’m sure there is a really creative way that Wren has already brainstormed that would address all of these needs, but I’m not gonna spend time trying to figure it out right now.
Bad Scooter
September 19th, 2009
12:48 pm
DOB, I know you aren’t a big rap guy, but what do you think of Jay-Z?
brent a.
September 19th, 2009
12:49 pm
Anybody see this gem of a quote from Bobby Cox . . .
“Why not walk him? ‘When?’ Cox said. ‘With two men on?’”
(from Mark Bradley’s blog)
Really Bobby? Did you happen to miss Howard’s first two homers, which came with 1 man on, and ZERO men on?
Roman Gal
September 19th, 2009
12:51 pm
We are building a nice young nucleus.
Certainly. I think this team could be very good next year. I wouldn’t say we’re rebuilding anymore, we’re competing. You don’t trade away one of your best players when you’re competing.
Wayne in Utah
September 19th, 2009
12:51 pm
RG
Hey, don’t misunderstand me. Escobar has been valuable to us this year. We haven’t won with him. He costs us runs. Also, this sort of attitude results in other potential issues that can sink a team. I am not talking about 2010, but for the next 5-10 years, we would be better off with a good haul for him, and take our chances with the return that we receive.
This kind of attitude sometimes turns into prima donnas when they are allowed to continue. Manny Ramirez types of problems.
Get a great haul for him now. Loose the attitude. This is not a Bobby thing, as some would have us believe.
GTSteve
September 19th, 2009
12:52 pm
They will address the offense this offseason, and then the bullpen will suck next year….they just don’t have the resources to do both
Roman Gal
September 19th, 2009
12:53 pm
we’d be paying him 400K next year
Exactly.
Tomahawkin
September 19th, 2009
12:54 pm
Bad Scooter
Old Jay-Z is Good (exepletive)
I don’t care for his new stuff that much but he still beats the hell out of that Lil Wayne Pop-Tart Garbage!
Jake W.
September 19th, 2009
1:00 pm
“Certainly. I think this team could be very good next year. I wouldn’t say we’re rebuilding anymore, we’re competing. You don’t trade away one of your best players when you’re competing.”
Agreed. Frank Wren has done a good job in adding parts via trade like JJ and Nate and not giving up talent like Schafer, Hanson, Medlen and Heyward.
“Hey, don’t misunderstand me. Escobar has been valuable to us this year. We haven’t won with him. He costs us runs. Also, this sort of attitude results in other potential issues that can sink a team. I am not talking about 2010, but for the next 5-10 years, we would be better off with a good haul for him, and take our chances with the return that we receive.”
The guy has made improvements this year whether some want to admit it or not. Escobar is not Manny. The guy plays the game hard he just has “lapses” like Bobby said. He isn’t out there turning circles at SS the way Manny does in the field and laughing about it. Manny has gotten worse with time, Esco is getting better. So quick to give up on people some of you. I just hope bobby isn’t the same.
Jeff R
September 19th, 2009
1:00 pm
Yep, let’s trade Vazquez for a big bat. Of course, we don’t know, at this point, if Hudson will fully recover for reconstructive surgery, or if he’ll quite be the pitcher he used to be, but let’s trade Javy anyway, shall we?
Little word of caution: Hudson’s 34 with a reconstructed elbow. Vazquez is 33 with no major arm or shoulder problems in his history. I’d be a little reluctant to move Vazquez.
Wayne in Utah
September 19th, 2009
1:02 pm
RG and Steve
I never said you have to get a SS with equal or better stats than Escobar, only that the haul makes it worth it. You folks are too hung up on his affordability, I think.
There are SS’s available. There are hitters better than Escobar. We could be better without him, if the right pieces are added (either in the trade or through some other acquisition).
I just think when you have a problem, you solve it. Escobar is a problem.
Roman Gal
September 19th, 2009
1:03 pm
Get a great haul for him now. Loose the attitude. This is not a Bobby thing, as some would have us believe.
