Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
1,617 comments Add your comment
ppaddy123
June 1st, 2009
10:26 am
Jeff321, The Braves would be complete idiots for doing that. The guy is leading the NL in K’s, and is one of the top 20 pitchers in the NL
McFann :Ô:
June 1st, 2009
10:38 am
My thing’s not refreshing…this is a test…
McFann :Ô:
June 1st, 2009
10:39 am
OK…this is annoying…
TnBrian
June 1st, 2009
10:40 am
ppaddy123, the Braves would be idiots for trading Vazquez now, but not during the summer if Hanson is pitching well and if they believe Hudson can at least give them something in Aug/Sep. Dude makes $11.5M and the world can easily see how desperate our team is for a serious masher for the OF. Plus you’d probably still have Medlen.Vazquez more than likely isn’t a Brave this time next year because of the contract, nothing else. He has been awesome.
6-4-3
June 1st, 2009
10:41 am
I’m all for trading for DeRosa, especially now. He can play left at times, although Anderson is hitting a little better now, plus play right for Franceour on other nights. Not to mention with all the injuries in the infield (Chipper, Kotchman, and Infante) he’s about as valuable a utility man as you can get.
Ace
June 1st, 2009
10:42 am
Saw the bearded icon pitch 5 innings yesterday and the old man looked pretty tough. Sure wish he was rehabbing for the Bravos.
McFann :Ô:
June 1st, 2009
10:47 am
Oh, and hey–that second RBI single of Chipper’s? The play looked familiar…I think I saw Utley make that play once…
ppaddy123
June 1st, 2009
10:47 am
TnBrian , sorry, but I disagree. I think as the season progresses Kenshin Kawakami will continue to improve. I think he’ll be moved to a west coast team where he will have more fan support. He has more value on the west coast than he does on the east coast. Plus his contract is also very affordable. His 4.73 ERA is not too bad, but I think it will be around 4.0 by the break.
McFann :Ô:
June 1st, 2009
10:48 am
Just submitted my 100th All-Star Ballot.
Il Cattivo
June 1st, 2009
10:50 am
I read about Corey Hart being dangled for pitching (via mlbtraderumors, Boston Globe) and wondered yesterday if he might fit in too.RFer, RH hitter, career avg of .275 and 23 HRs, under control for a couple more years. I say hell yeah. Vazquez seems like a little too much for Hart alone. I was thinking more along the lines of Frenchie+Morton+some A/AA guy. Vazquez would offload salary and give us a spot to put Hanson in, but geez, Vazquez impresses every time even though he doesnt win as many.
Efrim
June 1st, 2009
10:54 am
Why would the Braves trade Vasquez, who is leading the league in strikeouts, for a bat? Can Tommy Hanson, as a rookie, do what Javy Vasquez is doing right now? I doubt it. I could see the Braves parting with Vasquez thi offseason, but not in June or July….unless they are trading him because they are out of it, which I don’t think will happen.
AndyC
June 1st, 2009
10:55 am
McFann, you are dedicated. I guess I need to submit my first one don’t I?!?.
Kevin McGlinchy
June 1st, 2009
10:55 am
Dude, Vazquez for Hart is “too much”? I hope your post is satirical.
bbraves
June 1st, 2009
10:58 am
Glad to see Anderson heating up. Hopefully he is going to continue the good hitting. Would be nice to see Diaz getting more starts in RF.
McFann :Ô:
June 1st, 2009
11:00 am
AndyC–
Not as dedicated as the Dodgers fans, apparently, but thanks!
I guess I need to submit my first one don’t I?!?
Yeah! Come on, we need your support!
VOTE McCANN 2009 ALL-STAR!!!!
ppaddy123
June 1st, 2009
11:01 am
With GA heating up, let’s hope Bobby let’s Diaz play RF A BUNCH!
N8
June 1st, 2009
11:04 am
scoots, not a bad idea at 8:57. I too like Morton and think he could be in the rotation for a few years, and be productive. We’ve invested this much time in him, why not see that time pay off FOR US?
If we were “one trade” away from being serious WS contenders, and a team demanded we include Morton, then, sure. Go for it. But we’re not. We’re many trades away. So why bother?
That is why, I say Wren should make many “smaller” trades for utility type guys and ride it out, seeing how lucky we get. No need to make a big splash, selling off the future, when there isn’t a guarantee that said big move will actually make a difference.
