Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
2,078 comments Add your comment
Random
June 15th, 2009
2:50 pm
Klaus (June 15th, 2009 1:12 pm): “Do you actually believe anyone who claims to be speaking to Braves employees over drinks?”
Believe you me, Capt Caveman is not just “anyone”. I for one believe me him.
Baseball Prospectus’ Christina Kahrl on the McLouth trade and more:
The Braves are usually in a position to deal from depth, and they certainly did so with this exchange, adding an outfielder they desperately needed for a collection of talent they could readily swap out. While Hernandez and Locke rated among the organization’s top 10 prospects on Baseball America’s top prospects list, and Locke just missed on Kevin Goldstein’s here at BP, that’s more impressive-sounding than it really is. The Braves threw stuff at the Pirates, and it turned out to be the right combination to feed the Bucs’ omnivorousness for prospects of any and every stripe. There isn’t one player given up that the Braves will really miss all that much, though I’m sure they’ll be happy to see all three succeed in the Steel City, since it might encourage other dumping teams to deal for depth. It isn’t like they’re going to give up the real crown jewels of the system, Jordan Schafer or Tommy Hanson or Jason Heyward.
So, throwing together a package to get an at-peak outfielder like McLouth, one who can at least play some in center, works for me and then some. I know, he leaves most of us statheads unimpressed, and Clay’s fielding numbers put him down for a below-average 94 in center this season, an improvement on his Gold Glove-winning ‘08—but the man does boast a tasty .947 Revised Zone Rating. That said, I think it’s safe to concede the point that he’s not a great center fielder; he wasn’t seen as one coming up, various defensive metrics generally aren’t charitable to him, and he was sort of sucked into the vacuum there in Pittsburgh because top prospect Andrew McCutchen wasn’t ready yet. I think it’s also safe to say he won’t have to be a center fielder for the Braves for very long, not when Schafer’s blue-chip status hasn’t started fading from navy to azure, just because of one rough introduction to the majors.
McLouth’s right-now offensive value also shouldn’t be understated. True, he won’t repeat what he did last season. But take his PECOTA projection for 2009 and change it from the Pirates to the Braves, and you still get triple-crown rate stats of .283/.365/.489 calling Atlanta home, and a .295 EqA instead of his .297 with the Pirates. Add in that he’s currently delivering an EqA in the .290s, and there’s a certain predictability to the value the Braves can anticipate from their new outfielder. That’s obviously somebody you want and can win with right not, and to get it for a center-field prospect you can’t use if you understandably prefer Schafer plus two arms you can’t contend with, and I think it’s clearly a very good trade for the Braves when it came to applying assets to resolve big problems on the major league team. Pulling this deal off now, when you’ve got four more months of regular season yet to go, simply makes it an inspired action from the front office, as a pro-active outfield fix for a team that can’t afford to let their opportunities slip by while the Phillies begin to get vincible in their rotation and the Mets watch their lineup fall apart.
For the Braves, this deal comes with the additional benefit of cost certainty. McLouth is locked in for 2010 and 2011 for $11 million, with a 2012 club option that would cost a steep $10.65 million to pick up for his age-30 season, or a comparatively modest $1.25 million to buy out. Whichever choice you make in terms of the average annual value of the deal—$12.25 million for two seasons, or $21.65 million for three, that’s the balance of his peak seasons bought at a price you may not be able to equal on the free-agency market for an older hitter.
That’s not the only long-term planning benefit that adding McLouth brings the Braves. They get the immediate benefit of the initial positional value of employing him in center (setting aside the debate about his defense for the moment), and that buys time for Schafer so that the prospect can reacquire his bearings and be ready to take over in 2010 or 2011—or after Garret Anderson is gone, a point at which McLouth might move to either corner. (This also puts Brandon Jones and Jeff Francoeur in the unenviable position of trying to prove they have a place in the Braves’ future at something like 14 months at the outside, what with Jason Heyward raking in the Carolina League.)
Which will bring me to a point of disagreement with Joe’s bit from earlier today, which is that nothing the Braves do with their other outfielders makes this deal worse—this deal’s the deal the Braves made, and still quite sweet. Whether they swung it or not, they still also have the same decision tree to go through that they already had to deal with, in terms of what to do about Anderson and Francoeur after already sending down Schafer. Adding McLouth is a first step in fixing the outfield; the deal itself is a win. Whether the Braves use McLouth in center (now) and/or left (later) is a separate issue, one that can only be resolved by the team’s following up on the same sort of coldly rational decision-making when it came to cutting Glavine to give Tommy Hanson his major league debut this weekend, and applying that to what to do about Frenchy in right and Slapless Slappy in left.
Now, returning to my thought that Heyward’s eventual arrival will force people’s hands by some point either late in 2010 or in time for 2011, I’d argue that fixing the outfield is a conundrum the solutions to which ought to involve expansion to include Brandon Jones and Matt Diaz beyond getting worked up over Blanco. While I could comfortably assert that Blanco in center, McLouth in right, and a Bratt Joniaz platoon in left represents a best-case set-up with a set of Strat cards, I can understand the Braves preferring Anderson and Diaz in left. That was the plan from the start, Anderson’s recently hitting for power after missing most of April, and he might enjoy some additional benefit of the doubt on the basis of his latest slow start just being an echo of his doing likewise in 2007 (.285/.286/.424) and 2008 (.263/.302/.388) before having big second halves in both campaigns (.305/.361/.530 in ‘07, then .335/.360/.496 in ‘08). It’s easy to shout for change here, but I’d leave that for sports radio-inflicted rabies. I can also understand letting Francoeur’s flailing run on a bit longer, but I doubt they’ll indulge him into July if there’s no improvement. The question really is whether they see nailing down one outfield spot with the McLouth deal after shipping out Schafer as a nice first step, or the only fix they need to make at the moment. Letting it ride in left would be understandable; if there’s an issue, it’s standing by Francoeur for too much longer, but if they wound up with Schafer back and in center, with McLouth moving over to right, while they stick with the old men in left, I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised, nor would I blame them for going that route.
