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670 comments Add your comment
KC
September 16th, 2009
10:53 am
BravesfaninWis, not so fast. It ain’t over yet. I THOUGHT it was over less than a week ago, but then the Braves won 5 straight while the Rockies lost 4 straight. And all of a sudden, and insurmountable (this late in the year) 8-game deficit has been almost instantly cut in half.
With 18 games left to play, a 4-game deficit is big. No doubt. And they also have the Giants ahead of them. BUT… while 5 days ago I felt it would take an absolute miracle, I don’t feel that way anymore.
Overcoming 2 teams and a 4-game deficit this late is unlikely, but it is perfectly plausible. No one should be holding their breath. However…
The Giants are sending Cain to the mound today against the Rockies. IF San Fran wins tonight, and the Braves do to… Atlanta is suddenly 3 games out.
Still a big gap this late? Yes. But at 3 games out with 17 game left to play, would the Braves be firmly in the race? Absolutely.
McFann :Ô:
September 16th, 2009
10:57 am
fastasballs–
Wow…Nice comparison. This trade does seem to be working, ha…
McCann does his best work in the 5th hole if I recall
Yeah he does…Well, his work in the 6th hole is pretty good, too, but he’s spent significantly less time in that spot (257 PA as opposed to 933 in the 5th spot).
The reason can’t be two lefties back-back because Loaf has batted 5th behind McCann most of the season.
Yeah, there seems to be no REAL reason for it…so LaRoche can’t bat 4th because he does his best work in the 7th spot, well, hello! BMac does his best work in the fifth spot, but I don’t see Bobby moving him there.
KC
September 16th, 2009
11:00 am
BravesfaninWis, also, in regard to inconsistency… ask the Dodgers fans and Phillies fans if they don’t feel exactly the same way about their teams. Since June 28th, the Braves have really only played 1 stretch of bad baseball. They still have a decent chance to finish with a win total in the upper 80’s, despite entering the all-star break below .500.
That would say something about the kind of team the Braves became as the year went along. A lot of big changes occurred mid-season. They may have been a tad too late. We’ll know in a few weeks. But there is EVERY reason for Braves fans to look forward to next season.
David O'Brien
September 16th, 2009
11:00 am
KC, good points about the Braves’ chances, etc.
Funny how you don’t see Lou Vales on here ranting and raving like he did day after day when I wrote stories that said the Braves’ playoff chances were dimming that time was running out. He and a few others blistered us daily for even insinuating that the Braves had ANY chance at all. Like we were supposed to write that it was absolutely, positively over, when the Braves were seven or so out with 20-something to go.
Even though we made it clear they’re chances were slim to none, we never wrote — because we do like to use facts occasionally — that they were absolutely out. Because they weren’t. It was a long, long shot, and now it’s still a rather long shot.
Now I see some here criticizing me (and others) for writing that it was too late, after that five-game skid against Florida and Cincy. Again, we never wrote that they were absolutely out of it (a columnist might have; I’m not sure of that). I did write that their chances were slim and none, and slim was headed out the door, blah blah blah. But I always tried to make it clear, until you write “they are mathematically eliminated,” then there is at least some chance. Even if, as I wrote, that not many stranger things have happened than a baseball team overcoming such a big deficit, along with several teams in front of it, with barely 20 games left in a season.
But this all just goes to show, you can’t please all the “fans” — judging by how early many bailed on this team a month or more ago, you’ve got to question their claim to being fans — of a team most of the time, or almost any of the time.
fastasballs
September 16th, 2009
11:00 am
KC, I find myself strangely feeling optimistic about their chances as well. They still have 12 games with the Nats/Mets. Phillies/Marlins for 6, but all are at home. In fact 12 of the last 18 are at home.
The main reason I feel good is the starting pitching has been fantastic. Even while they lost those 5 games the pitching was for the most part very good.
Also they have found some offense since McLouth has come off the DL. He’s swinging the stick well & LaRoche is firmly in a groove. There are others as well like Diaz & Escobar, even McCann seems to be coming out of his funk.