As for keeping Hanson down all year? I don’t know. If Glavine is remotely close to his old self and Kawakami becomes more consistent, then yeah. Why not? But the way I understand it, the time has already past, that won’t use up a “year” of his arbitration eligibilty, so no risk there in losing him a year early (or paying big bucks in another arbitration year).
If Glavine or Kawakami falters, Hanson should be up immediately.
But in a perfect world, we won’t need him or Morton this year, and they can come up from spring training next year, rarin’ to go.
On the flip side, with Hanson, I think he might need that “adjustment” period either way, so perhaps better to get his first few big-league starts out of the way THIS YEAR, so he’s “ready” at the beginning of next year.
I’ll assume by you saying the rotatin should be: Lowe, Hudson, JJJ, Morton and Hanson next year, you’d trade both Vazquez and Kawakami in the off-season? Not a chance, that they move Kawakami to the pen, IMO.
I don’t know if I agree with that either. If we are out of it the deadline, why not move BOTH of them this year? I think Vazquez would have more trade value for the stretch run, as would KK if he becomes more consistent as the year goes on.
Hell, if Morton and Hanson continue to dominate at AAA, it STILL might be a decent move to move one (or both) of them even if we are still in it, to get that big bat we need. But to be realistic, I don’t think Wren would gamble that. Only way either or both of them are moved this year, is if we fall way out of it by then. Which could certainly happen if the offense isn’t fixed soon.
I’m just as anxious to see Hanson as anybody. But if Glavine looks good enough to be our 5th starter, it’s gonna be a while before we see him.
Il Cattivo
June 1st, 2009
11:05 am
No its not satirical, which you could’vew gathered if you read the entire post. So I take it your question is rhetorical. Each one has their own estimation of Vazquez and what he brings to the table. For 11.5 mil I think he gives the Brewers an experienced starting pitcher who strikes out a lot of people (if you looked at their current rotation, he could be a leader). For us he is a no.3 who eats a lot of innings. And its for Corey Hart, who isnt exactly a premier slugger, more like what Frenchie should’ve been this year. So I say if Vazquez is sent to them we should be getting Hart + a lower minor league guy. How is that satire?
MFin04
June 1st, 2009
11:07 am
Kris Medlen, Jo-Jo Reyes or Charlie Morton for DeRosa?
Maybe for Jo-Jo but I wouldn’t trade Medlen or Morton for him. He isn’t that big of an impact bat (not sure if we would try him in CF either). And Medlen and/or Morton would most likely be part of a package for someone better than DeRosa.
CB
June 1st, 2009
11:08 am
With the amount of pitching the Braves have at Gwinnett waiting, they would be foolish Not to consider trading Vazquez for a outfield bat. It just needs to be an equal value trade. I also love to watch Javy pitch, but have to make this offense better! We have to deal from a position of strength.
N8
June 1st, 2009
11:10 am
Trading Morton for Hart, would be a bigger mistake than trading Vazquez for Hart.
But neither are going to happen.
Besides. He’s hitting .256 with 5 HR and 19 RBI, with a .328 OBP. How is really any better than Jeff’s 3 HR, 23 RBI and .275 OBP?
Unless you’re of the belief that a “change of scenery” would do both guys some good? But in that case, then you certainly don’t do anything more than swap the two players for each other. For us to give them Frenchy AND either Morton/Vazquez would be as bad of a trade as Detroit giving us JJJ and Gorkys for Renteria.
Now, if they wanna talk about including young Prince Fielder in the trade……
ppaddy123
June 1st, 2009
11:18 am
Funny story……in 2005 I told my then 10 year old daughter I had found a boy I would approve of her one day marrying(Jeff Francoeur). Well, it’s 4 years later and………………..nevermind
Efrim
June 1st, 2009
11:21 am
“Trading Morton for Hart, would be a bigger mistake than trading Vazquez for Hart.”
Trading for Hart and giving up a lot would be a bad thing, period. He hasn’t really been that good of a major leaguer. Career .274/.323/.477 hitter. Better than what we have, for sure. But not worth giving up THAT much for.
FaninFaytown
June 1st, 2009
11:23 am
I just cant justify trading Javy right now. Unless someone just blows us away with an offer for a huge bat I think this far into our season we cant give up a guy who has been one of our better pitchers. Yes we have Glavine coming back. Yes Medlen looked good yesterday and yes we have a few guys in AAA that seem ready to go. But those guys havent proven themselves here yet, and I don’t have enough faith in KK or Glavin/Medlen just yet.