With Blanco, Anderson, and Jones (and Schafer) all batting lefty, and Francoeur and Diaz from the right, they have options aplenty, but in saying this, I guess it’s important to not get too worked up over Blanco. He’s a decent OBP source and someone who can run, yes, but not some overlooked everyday center fielder, yearning to be free, not when a quick check of assorted defensive metrics—Clay’s, John Dewan’s Plus/Minus, UZR, and RZR—reveals that only one of them (RZR) suggests that he’s a defensive asset up the middle, and when his arm is probably really only suitable for left. Adequacy afield matched with tepid hitting skills for someone in his age-25 season? Well, OK, that’s an upgrade on Francoeur in Frenchy’s present predicament, sure, but now we’re well into tallest midget competitions; for the reasons discussed, I wouldn’t race to bench the Anderson/Diaz platoon for him. To turn to the other option, while I’ve been willing to give Jones a lot of benefit of the doubt for a while now, he hasn’t hit for power this year or last. That just brings us back to the more basic problem, which is that, absent Schafer’s being ready, none of the alternatives are that worthwhile, not as options to get McLouth into a corner on an everyday basis. Platooning Francoeur with Jones or Blanco might be a temporary solution.
Anders
June 15th, 2009
2:50 pm
Craig1739 – See Steve’s 2:45? That’s why I come here. Stick around, you might learn something. Not necessarily from me, but trust me from someone.
Carroll Rogers
June 15th, 2009
2:52 pm
as for frenchy/hawpe talk….did you realize Hawpe is leading the Rockies in batting average (.337), RBIs (47) and on-base percentage (.410) and the Rockies have won 11 in a row?…..need I say more?
Efrim
June 15th, 2009
2:55 pm
Carroll Rogers, while I agree that it probably doesn’t bode well for him, I’d hope that the Braves would not sell short on a player like Escobar. I mean, he is 26 going on 27 years old, .369 career OBP, plus defender, controlled through 2013, and looks like he is becoming more and more of a power threat. If you trade him(and I do agree that Boston makes the most sense) you’d had better get back a ton in return. Because it’s a hard position to fill.
Anders
June 15th, 2009
2:56 pm
Carroll – Is your 2:52 suggesting the Rockies would have to pay half of Hawpe’s salary as well? I mean – they’d be getting Frenchy after all.
N8
June 15th, 2009
2:57 pm
Carroll, good point on Escobar needing to be the leader of the infield. As far as that goes, SOMEBODY needs to step up and show they can lead this team when Chipper steps away. McCann is capable of it. But like I said yesterday, kind of hard to have your “leader” be on the bench every 5th day.
As far as trading Escobar? Who cares? If Wren can get “value” for him, make the move. He was a punk last year, and has shown to NOT have his head in the game.
One’s true character comes out when things aren’t going well. Which is when Yunel is usually at his worst. Good thing we drafted some SS this year. Too bad we gave up Elvis for Tex, huh?
This season can still be salvaged, it’s just a matter of if Wren/Bobby have the balls to make the moves to make it happen.
But as long as this team is relying on the trio of Francoeur, KJ and Escobar to lead them anywhere other than to a .500 record, I suspect we’ll see a whole bunch of the same.
Steve from OH, earlier said that this is a “team on the upswing”.
Based on WHAT? Because we traded a prospect for Vazquez to eat innings, and spent a TON of money on D-Lowe to be our “ace”?
Other than that, NOTHING has changed since last year, including the results.
After this year, we will be without one (if not BOTH) of our backend bullpen guys. Chipper will be one year older. Heyward will not be here yet, and KJ, Escobar and Francoeur will either be traded or STILL under-achieving.
The ONLY things “swinging in the direction of up” will be Schafer gaining experience at AAA and with Atlanta (the end result of said experience is still open for debate), and Hanson’s arrival.
Lowe, Vazquez and KK will ALL be another year older just like Chipper, and JJJ was already the best pitcher in the rotation.
So, no sarcasm intended Steve, but what part of this team compared to last year is looking up to you?
You say that this team is a couple of outfielders away from being “top tier”. A month ago, I would have agreed with you. But KJ is actually worse than Francoeur (not sure that was possible for a team to have two everyday players that are so bad), and Escobar apparently doesn’t want to play baseball that badly.
Now. With the addition of a couple of outfielders, we might be in better position to make a playoff run. But “top tier”? Come on dude. Pass me some of the funny stuff, because I’m not buyin’ it.
This team is flawed. Perhaps cursed. But to say we’re a couple of outfielders away from being top tier is funny.
Anders
June 15th, 2009
2:58 pm
Efrim- I would consider Escobar to be on his last warning from Mr. Cox. The fact that Cox said anything publicly says volumes. To add that he’s spoken to him before about this puts a warning that he’s reached the end of his rope with Escobar. Escobar better be as sharp as an Army Ranger from this point out or Cox will have him moved. That’s how I read it.
Carroll Rogers
June 15th, 2009
3:00 pm
Random….links are good too, eh?
Joe Fan
June 15th, 2009
3:01 pm
Many managers stay way past their prime including Earl Weaver, Tommy Lasorda, Sparky Anderson, and you can probably add Jum Leyland and Bobby Cox to that list. Their managerial skills declined right in sink with their teams abilities. Each of these managers were initially blessed with outstanding players but these guys eventually had to retire and weren’t replaced with players of similar abilities. These managers like so many other coaches were only as good as their players and unable to coach this group up due to a decline in their skill set or the realization they were never that good at managing to start. It may take a firm push but Boboby needs to move on to greener pastures.
flange1
June 15th, 2009
3:01 pm
Anders,
Well put at 2:58. I agree with you..
Daniel
June 15th, 2009
3:02 pm
hmmmm… that makes absolutely no sense.
Frank from KS
June 15th, 2009
3:03 pm
Anders
Oh the days of Blauser and Belliard.