The bullpen is rested a bit as well so if they were ever going to go on a winning streak longer than 5 games then this is it. Team looks good & the schedule is in their favor.
richbrave
September 16th, 2009
11:01 am
GOV. CT:
Some folks deal in possibilities. Others can’t see the forest for the trees. I roll with you on that take. All things are possible – with a higher payroll. Two years ago, folks couldn’t see the BRAVES with a payroll about 83 million. Now they can’t see any possibility with a payroll above 95 million. No way. Well I say – WAY.
wjones
September 16th, 2009
11:06 am
A few random thoughts from reviewing the blog:
1. The rosters above, perhaps intentionally, are assigning $400,000 to the minumum wage guys under our control. While that might be ok for a Conrad or a Blanco, we will most definitely raise the salaries of JJ, Hanson, Prado, Escobar, and Medlen. JJ and Escobar in particular should receive a decent bump-up, and perhaps Hanson and Prado as well. You have to figure that into the equation.
2. We won’t be able to trade Lowe without assuming some salary–maybe $3m per year, maybe as much as $5m per year, or a gradual decrease. But even if we assume $5m per year of his salary it would free up $10m in payroll, enough to sign Hudson probably. And maybe we get a decent player or prospect along with the salary relief.
3. Gonzalez may stress us out at time watching him work, but he has had a great second half as he has apparently regained arm strength. And folks, if your idea of a closer is someone who comes in every night and gets out the side one-two-three, you better reserve a room in Dr. Frankenstein’s lab and get to building, because the last time I checked humans all make mistakes. Even Rivera and Eck, as close to perfect as they come, have major blown saves in the World Series.
4. I know we give Frenchy a hard time on the blog at times, but I’m just thinking. If I am pulling down a salary of over $3 million, and I was a car short, how hard is it to go to a dealership and buy another one? Or even lease it? I’m just saying. It’s not like no one knows him, and I’m sure he could provide a pay stub.
Anders
September 16th, 2009
11:06 am
Tell me-do you think that the Braves will win a NL East pennant with Chipper and Hanson before the Mets win one with Santana and Wright? I do. (Lew)
Who knows? If the injured Mets come back healthy and they spend the Delgado and Wagner money wisely I believe you have to consider the Mets contenders again. They have Wright, Reyes, Beltran, Santana and K-Rod. Not a bad core.
The Braves have to get offense. Not sure how unless they unload some pitching. Plus Chipper will be making more and producing less imo over the next three years. Also, and I hate to bring this up but other than Hudson who wasn’t counted on this year the Braves have been relatively healthy this year. We all know you can’t count on that, especially when one key guy is a catcher and the other is 37. But you asked my opinion about future success so it has to be considered.
As for your answer on the Lowe deal, I read that as it wasn’t a good deal but because we have these cheap young pitchers we can afford it. OK, but that’s not really how to critique it imo. Bottom line is he hasn’t pitched up to expectations and he’s tying up a lot of money for the next three years in an area where he’s really not needed and the money could sure bring the bat you crave.
Kind of like Perez for my Mets. Except cheaper – by $24 mil.Since we’re talking cheaper today.
fastasballs
September 16th, 2009
11:06 am
DOB, Sons of Anarchy is ramping up for a great season. All hell is getting ready to break loose in the coming episodes.
What do you think about Mad Men this season? It’s really dragging compared to last season or to this point anyway. What’s your take on it?
monty
September 16th, 2009
11:06 am
KK at 7 mil. in the bullpen all next year aint happening. Also KJ riding the pines at 3.75 mil. aint happening either.
pryguy
September 16th, 2009
11:11 am
I agree with most on trying to re-sign Adam to a 2 or 3 year deal. He seems comfortable with us and has been pretty solid since we acquired him.
What I do not agree with some on here is going after Holliday. I am not sold on a guy who went from Colorado to Oakland and was simply average. He is now hitting in a much better lineup where he is not expected to carry the greatest of the load with Pujols hitting in there along with other quality hitters. If we want to get someone of substance, I don’t think Matt H. is our guy, especially at the price it will cost. Doesn’t make sense to pay that much for someone who has been pretty inconsistent since his departure from Colorado. I’d rather go after a better known commodity. If there is one out there to obtain.
David O'Brien
September 16th, 2009
11:11 am
Fastasballs: There will be blood in little Charming, Calif. Much blood. And great drama.
Oh, and I think Mad Men has proceeded at a typical, interesting, character-defining pace. That’s why the show is a bit polarizing. Most love or just don’t like it, or get it, or whatever. I’m at rapt attention.
Lew
September 16th, 2009
11:14 am
wjones-You may be right that the Braves will offer some raises to some of their un-arb eligible players, but it won’t be all that much. They have NO obligation to do any such thing until they are arb eligible after they have played for three seasons.
I certainly wouldn’t count on Hanson receiving much of anything (unless they try to sign him long term, which they won’t after half a season. Same for Medlen. Same for Jurrjens (though HIM they should try to sign long term-NOW).