Il Cattivo
June 1st, 2009
11:26 am
N8,
Hart just went through his first year of arbitration and has been a little more consistent than Frenchie. Brings some speed to the table – stole 23 bases each of the last 2 years. He is primarily a RFer but has played LF and CF. He has roughly the same salary as Frenchie. So he makes sense to me. Its Frenchie+pitching (to offset his low value) or Vazquez (no Frenchie) for Hart+someone else. The someone else would make it closer. I dont think either situation is close to the detroit trade. You think Vazquez for Hart is too much – meet Kevin McGlinchy.
The Real George Bush
June 1st, 2009
11:34 am
Il Cattivo, Trading Vasquez (the heart of our pitching lineup) for a marginally skilled Corey Heart just wouldn’t be prudent……not prudent at all!
MFin04
June 1st, 2009
11:34 am
You don’t trade young pitching (that could possibly be great one day) for an average outfielder or an everyday utility guy, correct?
CB
June 1st, 2009
11:37 am
OK, for all those wise people, what is an equal value outfielder trade for Vazquez?
flange1
June 1st, 2009
11:37 am
If Hart is all that Javy is worth, I would keep Javy!!
Maybe a Frenchy + JoJo, but that is about all I would consider. He just is not that big an upgrade!
MFin04
June 1st, 2009
11:38 am
By the way, this team is pretty darn good when Kelly Johnson and Yunel Escobar show up to play on the same day. Be nice if we can consistently get KJ, Esco, and GA going at the same time. Read that Chipper is probably going to the DL soon. Not surprising, since he always plays on a injury, hurts it worse, then misses more time than he should have.
Any clue when Chipper to the DL, happens?
Willy Wally
June 1st, 2009
11:38 am
They could always move Kawakami to closer next season. Soriano and Gonzalez’s $10 mil or so will be coming off the books. Kawakami, making $8 mil, could be slotted into their money and role, and you’d still have enough left over to get another quality free agent reliever or ar-eligible reliever to partner with Kawakami and to go with the 5 other league minimum making relievers, which seems to be the M.O. of the Braves.
Teams with elite closers pay between $13 to $15 mil for those elite closers, and then seem to fill the rest of the pen with league minimums. The Braves seem to prefer to use that $13 to $15 mil for two very strong 7th, 8th, 9th relievers while filling the rest of the pen with league minimums.
Kawakami can strike folks out, and has been pretty good in the first innings he’s pitched this season, but hasn’t eaten enough innings as a starter this season ….. and as someone noted the other day, he does have a Rolaids Relief Man clause in his contract.
That would give you a rotation of Jurrjens, Lowe, Vazquez, Hudson, Hanson with Kawakami as the closer. Guess it may depend upon what Jurrjens gets as a Super 2 or if they add an expensive big bat …. or upon the attendance not generating enough revenue to justify that much money being allocated to the pitching.
MFin04
June 1st, 2009
11:39 am
Hart is a downgrade defensively in RF or CF.
Daslied
June 1st, 2009
11:42 am
“OK, for all those wise people, what is an equal value outfielder trade for Vazquez?”
Dye.
KC
June 1st, 2009
11:44 am
Mark Bradley: “But Frank Wren, Stark also writes, won’t part with any of his top-tier arms, meaning a trade partner would have to settle for Kris Medlen, Jo-Jo Reyes or Charlie Morton.
Huh?
Chris Medlen and Charlie Morton aren’t considered top-tier arms within this organization??
Have to disagree with putting Medlen and Morton in the same category as JoJo. I think their stock is significantly higher than Reyes’.
CB
June 1st, 2009
11:46 am
Daslied Vazquez was traded away from White Sox to Braves.
Roman Gal
June 1st, 2009
11:47 am
Then, start ‘em both at the back of the 2010 rotation, where expectations are lower. With Lowe, Hudson, and Jurrjens fronting. ncscoots
Love that idea. I really like Javy, but I think that starting five is the best we could hope for.
ppaddy123
June 1st, 2009
11:47 am
Willy Wally, KK averages .86 K’s per inning, while the NL leader averages 1.22 per inning. The guy is a starting pitcher. He has more value as a starting pitcher.
ppaddy123
June 1st, 2009
11:48 am
Daslied, sorry but Ozzie HATES Vasquez
braves70
June 1st, 2009
11:49 am
If the Braves work out some type of deal with the Brewers, perhaps it could include the Brewers AAA OF Brendan Katin. He was a college star at Miami and is currently hitting .293 with 10 HR and 40 RBI. In 2008 he hit .271 with 19 HR and 72RBI. If Corey Hart is the main target then a guy like Katin would be a nice throw-in.