“Where have you gone Jeff Blauser?”
LOL
Carroll Rogers
June 15th, 2009
3:04 pm
http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2009/06/15/the-cubs-fire-their-hitting-coach-should-the-braves/
have you guys seen bradley’s latest blog? since i’m not writing a new one today – sorry, following the off day strategy – maybe this can help keep you guys fed….
Robert
June 15th, 2009
3:05 pm
” I was very happy when Bobby benches Yunel. He should bench people that don’t try either mentally or physically more frequently”
If Cox did his job, he’d
a – never put people who arent mentally or physically prepared out there to begin with, and
b – make sure his players are properly trained in the fundamentals during times like spring training and practices, instead of fussing over whether anyone is wearing shades ovcer their ballcap or where his bag if sugar cubes might be
Shamus Thacker
June 15th, 2009
3:05 pm
Gotta be a team with a sacka termite-infested bats they need to unload…
We need to unload Jeffthro Francoeur.
Sounds like a plan to me.
Anders
June 15th, 2009
3:06 pm
It appears Ms Rogers is using the “dump him with your desperate fat friend” strategy in her 3:04 post. Not that that’s ever happened to me {:
McFann :Ô:
June 15th, 2009
3:06 pm
Ms. Rogers since i’m not writing a new one today – sorry, following the off day strategy – maybe this can help keep you guys fed….
You trying to get rid of us?
Robert
June 15th, 2009
3:06 pm
“what a dumb thing to say. like anyone could even know that.” (on whether Cox is the owrst-evcer manager\
Watch any Braves game and it should become, as they say, intuitively obvious. Bobby Cox is quite possibly the stupidest human being ever associated with the game of baseball – PERIOD.
Frank from KS
June 15th, 2009
3:07 pm
Joe Fan
While I’m not defending Bobby…and his declining managerial skils, but if that’s the case…then shouldn’t you say the same thing about Lou?
Seems to me that the Cubs have been pretty good with Sweet Lou and (aside from the fact they made the playoffs and got pounded by the Dodgers) had the best record in the NL last year and Lou’s probably the same age as Bobby.
Robert
June 15th, 2009
3:08 pm
” know BC didn’t have much of a choice yesterday ”
when Cox doewsnt have much of a choice, it’s usually because mistakes he has made have him painted into a corner
Steve from OH
June 15th, 2009
3:08 pm
N8, I say “on the upswing” because we have a very good rotation RIGHT NOW, with a potentially dominant one next year by adding Huddy and removing KK (not saying it will happen or is feasible, but a though). That right there is a huge part of what we can be next year.
We also have the best catcher in the NL, a top-5 third baseman (according to EqA) in the majors in Chipper, the #6 shortstop in the game (not factoring the excellent defense), #7 centerfielder (McLouth), and an average 1B in Kotchman. What is killing this club is the fact that Kelly is slumping horribly, that McCann missed significant time, and most importantly, that we got zero production from ALL of our outfield spots until only very recently, and the addition of McLouth (like Random pointed out) is a great addition for next year. Wren should have the resources to add at least one good outfielder this offseason, and we can fill the other slot from within with Schafer/Jones/Diaz and reasonably expect to get league average production from him. So, all in all, that would be a top-notch rotation, and top-tier players at their positions in Chipper, Mac, Escobar and McLouth (half of our lineup), an average 1B that plays great D (and certainly isn’t a liability with the bat), and hopefully a good OF addition. That leaves 2B and one more OF spot. Kelly has been a plus bat from that spot in the last two years and I think can be at least league average.
Honestly, we’re short two OF bats and that’s what is killing us right now, and Wren can fix that in the offseason. That’s what I mean by “on the upswing” because we’re oh-so-close to being a legit contender, and those pieces can be had IMO. Plus, we’d be adding Huddy back to the rotation, so we’re adding a lot more value than you think in run prevention. Remeber the JoJo and Medlen starts?
Daniel
June 15th, 2009
3:09 pm
Robert- I guess it is thankful then that you are not associated with the game of baseball, because clearly you are the stupidest!
Daniel
June 15th, 2009
3:09 pm
oh, I forgot PERIOD
Daniel
June 15th, 2009
3:11 pm
Steve- I want to believe you. I am having a hard time though with the way this team has played recently. It does seem like they are right there, but we just can’t get out of our own way.
Anders
June 15th, 2009
3:11 pm
While MLB has claimed they’ve outlawed “greenies” and are testing to insure it, Steve’s 3:08 says otherwise. Good lord, that reads like the plans to the atom bomb.
Efrim
June 15th, 2009
3:11 pm
“After this year, we will be without one (if not BOTH) of our backend bullpen guys. Chipper will be one year older. Heyward will not be here yet, and KJ, Escobar and Francoeur will either be traded or STILL under-achieving.”
N8, I know you posted this to Steve and I can’t argue against you thinking that this team won’t be ready to get moving by 2010. Personally, I’m not sure I ever bought into that. What I did buy into was that the Braves were trying to compete for 2009 and 2010, and that the Vazquez trade, Lowe and Kawakami signings were a sign of that. Though, all they really gave up for Lowe and Kawakami was a chance at free agency the next few years. Because they signed them, I really don’t have a problem with it. Ya had to spend the money. Is it THAT big of a deal that they dealt Tyler Flowers for Vazquez? Really? I don’t think it is. I actually have more of a problem dealing away Jeff Locke, because he was a personal favorite and you can never have enough pitching prospects with upside(but since they got a player at a position that was desperately needed, I understand why they made the move. Plus McLouth is controllable). Flowers had no place in the Braves system, either. Anyway, I’m kinda rambling here. But I guess my point is that the Braves have their shot in 2011 more than in 2010. The tough thing there is that Lowe and Chipper will be two years older than they are now, but if Heyward and Hanson are as good as most think, that won’t matter as much, so long as Lowe and Chipper don’t completely fall off.