Some of those you mentioned will be arb eligible and they will receive rasies, but why do it until you have to when you have salary limits?
Daslied
September 16th, 2009
11:14 am
McFann, your boy seems to just be taking one for the team.
Here are the “best” cleanup hitters we have, based on at least 100 PA in that spot:
Chipper – .926 (1965 PA)
McCann .820 (660 PA)
Anderson – .818 (3209 PA)
LaRoche – .789 (938 PA)
Church – .786 (142 PA)
Can you imagine Chipper hitting cleanup with the year he’s having, considering he’s always been statistically better as the #3? Unfortunately, BMac is the best option we have.
Lew
September 16th, 2009
11:16 am
I also don’t see the Braves paying both Church and KJ anywhere near $3.75 million. Better to try to trade them or just non tender them. We would still have Diaz as fourth outfielder and could use that $7+ mil for a much better outfielder.
Tell It Like It Is
September 16th, 2009
11:16 am
Lew,
I do not believe that the Braves can win without a big bopper, a lead off hitter with speed, four good starters(Vazquez,Jurrgens,KK,Hanson), two good stoppers in the pen(Soriano,Gonzales or some else(??) and a good outfield- McLouth or someone else(left field), a speedy centerfielder(not Schafer) and Heyward(right field).
If there were a salary cap in baseball like the other major sports, the Braves would make sure that they kept and paid the best players what they should be paid. They are not doing that now within the Liberty Mutual salary cap. There are 18 teams in MLB with total salaries lower than the Braves. There are 10 teams with total salaries higher than the Braves. Of those teams with higher salaries,only the Mets are lower in the standings. Of course the best valued team is the Marlins who are above the Braves in the standings with a total team salary of $36.8 million. Players should be paid subject to performance not longevity. The value the Braves get from the 11 players making $400,000 is outstanding when compared with the performance of the seven players making $5 million or more($4.4 million vs. $69.8 million). The decision that Wren has is simple. Win now by trading some of the young $400,000 players for a big bopper or playing the young guys like the Marlins do and win games and World Series. I prefer a salary cap while playing the young guys now. Its a better investment as long as the farm system remains strong. It IS What It IS.
You all are Cox apologists
September 16th, 2009
11:19 am
HEY APOLOGISTS,
That sweep against the Reds, losing 2 of 3 to San Diego, and the last two blown games against the Marlins KILLED this team.
YOU SEE,
All of you IDIOTS who kept saying “we don’t need a sweep, we can just win 2 of 3″, how are you feeling now?
If we had ONLY taken care of business against the Nationals (we lost a series to them earlier this year), Padres, and Reds, we would be in a better position currently. Teams we shouldn’t have lost series’ to.
Oh yeah, PLEASE, NO MORE BOBBY IN 2010.
ncscoots
September 16th, 2009
11:24 am
Even though [DOB] made it clear they’re chances were slim to none, we never wrote [Braves are definitely out of it] — because we do like to use facts occasionally
Cry from the usual blog hooligans: “Facts? **** ‘em.”
wjones
September 16th, 2009
11:25 am
“wjones-You may be right that the Braves will offer some raises to some of their un-arb eligible players, but it won’t be all that much. They have NO obligation to do any such thing until they are arb eligible after they have played for three seasons. ”
Lew, I know they are “under no obligation to do so”, and it won’t be tons of money, but they will do some raises on these players. I’m sure not as much as they would like, but they won’t keep them at the same salary because when it IS time for arb, the player and/or their agent will remember this fact. Jurrjens and Escobar have been 2 of the top 5 or 6 players on this team; without either of them we are probably looking at a losing record. To a lesser extent, the same with Prado and Hanson. And if anything, it is a separator between them and the “minimum wage guys”. Yeah, they aren’t going to jump anybody a million, or probably even a half million, but they should/will get a bump-up, and the effect on team salary does have to be accounted for when computing next year’s payroll.
Another thing not many have mentioned in regards to this year is that we have been paying Hudson his salary, and you have to factor that into this year’s cost–even if insurance covers most of it, they most likely won’t see any of that until next year. However, if they do expect to get an insurance check next year, then maybe that gets counted as salary relief when planning next year’s payroll? Not sure about that one.
You all are Cox apologists
September 16th, 2009
11:26 am
WITH THAT PITCHING STAFF,
The Braves should be in a much better position than they are.
The INEPTNESS, lack of ENTHUSIASM, and bad managing from Bobby Cox has ONCE AGAIN, prevented the Braves from reaching their peak.