If not him then there is Matt Gamel who hit .325 20 HR and 99 RBI in 2008 and now is with the Brewers. Also Alcides Escobar SS-2B who is hitting .294 with 21 SB and in 2008 hit .328 with 34 SB.
MFin04
June 1st, 2009
11:49 am
KC – that’s the article I was alluding to…above. Medlen and Morton are considered top-tier arms in this organization, especially with most of our starters being aging veterans.
At some point you’d have to hope that a rotation of Jurrjens, Hanson, Medlen, Morton would happen if they continue to develop?
I don’t see the Braves parting with Medlen, maybe Morton, but they’d have to get something pretty special in return, not a guy like Corey Hart or Mark DeRosa.
ppaddy123
June 1st, 2009
11:50 am
I fart on Corey Hart
ppaddy123
June 1st, 2009
11:52 am
What did Cleveland give up to get DeRossa?
cabravesfan
June 1st, 2009
11:53 am
I’d say he’s a fan of the west coast
RHR-
Ever been to San Diego? You wouldn’t want to trade that for Philadelphia, Chicago, or just about anywhere else either
Efrim
June 1st, 2009
11:55 am
If Chipper has to go on the DL, I’d rather him get it done now, than during the stretch where we face the Red Sox, Yankees and Phillies for 12 straight games. I believe that starts June 16th(?).
Original Jon
June 1st, 2009
11:57 am
Derosa was traded for minor league pitchers Jeff Stevens, Chris Archer, and John Gaub.
Daslied
June 1st, 2009
11:58 am
CB/Ppaddy – I know. Hence the smiley face.
crap-wheelie
June 1st, 2009
11:59 am
Do not trade Medlen. He’s going to be a good one.
braves70
June 1st, 2009
11:59 am
ppaddy123
DeRosa trade:
December 31, 2008: Traded by the Chicago Cubs to the Cleveland Indians for Chris Archer (minors), Jeff Stevens (minors) and John Gaub (minors).
The Cubs had to get rid of DeRosa’s contract so they could sign Milton Bradley.
Il Cattivo
June 1st, 2009
11:59 am
KC,
Morton – better upside based on minors. Jo-Jo does pretty well in the minors too.
In the majors
Morton – 6.15 ERA, 1.62 WHIP, Opp Avg .273 (16 games)
Reyes – 6.05 ERA, 1.63 WHIP, Opp Avg .292 (40 games)
So far they look quite similar, though Reyes has struggled longer.
Il Cattivo
June 1st, 2009
12:03 pm
“most of our starters being aging veterans” MFin04
Who are these people? In the current rotation, the oldest is Lowe, 36 who is extremely durable.
Glavine isnt in the rotation yet.Vazquez,Kawakami,Jurrjens,Hudson – all aging veterans??!!
Anders
June 1st, 2009
12:04 pm
Efrim- read something in the NY Daily’s that shocked me yesterday. Crosby STILL lives with Mario Lemiuex and his family? The face of hockey doesn’t have a place of his own years into his career? I know he’s only 21 but come on.
Not to mention living with the owner is a little weird to begin with. I understood it when he first broke on the scene at 18 (Although living with another veteran player is more common) but still 4 years later?
Maybe he needs to gain a little more independence to take that next step? I was just really surprised when I read about this.
I think your boys are done. They just don’t look ready yet to beat a veteran deep team like the Wings.They needed perfect goaltending and some breaks and so far haven’t gotten either.
njbraves
June 1st, 2009
12:05 pm
Willy Wally…you should be proud. You have come up with ine of the top 5 dumbest ideas ever posted on here and that’s saying something. KK will not be moved to the closer’s role my friend…not ever going to happen for so many reasons I don’t even know where to start.
KC
June 1st, 2009
12:09 pm
MFin04, agreed. The Braves would have to get something special to consider parting with Morton or Medlen. I think Bradley is writing based on his own opinion (of Medlen and Morton), rather than what the Braves actually think of those guys.
There is nothing more sickening than trading away a guy who turns out to an ace. If I were the Tigers’ GM, I STILL wouldn’t be able to sleep at night over that Renteria/Jurrjens trade, which might turn out even WORSE for Detroit if G.Hernandez winds up being our everyday leadoff man in a year or two.