Carroll Rogers
June 15th, 2009
3:13 pm
Sounds like it, doesn’t it, McFann! Ha!….but no!
Steve from OH
June 15th, 2009
3:13 pm
Anders–it was kind of a rambling post, wasn’t it? Apologies. I hope I made my point though, because reading through it again I don’t know if it was clear…
DAP
June 15th, 2009
3:15 pm
steve from OH
im with you, man. the rotation looks to be solid for several more years at least. even modest upgrades in the outfield would drastically change the way this team looks, but when thinking about the window of time we have with the current pitching staff, and the needs of the offense, im almost starting to think that signing one of the big LF free agents next year should be pursued. adding either bay or holliday would go along way, and the braves have the money to do it, if they are willing to spend that much on one player….
Hillbilly
June 15th, 2009
3:15 pm
Carroll,
‘Round here is the quantity of players that matters, not quality. The Braves could simply just add 4 or 5 really crappy players and that would make the deal even…At least in the minds of many of these Cyber-GMs. I’ve seen more fair trade proposals at the elementary school lunch table from the class bully that’s been in 4th grade for three years as he tries to convince the exchange student who doesn’t speak English, that this peanut butter sandwich is awesome and worth every penny of the poor kid’s lunch money for a week.
Daniel
June 15th, 2009
3:16 pm
Ultimatel, it is June 15th and we are one good win streak away from being right in it, and we are one good losing streak of being out of it. I have NO idea which is more likely to happen. Either way a streak plays out will determine if we can trade or not. Like Carroll said, look at the Rockies they have an 11 game streak going, so why would they want to deal. Just two weeks ago they fire their manager and are looking like they are about to clean house. No Robert- that doesn’t mean we should fire Bobby.
6-4-3
June 15th, 2009
3:16 pm
I just realized I read this blog way too much. I have no life at all.
Efrim
June 15th, 2009
3:16 pm
And let me add that trading Escobar would be a bad idea unless they got a huge haul. That decreases the chances of this team winning in 2010 and 2011. But again, all depends on the haul. It upsets me because I really consider Escobar to be apart of the organizational “core”. “Core” being Chipper, McCann, Escobar, McLouth, Hanson, Jurrjens, Lowe, Heyward, and Freeman.
Daniel
June 15th, 2009
3:17 pm
I meant ultimately. sorry
Daniel
June 15th, 2009
3:18 pm
I do not feel the same way you do about Escobar, Efrim.
Steve from OH
June 15th, 2009
3:20 pm
Daniel, I’m with Efrim. Escobar is an extremely valuable player. Don’t just give those guys away for the 1st Jacoby Ellsbury-type player that comes your way. I’d want a piece that helps the club right now, and two top-10 prospects that look to improve the club in the future.
STRETCH
June 15th, 2009
3:20 pm
Frank from KS and bravos2249
It would have been the no-brainer thing to do, but these guys never looked in the direction of Orlando Hudson or Ibanez. But, they were too busy trying to build another pitching dynasty.
This would have been a pretty good lineup:
CF McClouth
1B Kotchman
3B Chipper
C MCCann
LF Ibanez/Diaz
SS Escobar
RF Frenchy
2B Hudson
Think about this; if they would have had atleast had one or two more legit big bats in the lineup, maybe they would have won more than one World Series.
N8
June 15th, 2009
3:24 pm
Steve, that’s cool. I mistook what you were implying.
In theory, you are correct. Not sure what’s going to happen with the whole “Hudson, Vazquez and KK” logjam in the rotation.
Not sure what to think of Escobar. It’s hard for me to rip on him, because I like what skills he brings to the table. But I’d rather watch a guy that plays hard, plays smart and possibly has less talent, than a guy with ALL the ability to be a star, and attitude holds him back from doing so.
I like the McLouth addition, especially if Schafer is back on track after this year, and Nate moves to one of the corners (not sure about his arm – is it good enough to be in RF, until Heyward arrives?).
I’ve ALWAYS stuck up for KJ. Because he’s been a a good enough hitter for them to “find” a position for him. But with his bat sucking it up, to go along with his below average defense, it might be time (unless it’s too late) to move on.
We should have moved on from Jeff after last year, so I’ll leave that alone.
I’ve contended that Kotchman’s offense is enough for me at 1B, just so long as we have “above league average” power from McCann at the catcher position. With Kotch’s glove-work, it’s a wash.
THAT being said, I don’t think that McCann’s glove is good enough to hold his bat back, by keeping him at the catcher position. Not sure how good he’d be at 1B, but we NEED his bat in the lineup EVERY DAY imo.
I watch a lot of the Twins, Mauer is a GREAT hitter. But McCann is right there and has more power. Wanna know the difference? Mauer can DH on the days he doesn’t catch. Keeping him fresh and what not.
But the other difference, is that Mauer is a FANTASTIC catcher.
I guess, you can take it as sarcasm from me, but I can agree that we’re on the “upswing” as well. But only because we’re so damn mediocre that there isn’t much more “down” we could get. LOL!
Travis
June 15th, 2009
3:25 pm
Being part of a team and working as a unit means meshing well with the rest of the players. Take Tampa as an example. They pulled for one another and took responsibility for their success or failure. It seems every time the camera pans to Yunel he has this “Look at me and what I just did” expression on his face. To be accepted and be part of the team is really important to team chemistry and how everyone. Yunel can never be a team leader or someone that the younger players look up to. He hasn’t even taken the time to join this team by learning how to communicate by learning and speaking english as his first language. His obvious seperation from the team was voiced by Chipper when he said “he is loud” and doesn’t talk to anyone but the latin players. Might be a good time to put him out there and trade for someone like Jack Wilson that plays hard all the time. He is a great shortstop but bad team player. Maybe his everyone for themselves attitude stems form his time in Cuba when it probably was everyone for themselves.
PWHjort
June 15th, 2009
3:27 pm
Yes Steve. Everything you said is true. Matter of fact, we probably have all the pieces to make a playoff push right now. Yes, I said it, we could win the division with the group we’ve god.