When will you COX apologists ever learn that the Braves run of 14 straight divisions happened IN SPITE of Cox, not because of him.
Lew
September 16th, 2009
11:28 am
Anders-They may have some serious cash coming off of the books with DelGado and Wagner, but do you seriously believe that their payroll (given the Wilpon financial crisis) will remain anywhere near the same levels? Good luck with that. I’m doubting it will happen as you envision it.
As for Lowe/Ollie Perez- Let’s see now. Lowe is 14-9 with 177 IP, an ERA of 4.47, a WHIP of 1.47 and an almost 2-1 K to BB ration for %15 mil. Ollie is 3-4 with 66IP, an ERA of 6.82, a WHIP f 1.92 and a 1-1 K to BB ratio for $12 mil.
Now tell me again who got the worst deal. I’ll still take Lowe at his cost before I’d even stop laughing at a potential acquisition of Ollie.
Nonetheless, yes, the Braves need some more offense and yes, likely we will need to part with pitching to acquire it. We have the wherewithal to do it-both by re-signing LaRoche and trading for more outfield power (not to mention we will bring Heyward up sooner or later and he won’t be anywhere near as low level as Shafer was).
The Mets, on the other hand, must get a new first baseman, at least two starting pitchers (Pelfrey is OK, but Maine? I’m doubting it), an outfielder and a bench. Good luck with that what with having broke ownership and a new stadium no one will buy the too expensive tickets for.
My name is jeffrey d.
September 16th, 2009
11:28 am
You all are Cox apologists dropped the dumb quotes from his name!! Now if we could just get him to not make his user name a sentence.
Man, first we get Herschel to stop using all caps and now YAACA (bless you!). We’re making the blog slightly….slightly less stupid a little at a time.
DAP
September 16th, 2009
11:31 am
wjonesWe won’t be able to trade Lowe without assuming some salary–maybe $3m per year, maybe as much as $5m per year, or a gradual decrease.
dude. not worth it. eating $15mil? c’mon man.
andersThe Braves have to get offense. Not sure how unless they unload some pitching.
how on earth are they going to do that!?!
and perez hasnt been nearly the pitcher lowe has this year. when were talking contracts, lowe still wins that battle.
My name is jeffrey d.
September 16th, 2009
11:32 am
oops, forgot my predicate – and now YAACA drops the quotes
ncscoots
September 16th, 2009
11:34 am
Another thing not many have mentioned in regards to this year is that we have been paying Hudson his salary, and you have to factor that into this year’s cost–even if insurance covers most of it, they most likely won’t see any of that until next year.
Kinda doubt that’s the way the accounting works. Whatever insurance money is coming for the Hudson absence (or whenever), I’d be shocked if that money isn’t already booked as a receivable and counted against this year’s liabilities. The actual arrival of the check is probably inconsequential, from the bean-counter’s perspective. I mean, Braves aren’t exactly living hand-to-mouth here.
CB
September 16th, 2009
11:35 am
DOB,your post about our “fans” who bailed on Braves is as accurate as you could write. We are not defining what a fan is,but a fan is there for the long run,good or bad. Who needs a fair weather fan? They can watch football and pretend to be a Braves fan next year.
monty
September 16th, 2009
11:37 am
Anyone referring to Adam LaRoche as a poor 1st half hitter needs to stop! If what you mean is he is only a “very good” hitter in the 2nd half then OK I buy that, but Adam is really only a “poor” April hitter compared to his career stats. In May he is just slightly under his career stats but in June he hits his career averages but becomes a beast in July-Oct. In April and MAy he averages 1HR/28 AB. in June he avg. 1HR/25AB and in July-Sept he avg. 1HR/17AB., his June avg. of 336.OBP, .462 slg., and .798 OPS are right in line with his career avg.He is what he is a decent 1st half guy and a very good 2nd half guy, but to say he doesn’t hit a lick in the 1st half isn’t true.Just in April!
Lew
September 16th, 2009
11:42 am
Tell It Like It Is-And your point is? Dude (or not), the Braves have not only four good starters for 2010, they have six. They have a lead off hitter with speed-McLouth. Yes, they will need to get another power hitter (in addition to LaRoche-and I believe they WILL re-sign him), but I hardly see this as an impossibility as we have pitching (the prime commodity) to use in trade and a well thought of minor league system for potential trade bait.