The problem would be getting a haul for him. I mean, look at what the Indians got for Cliff Lee, the same Cliff Lee who won the Cy Young Award last year. Would you be comfortable getting scraps for Escobar? I wouldn’t be. Besides, he’s still under control for 4 more years. I just don’t think it’s possible to get good value for him. Bad attitude or no, it wouldn’t be worth it to me.
Steve from OH
September 19th, 2009
1:03 pm
Jeff R–Yeah, good points, but don’t overstate the TJ surgery. It’s not like he had reconstructive shoulder surgery. He had TJ. Great recovery rates, relatively low risk. Oh, and not to mention that he’s pitched effectively in his return this year.
nfieldr
September 19th, 2009
1:05 pm
DOB said
I know everybody’s switching their sets to the Versus channel for KU and Duke in beautiful Lawrence, Kan., right? Get over there, people. The Jayhawks and Dookies are about to kick it off.
You know, I’d love to. But, alas, I have DirecTV, so therefore no Versus at the present time *sigh*
Wayne in Utah
September 19th, 2009
1:05 pm
Gotta run. Been gone all week, and my honey-do is a mile long.
Go Braves!
Jeff R
September 19th, 2009
1:05 pm
Another, braoder consideration about the starting rotation. Starting in ‘10, Lowe is in his late thirties, Kawakami, Hudson and Vazquez are all in their mid thirties.
Anyway you slice it, 3/5s of the rotation is getting up their in age. Not saying that any of these guys will loose anything between now and next season (we don’t really know about Hudson), but its a consideration.
Hudson and Vazquez are roughly the same, age-wise. In terms of arm health and fitness?
Necromancer
September 19th, 2009
1:06 pm
I would rather see Cox go than Escobar. Escobar has been doing pretty danged good this year.
Just because Escobar doesn’t fit Bobby’s requirement of “mediocre” doesn’t mean the Braves need to move him.
Bobby Cox is the one that needs to go…not Yunel Escobar.
That’s my opinion…I’m not trying to stir up a hornet’s nest here.
Steve from OH
September 19th, 2009
1:08 pm
Hudson and Vazquez are roughly the same, age-wise. In terms of arm health and fitness?
They’re roughly the same in every way. Statistically, over their careers, they’re almost exact equals. In age, they’re almost exact equals. In salary, they’re again almost exact equals. The only difference is that Vazquez uses strikeouts as opposed to Hudson who uses groundballs to get outs.
Roman Gal
September 19th, 2009
1:09 pm
Escobar is a problem.
That’s where we disagree. It’s not necessarily about affordability as it is about value to the team.
Danga
September 19th, 2009
1:09 pm
Jeff R…You can’t just ignore career numbers either. Vazquez is having a career year. Are the chances of him repeating it the same as Hudson’s ability to return to form? I have no idea. Just something to think about.
Necromancer
September 19th, 2009
1:11 pm
Someone (I can’t recall) mentioned that there have been other guys on here that lolly-gag around worse than Escobar.
Why doesn’t Bobby ever bench Loaf on one of his many half-hearted plays?
Jeff R
September 19th, 2009
1:11 pm
Steve from OH… Hudson’s done well in three starts. That’s encouraging. But we need to see more from him to be definitive.
If I was Wren, I gamble on him (as you suggest, a smaller gamble given the nature of the surgery). But I wouldn’t trade Vazquez. I do believe he’s coming into his own.
To my mind, Kawakami is the obvious choice to trade. Plenty of staffs may view him as a number three starter, which is what the Braves were expecting when they signed him (as I recall). So, I do think he has good, not great, trade value.
Pete
September 19th, 2009
1:12 pm
Brent, I was thinking the exact same thing. Strange.
Jeff R
September 19th, 2009
1:13 pm
Steve from OH… My point is that ther jury is still out on Hudson. He’s just coming off rehab. He may well regain his old form, but nothing definite yet.
As I wrote a moment ago, I’d keep Vazquez and Hudson.
Jake W.
September 19th, 2009
1:14 pm
“You can’t just ignore career numbers either. Vazquez is having a career year. Are the chances of him repeating it the same as Hudson’s ability to return to form? I have no idea. Just something to think about.”