The problem is for a few years now our offensive components have out-done our actual run production. And our run differential has out-done our winning percentage. Basically, in every statistical sense of the word, we’ve been huge under-achievers for a few years. We’ve been a lot better on paper than we have in the field.
In 2006 you can blame it on the bullpen. It is well known that a good bullpen leads to over-achieving and a bad bullpen leads to under-achieving.
After that, I guess you can sort-of blame 2007 on the bullpen, but it wasn’t just that. And it wasn’t just Bobby’s botched 1-run strategies and questionable on-field decisions. It’s more than that. These factors contributed to some of our underachieving, but not even a good chunk of it. Some things you just can’t boil down to numbers. And this is coming from one of the bigger stat nerds on the blog.
It’s this team’s mentality. Their lack of heart, passion, guts, and ability to preform when it matters is the difference in preforming on par with their ability and underachieving. We never win the close games because we take plays off. We play lackadaisical baseball. Give up on plate appearances. It’s disgusting.
We’re completely dysfunctional because we have a loser mentality. We never give 100% effort. We’re never mentally prepared, we’re never concentrating on the task at hand, we’re just sort of… there. This level of baseball not only requires talent, athletic ability, skill, practice, and polish; it also requires grit, determination, and the will to win. We’ve got all the talent, skill, athletic ability, etc… But our attitude flat out sucks. And if we’re not going to give 100% mental and physical effort day in and day out, we might as well not pretend we’re trying to win. Because we aren’t.
Steve from OH
June 15th, 2009
3:29 pm
PWH–I kind of agree with that. We need another piece or two, but I just feel like as a team, we haven’t fully clicked yet this season. There’s always been a problem with something, be it the bullpen early in the season or the offensive injuries that have had Mac, Kotch and Yunel miss some time. We have good offensive pieces IMO at every slot except the corner OF slots, we just need everything to start clicking.
Efrim
June 15th, 2009
3:31 pm
Daniel, is it his attitude or overall ability? Maybe Escobar really does bother more people in the organization than I even realize, but again, trading him because of his attitude seems like the wrong move. And if teams know that, would that hurt the value you get in return? Because the last thing they should do is sell low on the guy.
blueridge
June 15th, 2009
3:37 pm
I can’t wait for the day when JF is playing for another club. Even the line-up produced by Stretch looks sad with his name in it. I am truly looking forward to the Braves turning the page.
Efrim
June 15th, 2009
3:38 pm
It’ll be interesting to see what the Braves do this offseason to add an outfielder for 2010. If Schafer is still in the teams plans, than him in center, McLouth in a corner and a stop gap guy in the other corner until Heyward is ready. Just going to have to pinpoint when you are ready to give Heyward the everyday job. Could be September of 2010, or earlier(although I’d advise them not to rush him, except that Heyward’s approach might lead you to think he could be ready by June of next year, similar to Hanson).
AGTFan
June 15th, 2009
3:40 pm
DAP and Steve,
I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. I think basically you guys were saying the same thing for the last two years. I think this is a club on the decline. We keep trading prospects for older players to keep us treading water and being almost competitive. I’ve lost most of my faith in the organization. I think they’re now in the mode of making short term fixes for long term problems. I think this team finishes around .500 and next years team finishes around .500 with even more of the farm gone.
Reality Check
June 15th, 2009
3:40 pm
If we trade Frenchy within the division it will come back to haunt us. He just needs to go back to the early days before all the pressure has gotten to him. Frechy has gotten mad skills that many major leaguers will never have. Trading him will curse the Braves like the Hawks trading Dominique to Clippers in the 90’s.
I couldn’t agree more. The Braves don’t need to trade Frenchy. He has the most potenital in Right field since David Justice! He just needs more time to find it. I love watching Frenchy, KJ, and GA just tearing it up out there on the field. I’ll bet a dollar that we’re going to win the division this year!
Steve from OH
June 15th, 2009
3:43 pm
ATGFan, I just see this club as deficient in one good corner OF, and I think Wren can remedy that in the offseason. Based on how well we’ve pitched, I think we have the pieces right now to score enough runs if Kelly would simply start hitting like he has been and Kotchman/Chipper/Yunel/Mac are all on the field (healthy) at the same time.
sportsmandh
June 15th, 2009
3:43 pm
AGTFan, Re: 2:12 post
I agree with your thoughts. I’m starting to believe it would be a mistake for the Braves to make a big trade with this season in mind. I think they should roll with what they have. I hope they don’t make a dumb move, b/c it is looking to me like there would have to be at least 2 or 3 moves made to really ‘fix’ the team.
After seeing the last couple of weeks, I’m not in favor of losing good prospects right now, especially if it is a desperation type trade. I think it would be smarter to stand pat and be sellers at the trade deadline looking for more prospects or young starters than trying to fix this season. In previous posts I have been a supporter of going after Dye. If they had to give up much at all then I’m no longer in favor of that.
I’m not sure if you think like this it makes you all pessimistic. The team still has enough starting pitching to keep from completely falling apart this year. If everyone stays healthy, the offense can only get better, it can’t get much worse. So the team still has a shot at staying in the race even with no trades.
Also think of it this way, even if we did get a trade for one more really good bat, how far could they really go in the playoffs if the theory is right that the team really has 3 or 4 holes? The answer is probably not far, so don’t make any stupid trades.
DAP
June 15th, 2009
3:46 pm
efrimIt’ll be interesting to see what the Braves do this offseason to add an outfielder for 2010.
just my opinion, but i think youve got to plan the outfield in 2010 as if heyward doesnt even exist. he isnt going to make a huge impact in 2010 if he even makes an appearance. thats why i think you sign a couple of outfielders, maybe just one of the big ones to along term deal, and dont deal with heyward until he forces you to.
if the braves can get bay in a 3 year deal, i think its important they do it. i also like mike cameron for a short term.
i dont think wren needs to act like schafer will be ready in 2010 or like heyward will be here in 2011.