Yes, they will need a closer (but could sign one of the ones we already have), but are hardly bereft of a bullpen with Moylan, Medlen, O’Flaherty, Logan, Acosta and Nunez, not to mention Carlyle for long relief and a return of Jorge Campillo who can spot start or do long relief when needed. Also, keep in mind that Frank Wren has been known to pull blockbuster deals out of his hat that no one saw coming until he pulled the trigger. As for more relievers-do you remember a deal for Ohman and Infante that cost almost nothing, or pulling Eric O’Flaherty off of the scrap heap?
Sorry, but the Braves are still closer to the more spending inclined teams to the KC’s and Pittsburgh teams. Time and again, it has been proven that spending a billion dollars like the Yankees doesn’t assure success and conversely, that teams like the Marlins and Rays with much smaller payrolls are never out of it either.
Cheese
September 16th, 2009
11:43 am
A Braves Win, and SF win = braves only 3 back in loss column, and i still have a lot of faith that with out pitching staff…if and i mean if our bats give them some run support we could go on a major tear though it hasnt happened all season but…who knows?
I Believe!!!!!!!!!
Anders
September 16th, 2009
11:44 am
Hey DOB – Just read your 11:00 AM post. Be careful guy, wouldn’t want you to hurt your rotator cuff or anything. {:
Hugh Jazz
September 16th, 2009
11:45 am
The Braves are gonna free up a ton of salary by cutting ties with Anderson, Norton, KJ, Church, Soriano, and Gonzo. Resign LaRoche, Hudson, and one of Gonzo/Soriano and then try to deal KK or Lowe for a LF. Might have to settle for a Marlon Byrd type. I see no way possible to get a speed guy AND a power guy unless ownership raises the payroll which I doubt.
Lew
September 16th, 2009
11:45 am
How about no more YAACA right now in 2009? You do realize that you’re an insufferable douchebag, don’t you?
Anders
September 16th, 2009
11:46 am
Lew- Good to see this latest Braves run has put you back in form. All Mets issues are dark, serious and insurmountable. All Braves issues have a sunny upside.
Let’s see how it plays out.
jeffrey d
September 16th, 2009
11:47 am
Based on Turner Field attendance this year, I’d say we could use some of those fair weather fans.
Hugh Jazz
September 16th, 2009
11:47 am
The Braves are gonna free up a ton of salary by cutting ties with Anderson, Norton, KJ, Church, Soriano, and Gonzo. Resign LaRoche, Hudson, and one of Gonzo/Soriano and then try to deal KK or Lowe for a LF. Might have to settle for a Marlon Byrd type. I see no way possible to get a speed guy AND a power guy unless ownership raises the payroll which I doubt. They would rather spend billions on satellite radio.
jeffrey d
September 16th, 2009
11:49 am
I’m not sure YAACA (bless you!) ever reads the blog. It’s like making your name “You all are Lentz fans” because one person agreed with him once.
monty
September 16th, 2009
11:51 am
The league is pitching starved and I feel confident that somebody who plays in a small ballpark with deep pockets would love to have a veteran 15 game winner “sinkerballer” if all it would cost them is 15 mil. a year for the next 3 years. It’s alot for our payroll but not to some others.
Anders
September 16th, 2009
11:52 am
Hey, I usually don’t stray into the TV, Movie or music world on here but I’m wondering if there are any others out there that watch “Flight Of The Conchords” on HBO? I haven’t seen it mentioned on here. I tripped over that show a while back and can’t say I watch it regularly (assuming it’s even on regularly) but it’s really well done and clever imo. Those guys are pretty talented. Taken on face value it almost seems ridiculous but after watching a few shows you see their comedic talent.
Anyone?
dogsbrekky
September 16th, 2009
11:53 am
Dobi One Knobi – Sons of Anarchy is one of my favorite shows… love it..
We have been watching all of the season 2 and new season 3 shows of “Mad Men”. Some episodes are excellent but I have no connection with most of the characters. The sociopathic nature of several of the leads and the weasel like personalities of several of the other characters leaves one with little sympathy for any of the “team”…. having said that, the show captures the feel of NYC in the early 60s very well according to my NY mates
Jeff R
September 16th, 2009
11:54 am
Anders, I’ve floated back to the island…
Is Hanson another Bob Gibson? Can’t say at this point, and wouldn’t suggest it. But it is fair that the guy has achieved at every level of the professional game. His major league debut is superior. He does seem to show smarts and poise that a lot of pitchers his age don’t have.
The next test comes for Hanson at the start of the 2010 season. Teams will have a book on him; a good many hitters will have seen him at least once. We’ll see if hed can make the adjustments.