It is something to think about but Renteria also had some career years here too. Sometimes for one reason or another certain players just seem to thrive in certain situations over others. I think that may be the case with Vazquez but I could be wrong. I hope i’m right though and we find a way to keep the guy because he has done great this season.
Jeff R
September 19th, 2009
1:15 pm
Danga… Vazquez could be having a career year, but I think he’s maturing as a pitcher. Given his whip, etc., I think he’s demonstrating more command than previously. Or doing so more consistently.
Random
September 19th, 2009
1:16 pm
Rob from SC (September 19th, 2009 10:53 am): “Does Chipper, Anderson, LaRoche, McCann run that ball out. No they don’t “
Of course they do — in that game, in that situation, yes, they do.
Jeff R
September 19th, 2009
1:17 pm
Jake W.,
Agree. From what I’ve read, management has thought highly of Vazquez for some time. And I believe Atlanta is a good fit for Vazquez. Seems to fit his personality.
Danga
September 19th, 2009
1:18 pm
Jeff R…Keeping Vazquez and Hudson would be nice, but now we have money problems. Kawakami will make 6.7 mill next year. Vazquez and Hudson both make around 12. That money will likely have to be made up somewhere. I wouldn’t expect payroll to budge much this year seeing the crowds at Turner Field.
Steve from OH
September 19th, 2009
1:18 pm
Jeff R–Kawakami is, of course, the obvious guy to go if you want to build the best staff possible. However, for reasons Random has elaborated on, it’s not likely that he’ll go, and the fact that trading Vazquez will free up more payroll to acquire a bat and perhaps some bullpen help. Do I think he’s a lock to stay here? No–if Wren can cut Tom Glavine, he can trade Kenshin Kawakami. Do I think it’s likely? No. Would I prefer to see him traded and see LM give us the $$ to sign a bat? Hell yes, but like Mick Jagger says, you can’t always get what you want, right?
Looking at KK’s stats, I do think his performance his year has been fairly representative of what he’s likely to do next year (I’d project him at about a 4.15 or so ERA), which is great since he’ll be slotted as our 5th starter, so I’m not terribly concerned about him tanking next year.
Steve from OH
September 19th, 2009
1:19 pm
Enter your comments here
Frankie Wren
September 19th, 2009
1:19 pm
Statistically the same?
Hudson is 147-78 over his career while Javy has been a .500 pitcher. Little bit of difference there don’t you think? Javy has been outstanding but he is our trade chip for some bats. Hudson if healthy will do fine next year.
Random
September 19th, 2009
1:20 pm
Jeff R (September 19th, 2009 1:11 pm): “To my mind, Kawakami is the obvious choice to trade. Plenty of staffs may view him as a number three starter, which is what the Braves were expecting when they signed him (as I recall). So, I do think he has good, not great, trade value.”
Kawakami will not be traded.
PS: Agree with you on Vazquez.
Steve from OH
September 19th, 2009
1:20 pm
Hudson is 147-78 over his career while Javy has been a .500 pitcher. Little bit of difference there don’t you think?
Since when does a pitcher’s W/L record tell us anything about their abilities?
Was Nolan Ryan simply a 1 game over .500 per year pitcher?
Steve from OH
September 19th, 2009
1:22 pm
Plus, you free up more cash by trading Vazquez and get players in return. That’s a pretty big consideration for a team with a set payroll like Atlanta.
Keep in mind, I’m talking from a fan’s perspective. I’ve got no idea what baseball’s internal trade market looks like, and I’ve got no idea what the payroll/revenue looks like, OR what KK’s impact has been on the revenue. If he’s not generating any significant amount of revenue from Japan, he might be the one to go. But I don’t know.
Kenshin Kawakami
September 19th, 2009
1:23 pm
If Wren trades me, it will kill all of Random’s happiness.
Danga
September 19th, 2009
1:23 pm
Most often made mistake on a baseball blog. Mention W/L record as a testament to a pitcher’s ability.
Jeff R
September 19th, 2009
1:23 pm
Danga, budget is a big concenr, no doubt. But the Braves are where they’re at because of a marked improvement in pitching over 2008. If I were Wren, I’d trade to find a why to retain Vazquez and Hudson.