Medlen and Morton both have a chance to be an ace at the big league level. That doesn’t mean they will, of course… but if you had a lotto ticket that you knew had even a 1 in 4 chance of being the winning ticket, wouldn’t you be reticent to part with it?
As for JoJo Reyes, he HAS shown flashes of brilliance, and I believe he does have a chance to be a quality starter in the big leagues eventually. But he certainly appears to be less likely to even become and “ace” than Morton or Medlen.
Anyway, when it comes to a guy like DeRosa, I think the Braves might be willing to give them guys like JoJo, Campillo, and/or one or two of a number of somewhat promising relievers the Braves have at AA and AAA.
flange1
June 1st, 2009
12:11 pm
njbraves,
I don’t think Willy Wally’s idea was that bad!
Let’s hear your reasons why KK can’t be a closer.
KC
June 1st, 2009
12:12 pm
Il Cattivo, yeah… the difference between Reyes and Morton is that, for one (as you pointed out), we’ve had a larger sample size of JoJo at the big league level. And second… Morton has a little better stuff.
Jeffrey
June 1st, 2009
12:14 pm
MEDIOCRITY..THAT’S WHAT YOU GET WITH THE BRAVES AND WILL CONTINUE TO GET AS LONG AS “WASHED UP” BOBBY COX REMAINS THEIR MANAGER..TIME TO MOVE ON FROM THE COX ERA..HE’S HAD A HALL OF FAME CAREER BASED ON REGULAR SEASON PERFORMANCE EVEN THOUGH HIS TEAMS COULDN’T DELIVER IN THE POST SEASON, SET ASIDE THE LONG CHAMPIONSHIP IN ‘95..TIME TO MOVE ON BRAVES..TAKE A PAGE OUT OF ARTHUR BLANK’S BOOK..LOOK WHAT THE FALCONS DID..GOT RID OF A LOUSY COACH..BROUGHT IN MIKE SMITH AND THEY IMMEDIATELY MAKE THE PLAYOFFS!! NEW PHILOSOPHY, NEW ATTITUDE..THAT’S WHAT THE BRAVES NEED..THIS SAME O SAME O, “GOOD OL BOY ROUTINE” WITH COX AND THE BRAVES HAS LONG SINCE RUN ITS COURSE..GET RID OF COX AND GET BACK IN THE PLAYOFFS!! NOW THEY’RE IN THE MIDST OF A NEW STREAK..AFTER MAKING THE PLAYOFFS FOR 14 STRAIGHT YEARS, THEY’LL MISS IT THIS YEAR FOR THE 4TH STRAIGHT YEAR!!
Free Tommy Hanson
June 1st, 2009
12:15 pm
Javy Vazquez and Cash considerations for Corey Hart and a prospect makes a ton of sense for both team’s standpoints. We need a right handed bat and Hart fills a lot of voids. The Brewers need pitching and Javy gives them someone to back up Gallardo with. We need to sell high on Javy if at all possible.
Il Cattivo
June 1st, 2009
12:17 pm
People – we traded 3 minor leaguers + Lillibridge (who really has struggled at the majors) for Vazquez + Logan.Admittedly Flowers has great potential. Do you really think we will get a great slugger for Vazquez? Corey Hart + minor league player with good upside isnt as bad as some here make it out to be.
Anders
June 1st, 2009
12:18 pm
Cabravesfan – Agreed on San Diego. one of my favorite cities to visit. Spectacular most days.
Willy Wally
June 1st, 2009
12:19 pm
Willy Wally, KK averages .86 K’s per inning, while the NL leader averages 1.22 per inning. The guy is a starting pitcher. He has more value as a starting pitcher. (ppaddy)
Kawakami is a starting pitcher allowing 5.44 runs per 9 innings, which is a replacement level ratio, while not eating many innings. Kawakami’s not providing much value at all as a starting pitcher. He’s averaging 7.7 Ks per 9 as a starter, however, which likely means he’d average more Ks as a reliever. He also has about a 2 to 1 K ratio, which, again, would likely increase if he was used as a closer instead of as a starter. He’d likely be a serviceable enough closer at $8 million (a la Wickman at $6 mil) while never being much more than a glorified replacement level starter. You’re better off starting someone making the league minimum to pitch like a replacement level starter than you are paying Kawakami $8 million to allow as many runs every nine innings as a replacement level starter would. Kawakami would better justify his salary as a closer than as a starter (unless he dramatically alters the amount of runs he allows every 9 innings as a starter). If you don’t believe he can be serviceable enough as a closer, then find someone willing to annually take on $5 mil or so of the rest of his contract, while the Braves annually eat $3 mil or so.