I’m betting he can. Gibson? Maybe not, but someday someone may say: “Your guy isn’t another Hanson yet.”
jeffrey d
September 16th, 2009
11:55 am
I mean, do you think all those people filling out the seats in Boston or Philly are 5th generation fans? They’re fair-weather fans, but their money is just as good as the die-hards’.
dogsbrekky
September 16th, 2009
11:55 am
We are still in it if we can crush those fillies and take the balance of the mutts series…. a run of another 5 wins here in a row would make for an exciting end
Lew
September 16th, 2009
11:57 am
Anders-You’re the only one we’ve heard commenting on the Mets that actually thinks the franchise has much of a chance of winning in the next few years. You’re the only one refusing to acknowledge their financial doldrums (hell-outright crisis). You’re the only one we’ve heard commenting on the situation that thinks they will keep their payroll at current levels, thinks they actually have a productive Farm System and thinks that the Ollie Perez deal may have an upside or that, at the very least, it wasn’t one of the worst deals (in a history of TERRIBLE deals throughout their franchise history) ever. Ollie will forever be mentioned in the same sentence with Mo Vaughan and Jeromy Burnitz (and other dud deals way too numerous to mention). What, in your experience, makes you so optimistic that the Mets will turn it all around? Their history of blockbuster deals and cost effective spending policies? The $20 mil you’re getting for naming rights of your mostly empty new stadium? Or maybe their wonderful track record of winning when they DID actually have quality players?
I’m just being realistic. The Braves have needs, but have improved this year by over 13 games at this point and have the necessary resources to add the needed upgrades. The Mets? Not so much. You claim we will need to trade pitching to fill needs. So what? That might matter if we didn’t HAVE the extra pitching, but we do have it.
Our problems are certainly surmountable. The Mets’ problems? Like I said before. Good Luck with that.
David O'Brien
September 16th, 2009
11:59 am
Lew, I know they are “under no obligation to do so”, and it won’t be tons of money, but they will do some raises on these players. I’m sure not as much as they would like, but they won’t keep them at the same salary because when it IS time for arb, the player and/or their agent will remember this fact. — wjones
Matters not one iota whether player and/or agent is peeved or upset about past salaries when it comes to arbitration. The arb panel couldn’t give a rat’s behind about their feelings or about past slights — perceived or actual — when it comes to salary.
The panel simply — and it couldn’t be simpler — looks at the two salary options, the one the team offered and the one the player requested, and it chooses the salary it deems most appropriate based on the player’s performance compared with others of the same service time. That’s it. That’s all. Not what this player should have gotten in a past season, blah blah blah.
jeffrey d
September 16th, 2009
12:01 pm
Who’s on the arbitration panel? Just some neutral baseball officials?
richbrave
September 16th, 2009
12:04 pm
ANDERS:
We must go 14-4 to hit 90 wins. How do you think it’s going to play out? Me either wise-azz, but a fan keeps the hope alive until there isn’t any. Possibilities until reality becomes the order of the day. We’ve got to go four out of five against your METS. Think it will happen? That includes at least one three game series sweep. Look dude, I don’t hate on you. In fact, I kinda’ like you. Don’t roll with that crap like your 11:46 a.m. It’s beneath you – maybe.
David O'Brien
September 16th, 2009
12:05 pm
Ben, did you realize that, on an AJC blog (this one), you just linked an ESPN.com story that is nothing more than a reference to, and rehash of, an AJC article, right? That ESPN.com story is about Jeff Schultz’s AJC column today about Cox being on fence with his decision. It says it near top of the ESPN.com story (the “he told the AJC,” etc).
Anyway, no big deal, not a problem at all. Just wondered if you’d read that ESPN story before you linked to it.
David O'Brien
September 16th, 2009
12:09 pm
jeffrey d: No. Not baseball officials. The three-person panel is made up of attorneys who are experienced arbitrators.
Jeff R
September 16th, 2009
12:09 pm
Unless the Mets make some significant improvements this winter, I don’t think they’re on par with the Braves.
Anders cites Santana and Wright vs. Hanson and Jones. You,ve got to compare teams, not just a couple of players. You’ve got to look at pitching staffs, bullpens, outfields and infields… oh, and benches.
The Braves pitching, as is, is superior to the Mets. Braves’ power definitely needs to be beefed up. Could stand to work some speed somehow into the lineup. But I think Wren stands a better chance of addressing those concerns than the Mets have bucking up their pitching to either Philly’s or Atlanta’s level.