Steve from OH… As DOB remarked a while ago, Kawakami is an awfully expensive number 5 strter (I know, Hudson makes a more expensive number 5, though in terms of dollars, you can argue that Hanson is a number 5 guy).
In terms of acquiring a power bat, Wren may find takers if Kawakami is package with another plaer or two (who that would be, I don’t know).
Jeff R
September 19th, 2009
1:25 pm
Random… Can’t argue. But it is telling that Cox was more than willing to bump Kawakami from the rotation in favor of Hudson. Earlier speculation was that Hudson would work out of the bullpen.
Jeff R
September 19th, 2009
1:27 pm
Shouldn’t be typing so fast: “I’d trade to find a why to retain Vazquez and Hudson.”
I’d TRY to find a reason to retain Vazquez and Hudson!
Steve from OH
September 19th, 2009
1:27 pm
In terms of acquiring a power bat, Wren may find takers if Kawakami is package with another plaer or two (who that would be, I don’t know).
Absolutely. Like I said, you or I don’t know what the market for these players truly looks like–we’re not insiders. As for the KK/money thing, his salary has been very fair, so I don’t think that will be a huge concern for the FO. Besides, I think saying “oh, so-and-so is a 5th starter and he’s overpaid” is kinda stupid–there’s no need to “classify” your starters like that and besides–it’s a sunk cost, and if his pay is commensurate with his performance, everything is fine in my book.
Jeff R
September 19th, 2009
1:29 pm
Steve from OH… good point, but does managemment look at it like that?
monty
September 19th, 2009
1:31 pm
We lost last night not because Esco didn’t hustle on a sure out to the second baseman. We lost because once again the awfense didn’t show in a big game. Clearly Happ wasn’t healthy and looked hittable for a change and the other dude came in and we couldn’t string together even a few hits. Not many games where you beat the Phillies on pitching and no hitting.
Steve from OH
September 19th, 2009
1:32 pm
I would think, Jeff, particularly in KK’s case. Now, if there’s a player getting say, 10MM per season and performing at a level worth 10MM per season, but there is a guy making 400K per season performing at 10MM per season, I think the FO would have an easy choice on their hands.
Needless to say, there’s a ton of variables in play here, and I don’t have nearly the brains, information, time or energy to tackle them all right now, LOL!
brent a.
September 19th, 2009
1:34 pm
I also thought it was strange that Directv dropped versus (I currently have Uverse, but not completely by choice), but had Directv until recently.
I can’t help but wonder if the new ESPN/SEC deal drove up prices, leading DTV to make a cut where it thought was reasonable.
Why not throw Versus into the “pay extra” tier?
Jeff R
September 19th, 2009
1:35 pm
Steve from OH… Ditto!
Tiger Woods
September 19th, 2009
1:36 pm
Tim Hudson has a career ERA of 3.49 and Vazquez career ERA is 4.21. How is that similar at all?
Mid Town Joe
September 19th, 2009
1:36 pm
Speaking of rain, if you get a chance, I highly recommend this show!
Jake W.
September 19th, 2009
1:36 pm
“As DOB remarked a while ago, Kawakami is an awfully expensive number 5 strter (I know, Hudson makes a more expensive number 5, though in terms of dollars, you can argue that Hanson is a number 5 guy).”
I think we have to look more so at the value of our rotation as a whole instead of this much money for the number 5 because if Hanson turns out to be the ace, we sure are not paying him number 1 money. Another thing to consider is if Hudson does what was mentioned on Bowmans blog (I think) about an extension or something to that sort. I’m not exactly sure what it was. It sounds like both men, Hudson and Vazquez, are willing to do some things to make it work for the team and themselves. I think that has to be a plus in regards to Wren and the decision that he might make this winter.
Not to mention I think someone said it earlier we don’t know what the trade market or free agency will be like this offseason. We can try to figure it out now but it will probably just be best to see what kind of situations we are dealing with in the market and with this team come the offseason. Thats why I liked the idea of Wren not trading Javy at the deadline. Don’t know what things will be like this winter. It may be more bargains on free agency and the trade market may be slow. Don’t know.