Rock On....(the denizen formerly known as Dadgum)
June 15th, 2009
3:46 pm
Not really worried about Cox moving Escobar. I’m betting American money that Escobar will outlast Cox. Benching players is good but getting rid of one of the best SS’s over a few mental lapses is well just flat out damn stupid. Wren doesn’t look stupid (most of teh time) but not sure about Cox. I mean if we can continue to run Francouer and KJ out there without blinking an eye then I sure as hell ain’t worried about Escobar.
Anyone notice the coaches getting canned lately. If I were Pendleton I wouldn’t buy another home just yet.
richbrave
June 15th, 2009
3:47 pm
Guess that bustin’ business will take place in CINCINATTI. What an embarressment of a game. And yes, YUNEL was a contributor, but lowe HAD HIS WORST GAME AS A brave, NO QUESTION. So there’s plenty of finger-pointing to go around.
McFann :Ô:
June 15th, 2009
3:48 pm
Ms. Rogers–
Oh I know…We could never dump you for Bradley, anyway.
Neight–
BMac’s glove behind the plate isn’t as horrid as all that. Not horrid enough so hat his bat doesn’t cover it up, anyway. He’s been so much better at his throwing and blocking pitches this year (especially lately…he had some big trouble blocking pitches earlier in the season…when he couldn’t see). Tagging runners coming home? Eh, needs a little work. But his game calling skills are phenomenal, we all know that (I think). Ya lose that is you move him to first.
Mauer’s good, yes, he’s the catching god right now…gets to cheat by DH’ing, blah blah…he got a sudden serge of power this year, too. Don’t know where that came from…
He and BMac are the best catchers in baseball (Y. Molina’s very good defensively)…and I think BMac loses a little value if you stick him at first base. Heck, his own father said he had to move to catcher if he wanted to go pro (too slow on the infield…).
beekay
June 15th, 2009
3:49 pm
Was at the game Sunday and left with the team down 11-0 and thoroughly disappointed. This is an average team that played awful in every category on Sunday. They usually lose when I go to see them play but at least they play like pros. Sunday was the worst I have ever witnessed from top to bottom….my report card with 100 games left
1b Kotch C+
2b KJ D
ss Yuni C (A for offense F for mental mistakes)
3b Chipper B
C Mccann B+
RF Frenchy D
CF Mcclouth C
RF Anderson D
SP Lowe B
SP JJ B+
SP Javy B+
SP KK B-
SP Hanson C-
RP-Gonzo B+
RP- Sori- A
RP-Oflar-B
RP-Moylan-D
RP Bennett-D
RP-Medlen C
RP-Acosta B-
Prado C+
Norton F
Diaz C+
Omar B+
Diory D
Barbaro C
richbrave
June 15th, 2009
3:49 pm
I wonder if our heroes attention got lost over on BALTIMORE’s infamous “block” the first night out?
TnBrian
June 15th, 2009
3:49 pm
sportsmandh, I agree that they shouldn’t make a big trade for a guy who’s gonna be a FA after ‘09, especially if they keep losing. But a trade like the McLouth trade is a smart move, winning or not. On the cheap pretty much for a few more seasons is always a smart trade to make.
Rock On....(the denizen formerly known as Dadgum)
June 15th, 2009
3:52 pm
DAP….maybe Heyward won’t be here in 2010 but it isn’t because he couldn’t be ready. You are talking about the rest of this year in the minors plus off-season plus ST prior to next season. Bottom-line is that he COULD be ready if that is the direction they want to go. Maybe the Braves want to spend 6-7 million for a stop-gap guy. Not sure. Word is Heyward is better offensively than Andruw was early on so it will be interesting.
Random
June 15th, 2009
3:53 pm
MFin04 (June 15th, 2009 2:41 pm): “If the Braves had Tex right now they would be a better team and would have won more games.”
Another ignorant “opinion” out of you???
It’s sure not a fact, being purely hypothetical.
And it’s just as surely not based on facts.
In 2007 and 2008, the Braves’ combined record for the partial season before the trade for Tex and the partial season after he was traded away was 79-84 (56-51 1st part 2007; 23-33 last part 2008).
And the Braves’ combined record for the two partial seasons they had Tex on the roster? 77-84 (28-27 2nd part 2007; 49-57 1st part 2008).
The 2007-2008 Braves certainly did NOT win more games with Tex — they won more games without him. Two more.
In fact, in 2007, the Braves were 5 games over .500 before getting Tex, and only 1 game over .500 thereafter. (And that was without the “benefit” of missing his notorious “slow start”.)
So, what we have here is just another partially chewed piece of half-baked pie-in-the-sky served up hot and fresh by you, courtesy of your never-ending “opinions”.
Gee, thanks.
richbrave
June 15th, 2009
3:56 pm
ROCK ON….DADGUM:
“Zup young man. The MIDLOTHIAN flash is on the job I see. I can’t wait to get the taste of crab-cakes out of my mouth. How about you?
Efrim
June 15th, 2009
3:58 pm
“just my opinion, but i think youve got to plan the outfield in 2010 as if heyward doesnt even exist”
DAP, I agree. Just hard to ignore the guy crushing it up in the minors and being ranked as the best prospect in baseball(non Strasburg/Wieters/Price division). I think Bay is staying in the AL East. Just not sure if it’s New York or Boston.
MFin04
June 15th, 2009
3:58 pm
Random – First of all Tex is a 2nd half of the season kind of player. So your “stats” aren’t that legit. And this team is much better off with the addition of McLouth and 3 or 4 new starters giving the Braves a chance to win every night.
McLouth, Esco,Chipper, Tex, McCann would make for one heck of a lineup.
Frank from KS
June 15th, 2009
3:59 pm
Dadgum
Now as I was saying about Glavine…..