FaninFaytown
June 1st, 2009
12:21 pm
dont type in all caps… just dont
Steve from OH
June 1st, 2009
12:21 pm
Efrim, I don’t know if the ‘Pens can win the series, but I do see them taking at least one at Pittsburgh. Bylsma better use that last change to his advantage to get Geno and Sidney out there against someone not named Lidstrom or Zetterberg. What does that say about the Wings’ depth when they can lose their best forward (Datsyuk) and tell their other superstar to shadow Sid and not worry about where their offensive production is coming from? Deep, deep team. I’m also really surprised that Osgood keeps pulling all these saves out of his arse. Where was this guy in the regular season?
I didn’t feel like any of the Wings’ goals were off lucky bounces. Fleury let up a cheap one off Abdelkader, and there were a few lucky bounces keeping the puck out of the Wings’ net (Guerin’s post shot was one) but the Wings have hit a few pipes too. The Wings have the advantage to run out 4 lines while the Pens are relying on more like 2 1/2.
Lew
June 1st, 2009
12:24 pm
Re:The Offense-Just did some extremely cursory research on Garrett Anderson’s seasonal starts in recent years since it looks like he’s heating up.
Apparently, 09 is not at all unlike his starts the past several years (since passing his prime years).
On June 1- And ending (BA)
06-.276 (.280)
07-.255 (.297)
08-.276 (.293)
09-.266
Looks like he is a somewhat slow starter, which may well have been exacerbated this year by his early injuries and learning the pitchers in a new league and is heating up right on pace with what he normally does.
Il Cattivo
June 1st, 2009
12:24 pm
Agreed on Morton KC. But Reyes has a better value as a lefty. Also Morton does have confidence issues. Dont know if he will become another Kyle Davies type of guy. Also Morton has a greater value now as a prospect with great potential. If he comes up again and struggles, we wont get much for him. So better trade him now than wait and see him fail. Medlen is a keeper though.
Lew
June 1st, 2009
12:25 pm
Jeffrey-Turn off the cap lock and slowly back away from your computer.
Piedmont Blues (ex-BFIR)
June 1st, 2009
12:27 pm
Il Cattivo (12:24)
Wise words. Morton’s also going to be 26 in October. He’s in his ninth professional season. He’s had two really solid years in the minors but otherwise a mediocre pro career.
In other words, he’s moving from prospect to suspect. So if the Braves can get a decent return for him, now may be the time to move.
And I do like Medlen.
N8
June 1st, 2009
12:31 pm
II Cattivo, your ability to “reason” or see that value of traded players (or prospective traded players), can change, and DOES change, tells me you’re about 12 years old. Or you just started following baseball this year.
If you think Corey Hart is a significant upgrade at ANY of the three OF positions (I don’t – and most of you know how I feel about the outfielders we have), to give up Vazquez OR Morton for, I don’t know what to tell you. Other than HE’s NOT.
Don’t give me Hart’s SB totals last year, or the year before. What is he doing NOW? We need help NOW. Jeff had double digit steals in the minors. He can run. Bobby just doesn’t run that much as a manager. Case in point, is Ryan Klesko having 26 SB’s in 9 seasons with the Braves (that’s 26 TOTAL), and proceeding to have 23 SB’s in EACH of his first two seasons in SD.
What a player did in terms of SB for another manager, quite simply, means nothing.
As for what we gave up for Vazquez and what we can expect in return??
Seriously? Really? OK. We also got Gorkys Hernandez and JJJ for Edgar Renteria. Do you think SF is getting that same package for Renteria? Nope. His value has since changed.
On the flip side, I’d assume we’d get MORE than a guy like Renteria, if WE chose to trade both JJJ and Gorkys in the same deal. See, as players play better or worse….. magically their “value” changes.
We traded a guy listed in the top 100 prospects (Flowers) for Vazquez, because Vazquez had a crappy year last year, and his manager didn’t like him very much. They sold low. We snuck in and got “good value”.
If we are out of the race, and Vazquez continues to pitch as he has been. I’d bet my left maple-nut that we’d get more than a AA catcher for him. Perhaps not Prince Fielder or Ryan Howard “straight up”. But certainly more than a “prospect”.