Tell It Like It Is
September 16th, 2009
12:13 pm
Lew,
1. McLouth is not a speedy centerfileder or a speedy lead off hitter. He is a left fielder with some speed and pop in his bat.
2.They do have six starters. Two starters(Lowe and Hudson) are not worth what they pay them. Lowe will be back because no team will pick up his contract. Hudson is not worth $12 million with a surgically repaired arm. If they can rearrange his contract for $ 6 million, then good. If not, bye bye Hudson.
3. If the Braves do not sign Soriano or Gonzales, who(Moylan, Medlen, O’Flaherty, Logan, Acosta and Nunez and the others you mentioned) can perform better than these two did this year?
You are right that you do not have to spend excessive amounts of money to win games. That’s why I favor a salary cap. Too many guys are getting paid too much money for poor performance. That was my point dude.
David O'Brien
September 16th, 2009
12:15 pm
jeffrey d, I found this good summary of the arb-hearing process online. I added italics for the part that refers to what I was saying earlier, about how it doesn’t matter one bit whether a player feels slighted by a previous salary he was given or whatever:
The Arbitration Procedure and the Arbitration Hearing
Arbitration works as follows: In January, the player and the club each submit a salary figure to a three-person panel of professional arbitrators. hearings are conducted between the 1st and 20th day of February.
At the hearing, each party has one hour to present its case to the panel, and then has an additional 30 minutes for rebuttal. The player must attend the hearing, but is usually represented by his agent. A club executive or attorney usually represents the team.
The arbitration is a “high-low” proceeding, during which each side presents its case for why the player should be awarded the requested salary in the upcoming season. In deciding to award the higher or lower salary, the panel may consider the following criteria:
(1) the player’s contribution to the club in terms of performance and leadership;
(2) the club’s record and its attendance;
(3) any and all of the player’s “special accomplishments,” including All-Star game appearances, awards won, and postseason performance;
(4) the salaries of comparable players in the player’s service-time class and, for players with less than five years of service, the class one year ahead of him.
The parties may not refer to team finances, previous offers made during negotiations, comments from the press or salaries in other sports or occupations.
The panel, without opinion, awards the player a one-year, non-guaranteed contract at one salary or the other. If the player is cut within 16 days before the season begins, he is entitled only to 30 days’ termination pay. If the player is cut during spring training but after the 16th day before the season begins, he is entitled only to 45 days’ termination pay.
That’s it. That’s baseball arbitration. Not that hard, right?
Lew
September 16th, 2009
12:16 pm
Tell it Like It Is-Good luck with that salary cap idea. As for the rest. We’ll see.
Anders
September 16th, 2009
12:21 pm
richbrave – I was talking about how things will play out long term, not this year.
Jeff R – My comparison was based specifically on Lew’s question comparing Hanson to Santana.
You have to go back and read the string folks. If you want a full understanding anyway.
Lew
September 16th, 2009
12:21 pm
Denizens-I’ll psot this once more for those who may have missed it yesterday (and if someone with the requisite knowledge can put it on the next couple pages, I’d appreciate it).
Free Hank Aaron prints. Email me at LewHartman@comcast.net and leave your real name, blog name and snail mail address and I’ll send a copy. You can view it on my website-LewHartman.com
Response has been pretty good so far, but not quite like the response on the Skip print. If you don’t want Hank, choose another Braves’ print and I’ll send it. Later y’all. Time to enjoy this sunny, fall day with all the changing leaves.
Gov Clinton Tyree
September 16th, 2009
12:28 pm
I don’t think a Marlon Byrd type is the way to go and I think our creative GM will figure out a way to get a major RH 4-hitter in here this offseason.
If you non-tender Church and KJ (why do people keep talking about dealing him? Nobody’s going to take him arbitration eligible), don’t resign one of the closers – and you’ve got suitable replacements for those roles on the 40-man right now – that frees up $12-15m. Dealing Vazquez or Lowe, while eating a piece of Lowe’s salary, frees up $12m.
Now you’ve got room to give your “thank-you” bumps to the young guys and SIGN MATTHOLLIDAY while staying at $100m!
And yes, I am an armchair GM. I know the game and I’m entitled; that’s what this blog is for.
Tell It Like It Is
September 16th, 2009
12:29 pm
DOB,
Based on your discription of the arbitration rules, which of the minimum salary players do you believe will be up for arbitration or a contract offer as was presented to McCann and Frenchy? This is a dirty business when arbitration is involved. No wonder players have no loyalty and go for all the bucks and perks that they can get.