LOL
j/k
Carroll Rogers
June 15th, 2009
4:00 pm
FYI on Smoltz….I know the Red Sox haven’t announced whether Smoltz will pitch Thursday in Pawtucket or the majors, but regardless, I’ve got it from a good source that he’ll be pitching Sunday, June 28, vs the Braves in Atlanta….That’s five days past whatever he does Thursday anyway.
sportsmandh
June 15th, 2009
4:01 pm
TnBrian,
I agree, love the McClouth trade. If you’ll look again I said I was in favor of being sellers and looking for young starters instead of making a dumb trade. (A dumb trade meaning having illusions that they can make a miracle run this year)
DAP
June 15th, 2009
4:01 pm
dadgum i dont really have an opinion on when heyward will be ready, i just dont want to see wren construct this offense next year as if certain things will happen, like heyward making the team in 2011.
i want to see wren make a good team and then make tuff decisions if heyward shows he is ready to start…see what im saying? no stop-gaps if you can get a major contributor.
i want wren to target holliday or bay in the offseason and go for guys like cameron and nady if the others cant be had.
in other words, wren needs to treat the offense like he did the pitching this past year. fix it.
Carroll Rogers
June 15th, 2009
4:02 pm
i mean 10 days past whatever he does Thursday. ….sorry….he would be in line to go June 23 and June 28 if all goes well.
getsomepower
June 15th, 2009
4:02 pm
The Braves need to getsomepower
MFin04
June 15th, 2009
4:03 pm
So Random if we could trade Kotchman for Tex straight up this year would you do it (with money, etc aside)?
sportsmandh
June 15th, 2009
4:04 pm
Carroll,
Can’t wait til we see your post that says you have it from a good source that Frenchy is on his way out.
(May sound mean but too much damage is done. Everyone talks about how GA acts like he doesn’t want to be here. Frenchy can say in an interview all the talk doesn’t bother him, but I have to wonder how much he even wants to be here.)
getsomepower
June 15th, 2009
4:04 pm
Smoltz vs. Lowe would be one great matchup. Each will be pitching against his former team.
Frank from KS
June 15th, 2009
4:04 pm
So…he will be facing the Braves Carroll…or won’t he?
Random
June 15th, 2009
4:04 pm
Carroll Rogers (June 15th, 2009 3:00 pm): “links are good too, eh?”
You mean, like the friggin link I put in to the BP comments page for that article? (sarcasm)
“links are good too, eh?”
Not when the content is available only to subscribers. (sincerity)
(But no, I’m not 100% sure that it’s NOT available to non-subscribers. Here IS the link now — see for yourself, if you can.)
MFin04
June 15th, 2009
4:06 pm
DAP – You really think Bay is available for Braves-like money? You don’t think he will go for Yankee/Red Sox type money?
I don’t see the Red Sox losing David Ortiz, Manny R. and Jason Bay. If anything Bay is the replacement for those two with Manny being in LA and Ortiz on the decline.
Tony Montana
June 15th, 2009
4:09 pm
Craig…. I no come over on no banana boat, my name is Tony Montana….I a political refuge fro’ Cuba!
JM
June 15th, 2009
4:09 pm
Excellent post, PWHjort. I’ve been saying the exact same things about the Braves for a couple of years now.
There is no reason for the team to be this mediocre. Francoeur is awful, but he’s just one guy. Just about every team in baseball has one or two holes in their lineup. I’m not saying we have a powerhouse lineup, but we have enough good hitters that we should be able to score four or five runs pretty consistently. It’s mystifying.
And certainly the pitching is good enough. I would put our rotation against anyone. Gonzo and Soriano are a great 1-2 punch out of the bullpen. O’Flaherty has been a great surprise, his last outing notwithstanding. Bennett has been more lucky than good, but nonetheless he’s gotten the job done most times out.
My theory all along has been that the Braves simply do not believe they can win, and after watching this team closely over the last four years I am almost convinced that is the case. We do just enough to stay in quasi-contention, but whenever it comes time to make a move we ALWAYS fall flat on our faces. It’s almost like we can’t handle success anymore. Everytime we win three or four in a row, we inevitably follow it up by losing four out of five. Even in 2007 when we started 24-12, we immediately proceeded to go 14-26 over the next forty games to drop right back to the .500 mark. Two more examples of this are this year after we started 5-1 and then dropped five straight, and after we swept the Blue Jays to move three games over .500, but then got swept by the Giants and have gone 7-12 overall since. This team’s inability to sustain success or any positive momentum has been frustrating as hell.
Like I said, it’s not a talent issue. I wish it were, then at least I could understand why we don’t win. But this is something that goes beyond talent. Have Bobby Cox and Terry Pendleton totally lost it? Was Bill Shanks on to something when he said the clubhouse chemistry was poor? These are potentially deep problems in the organization that go beyond the 25-man roster, and that’s what disturbs you a little bit.
DAP
June 15th, 2009
4:10 pm
efrimI think Bay is staying in the AL East. Just not sure if it’s New York or Boston
youre probably right, but wren has the resources to make a push for him, and will have enough to sign another couple of players if he cant get bay or holliday.
wren could probably get nady and cameron for what he would pay bay or holliday,a dn get righthanded bats with good power and good defense. Mclouth LF, Cameron CF (1 year 2nd year option), nady RF (2-3 year deal). that makes a big difference. there are several good outfielders available this offseason.
Piedmont Blues (ex-BFIR)
June 15th, 2009
4:13 pm
Anders made a good point at 3:58. Which could lead to some trouble unless Yunel straightens up and flies right. Here’s a quote from Tracy Ringolsby’s recent profile of Cox for FoxSports.com:
“We have always had tough players, team guys,” said Cox. “If they are not team guys they are only here for a year. Some people feel the clubhouse atmosphere is overblown. To me, it means a lot.”
Just look at the recent track record: Remember Bob Wickman and Macay McBride? You don’t jettison a very talented young player like Escobar even if he’s a total knucklehead. But Yunel needs to do and say all the right things, because if he doesn’t, the Braves will move him in the offseason — if not before.