Don’t mean to sound insulting to you. But your reasoning seems way off to me.
I’m not so sure I trae Jo-Jo straight up for Corey Hart. Like I said. He’s Jeff Francoeur with another name on the back of his jersey. There is a REASON that Milwaukee is “shopping” him. Just like there is a REASON the Braves might entertain offers for Jeff. Just think about it for a second.
Willy Wally
June 1st, 2009
12:32 pm
Willy Wally…you should be proud. You have come up with ine of the top 5 dumbest ideas ever posted on here and that’s saying something. KK will not be moved to the closer’s role my friend…not ever going to happen for so many reasons I don’t even know where to start. (NJBRAVES)
Really? Care to explain in a way that shows you are capable of something more intelligent than name calling? Have you just been so impressed with that 4.73 ERA and 5.44 runs allowed every 9 innings, that you just can’t envision KK as anything other than a starter? For crying out loud, KK’s ERA is higher than the league average runs per game (4.58). His runs every 9 innings (5.44) is almost a full run higher than the league average runs per game (4.58).
Chuck James got thrown out of the rotation, even though he only allowed 4.30 runs every 9 innings in 2007, while the league average in 2007 was 4.7 runs ever game. If you think KK as a closer won’t work because he stinks as a pitcher, then I might not argue much with you. But beyond this year, he’s either got to be a closer or he’s got to be shipped out, ’cause he’s a waste of money as a starting pitcher, and he standing in the way of younger, cheaper options that are just as good or better.
Kawakami should not figure into anyone’s plans as a starter beyond this season. You either find other roles to justify his contract, or you find some other team willing to do so.
Anders
June 1st, 2009
12:33 pm
Manuel is getting skewered on the NY radio shows today for the lineup he put on the field on Saturday. Believe me I’m glad I didn’t spend my hard earned money to go see that lineup with only Beltran among the regulars but what was he supposed to do? He recognized that Redding against Johnson was a longshot anyway. The Mets have been hammered by injuries and went 5-1 on the homestand. Granted it was the nats and marlins but the mets played numerous AAA guys . Manuel should be lauded for maneuvering through the week, not to mention the previous road trip in or close to 1st place.
It’s tough up here. There’s always some radio host looking for an angle to stir crap up and bring ears to the show.
CB
June 1st, 2009
12:38 pm
Lew I think Anderson is starting to show enough value hitting wise to sustain his one year contract. It is maddening to see his lack of hustle in the outfield, and yesterday when he struck out and the catcher did not catch the ball he did not even make the effort to run to 1st base. I know we live in a different time, but would have killed him to run?
McFann :Ô:
June 1st, 2009
12:40 pm
Anders–
Hu…at least you guys are only a half-a-game outta first. Seven games over .500 must be pretty fun…
N8
June 1st, 2009
12:41 pm
Great post KC.
Trades (like free agency with the agent working the phones), are about leverage and “supply & demand”. Period. They very often have little to do with a players “perceived” value.
Had we NOT had Brian McCann, Salty would have had more “value” to us, as a catcher. Thus JS could ask for more in return (or have given one less prospect up for Tex, perhaps). But everybody and their mother knew we had no spot for him. Which decreased JS’s leverage.
Vazquez having a rough year last year, along with his manager PUBLICLY saying he had no faith in him, decreased his value. Teams KNEW he was going to be traded.
Cleveland has ALL the leverage (especially this early) with a guy like DeRosa. I have a feeling, they’ll get more for him than they normally would, because of his versatility and the fact that many teams are allegedly interested.
It’s all about perception and making the opposing GM feel the “heat” to take the deal you’re offering. Whether you are the seller or the buyer.
I wouldn’t advocate giving up the farm for DeRosa. But in the end, it all depends on how much Wren wants to give up to have a shot, and how close he REALLY thinks the team is at said shot.
Steve from OH
June 1st, 2009
12:45 pm
Efrim, do you ever read http://www.puckprospectus.com? Great site. Totally free, too.
McFann :Ô:
June 1st, 2009
12:47 pm
Neight Had we NOT had Brian McCann…
Eeoo…that wouldn’t have been any fun…
monty
June 1st, 2009
12:51 pm
So many bloggers are wanting to trade away our up and coming pitching prospects,not too smart IMHO. I guess if it’s someone you’ve given up on or don’t forsee being in your rotation in 2-3 years maybe, or if you have a chance at getting that certain big bat you’ve been drooling over ala Crime Dog (Mcgriff)then OK but for a Corey Hart or a Dero type player, AH-uh! You’ve got to hold them Ace’s. You sure as heck don’t want to trade away your next 15-20 game winner when the first 5 years they are dirt cheap, payroll wise.