Tell It Like It Is
September 16th, 2009
12:35 pm
Lew,
It IS What It IS.
Indianabravesfan
September 16th, 2009
12:36 pm
I have an idea lets wait until this season is over with before we start talking about next season.
Ok, I can’t wait. I say we sign Chone Figgins who can play almost anywhere with his .300 batting average and .400 OBP and play him at 2nd. That would leave Prado and Infante as the utility guys which is what they should be doing. Then we have Diaz, McLouth and Heyward (in June) for the OF.
I know this does not address the SP and BP but that is another day!!!
Carroll Rogers
September 16th, 2009
12:38 pm
new blog is up
wjones
September 16th, 2009
12:44 pm
“Matters not one iota whether player and/or agent is peeved or upset about past salaries when it comes to arbitration. The arb panel couldn’t give a rat’s behind about their feelings or about past slights — perceived or actual — when it comes to salary.”
Maybe I was unclear, DOB, but you totally missed the point I was trying to make. Of course a player-team relationship has no bearing in an arbitration hearing. That is, as you say, “not that hard”. What that does have a bearing on is whether a player/agent wants to deal with a team in the future, i.e., do they want to come to the table and try to work out a deal that bypasses the arb process, give up future arb/free agency years, work together for a mutually satisfying deal, or has the relationship gotten to the point where the player and/or agent just wants to fleece the team and go see if the grass is greener. In other words, one could see how a team “nickel-and-diming” a player when the team has complete control could sour a player’s feelings toward the team.
Just to be theoretical for a moment, suppose the Braves go to JJ or Escobar after the season and offer them a miminum contract, with no raise. Completely within their rights to do so. The player and agent can scream until blue in the face, demanding a trade, etc. But the Braves don’t have to even respond, just mail the contract to them. But you can’t tell me that this won’t come back to haunt them in future negotiations. The Braves have not historically, if memory serves me correctly, been a team that enjoyed going through the arb process, prefering to settle “out of court”, so to speak. And that scenario would be more likely if the team and the player/agent had a decent history coming into the negotiations.
That was my original point. Sorry if I took everyone on a wrong turn.
Tell It Like It Is
September 16th, 2009
12:48 pm
Indianabravesfan,
What is it with all the love for Diaz? Prado and Infante have more upside. They can play several positions(better than Diaz can play right field)and they can hit just as good over the long haul(not streak hitters). It IS What It IS.
Pete
September 16th, 2009
12:50 pm
Luman: “Destiny. Winning the East would require the Phillies to go no better than 7 – 12 down the stretch and I just do not buy that. Not after playing .580 ball thus far.”
I agree, so how can you buy the Braves going 14-4 (.778) after playing .528 so far? My point is the chances of either scenario happening is pretty close to 0.
McFann :Ô:
September 16th, 2009
1:03 pm
Daslied Can you imagine Chipper hitting cleanup with the year he’s having, considering he’s always been statistically better as the #3?
Haha! So it’s either that or BMac hitting cleanup with the year he’s having, considering he’s always been statistically better as the #5?
Taking one for the team for sure…
Pete
September 16th, 2009
1:07 pm
BravesfaninWis: “To bad we weren’t a little closer to the Phillies with having all these divisional games to end the season..”
Go back to game #3, Braves winning 10-3 over Phills in the 7th, and end up losing as Cox watches the meltdown while leaving Soriano and Gonzo sitting in the pen. If Braves won that game, we would be 5.5 back now instead of 7.5 back, and thats a huge difference (especially with 3 games coming up vs. Phills).
Pete
September 16th, 2009
1:11 pm
KC: “The Giants are sending Cain to the mound today against the Rockies. IF San Fran wins tonight, and the Braves do to… Atlanta is suddenly 3 games out.
Still a big gap this late? Yes. But at 3 games out with 17 game left to play, would the Braves be firmly in the race? Absolutely.
KC if your scenario holds true the Braves would be 4 games out, and not 3. Yes 3 in the loss column, but 2 behind in wins which makes it 4 games. You cant just ignore the wins; they represent a certain value when measuring the standings.
Pete
September 16th, 2009
1:14 pm
KC: “But there is EVERY reason for Braves fans to look forward to next season.”
Could not agree with you more. In fact, Id say Braves would have a very good chance for the Division in 2010, and not just the WC.
Jeff R
September 16th, 2009
1:17 pm
Anders, I stand corrected…
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