And I really hope that’s doesn’t happen.
flange1
June 15th, 2009
4:13 pm
Random,
I checked the link, you can get a part of that story but not the entire story without joining. Thanks for posting the article, I enjoyed the read!
PWHjort
June 15th, 2009
4:13 pm
Haha, has anyone seen Joe Posnanski’s blog post on the “Comfort Wipe”? One of the funnier things I’ve read today:
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/06/14/finally-comfort-and-wipe-get-married/
DAP
June 15th, 2009
4:14 pm
MFin04You really think Bay is available for Braves-like money? You don’t think he will go for Yankee/Red Sox type money?
they all use the same type of money. i think the braves will be able to afford whatever bay ends up signing for, even if its with the red sox or yankees. should they spend that much, and would bay sign with atlanta over one of those teams? dont know.
PWHjort
June 15th, 2009
4:14 pm
JM,
You’re right on the money.
Efrim
June 15th, 2009
4:18 pm
DAP, I’d be shocked if the Braves payroll was the same for next year. No evidence to support such a claim, other than the economy and attendance. But my guess is that the Braves are going to see their 96 million dollar payroll come down. Not a considerable amount. Just less than the 96 million spent this year.
McFann :Ô:
June 15th, 2009
4:18 pm
Smoltz vs. the Braves? As I said before hope his former personal catcher takes him deep!
Thrillhouse44
June 15th, 2009
4:22 pm
You don’t want a double, McFann?
DAP
June 15th, 2009
4:22 pm
efrim could be. if that happens, who knows what will be available to us? but it sure would be a shame, with all the improvements already made to the team, to not finish it off…
Warhead
June 15th, 2009
4:24 pm
Say you’re Frank Wren … If the Braves could trade Escobar and get Bucholz in return, would you guys and gals do it?
MFin04
June 15th, 2009
4:26 pm
Thrillhouse44 – LoL, that’s fun. If it’s an RBI double McFann is all over it
Efrim
June 15th, 2009
4:27 pm
DAP, a lot of teams make due with less than a 96 million dollar payroll. They have A LOT of money invested in the pitching as oppose to the offense. It’s the highest difference among all major league clubs. No reason the Braves can’t trade a piece that makes some salary for a young player and a prospect. Not exactly like the Millwood for Estrada deal, but something along those lines.
getsomepower
June 15th, 2009
4:28 pm
Warhead…No
Efrim
June 15th, 2009
4:29 pm
“Say you’re Frank Wren … If the Braves could trade Escobar and get Bucholz in return, would you guys and gals do it?”
Nope. I’d want more.
aap
June 15th, 2009
4:30 pm
THE BRAVES HAVE ONE CHANCE TO HAVE SOMEONE START IN THE ALL-STAR GAME! PLEASE VOTE BRIAN MCCANN FOR THE ALL STAR GAME! MOLINA IS CURRENTLY BEATING HIM IN VOTES! ITS A SHAME IF MOLINA BEATS OUT MCCANN! COMPARE THEIR NUMBERS!
Chop Chop
June 15th, 2009
4:30 pm
I wouldn’t be surprised to see payroll come down $10 million or more next season.
getsomepower
June 15th, 2009
4:33 pm
Warhead, would you trade Youkilis for Escobar
Anders
June 15th, 2009
4:38 pm
Warhead, would you trade Youkilis for Escobar (getsomepower)
Why would the Red Soz trade Youkilis? Never, never gonna happen.
Warheads question about Escobar for Bucholz is at least possible. I’d make that deal if you get the SS from the Sox too.
Steve from OH
June 15th, 2009
4:38 pm
Warhead, would you trade Youkilis for Escobar
I’m assuming you’d play Youk at first, so then the question becomes–are Kotch/Esco better and/or cheaper than Youk and the replacement SS you have? Does this move also make financial sense for the club? Probably not either way.
RHR
June 15th, 2009
4:38 pm
have you guys seen bradley’s latest blog? since i’m not writing a new one today – sorry, following the off day strategy – maybe this can help keep you guys fed….
It annoyed me, actually. What’s the deal with Shultz and Bradley all of a sudden writing columns ripped straight out of the comments section of this blog? I guess anything for a good headline (page hits) … rinse, lather, repeat. There have been 3 or 4 different “trade Frenchy?” blogs or stories on this website in the last week alone. Ship. Sailed. Argh!
Anders
June 15th, 2009
4:40 pm
Steve – Come on. Escobar is not nearly the class of Youkilis as a player . At least not yet. Youkilis has made himself an elite star. Escobar is in development.
Would you trade McCann for Ellsbury? Kind of like that.
RHR
June 15th, 2009
4:41 pm
Hey Chop Chop, was you a teammate of Jeff Francoeur when y’all was at Parkview? Was you the smart one? Was you the one who always knowed Frenchy would make it when y’all went to the Dairy Queen with them girls after Jeffy was done hitting the was long was ball? Was ya?
MFin04
June 15th, 2009
4:42 pm
Bradley’s article was great. No B.S. just pointed out a lot of flaws with a lot of players on this team…KJ, Frenchy, Kotchman, etc.
McFann :Ô:
June 15th, 2009
4:44 pm
Thrillhouse44–
Oooo…an RBI double! I’d take that!!
RHR
June 15th, 2009
4:44 pm
THE BRAVES HAVE ONE CHANCE TO HAVE SOMEONE START IN THE ALL-STAR GAME! PLEASE VOTE BRIAN MCCANN FOR THE ALL STAR GAME! MOLINA IS CURRENTLY BEATING HIM IN VOTES! ITS A SHAME IF MOLINA BEATS OUT MCCANN! COMPARE THEIR NUMBERS!
YOU KNOW MCCANN IS IN 2ND PLACE AND THEY TAKE MORE THAN ONE CATCHER, RIGHT? I’D SAY HE’S GOT IT IN THE BAG!