Pete
June 1st, 2009
12:56 pm
joe fan: “BTW, Greenville has such a nice stadium and the attendance is great considering it is single A ball; 7,129 in attendance tonight,….”
Well obviously, thats because Smoltz was pitching.
Pete
June 1st, 2009
12:58 pm
JD: “I might have to eat my words, but I’m pretty sure Francoeur isn’t going anywhere.”
Would you like some salt lol
Piedmont Blues (ex-BFIR)
June 1st, 2009
12:58 pm
monty,
Depends on what “aces” you’re talking about. The team needs a hitter. It has pitching to deal without surrendering the genuine can’t-miss guys (we all know who they are). If you’re unwilling to deal somebody to fill an obvious immediate need, then why did the club spend all that money on Lowe and Kawakami (and Vazquez’s salary) if if didn’t intend to win in 2009? Would have been much cheaper to pocket that money or fill the staff with bargain-basement free agents and wait on the kids to be ready for the majors.
I’m not the first to say this (DOB has often), but the purpose of your farm system is both to develop talent for the big club and fill holes on the big league roster, especially when you have a surplus of ability in certain positions.
Steve from OH
June 1st, 2009
1:03 pm
Peidmont Blues, good post. I’ve got no problem trading Medlen/Morton/Reyes, but if we’re going to use the farm system to fill holes on the big club, we’d better fill them with players under club control for more than a year.
ncscoots
June 1st, 2009
1:05 pm
In other words, [Morton is] moving from prospect to suspect.
I wouldn’t disagree with that…at least, wholeheartedly, LOL. But, there is a sharply visible demarcation in his stats from his earlier years and his recent years, which says to me that he started to figure it out a little. That AFL he had two seasons ago was an eye-opener, and not just for scouts, but also for the kid himself. Makeup, admittedly, has been his most obvious lack, and you don’t normally pick that up just in side sessions, so, yes, you could be selling high on the guy if you move him now, if the FO doesn’t think he’ll gain the mental part of the game.
On the other hand, if you move him and his head clicks somewhere else, you won’t have to worry about posts on Adam Wainwright ever again, LOL.
brian
June 1st, 2009
1:08 pm
speaking of supply and demand, has DeRosa really done anything special this season for Cleveland to demand a king’s ransom for a trade?
If they push the trade demands up to much you will get other clubs involved basically saying if the Braves are willing to trade x,y, and z for DeRo then how about considering our player.
Steve from OH
June 1st, 2009
1:10 pm
scoots, I see Morton as a prospect. I think he’ll have his struggles as he continues to break into the league, but like you said, throw him in the five spot and let him work it out with Huddy, JJ, Lowe and Hanson/Vazquez ahead of him. He’ll be a good one before all is said and done, I think.
Lew
June 1st, 2009
1:11 pm
CB-I have no idea why the seeming lackadaisical attitude. I just haven’t watched him enough over the years to have a true idea of what’s normal with Garrett. Maybe the legs are still bothering him or his legs just aren’t what they used to be. I just don’t know. However, if he keeps knocking in runs and hitting for power (several 2B hits in addition to that HR) like the past week, he’ll be-as you say-a worthwhile one year expenditure, as well as a solid offensive force. When he hits, we’re a lot better than when he doesn’t. Now if someone can just get Frenchy moving, we might just make it through the season in good shape with the addition of a player like DeRosa-especially now that Infante is down. Let’s hope Yunel stays healthy and hot at the plate and KJ stays on about a 25 game hitting streak.
Piedmont Blues (ex-BFIR)
June 1st, 2009
1:12 pm
Steve,
Getting players we can keep for more than one year would be my preference, too. But it would really depend on the deal. If we could move Morton or JoJo for a Holliday-type bat, knowing fully well we’d lose him at the end of 2009 (or in actuality we would get a draft pick or two when he walked), I’d take that chance.
Now the reality is, Oakland’s going to want a lot more than that for Holliday. But I’m not averse to making that kind of deal under very limited circumstances if it brings you the one guy you need to make the postseason.
ncscoots,
I think we both know the risk with Morton is that he gets a callup and then looks completely lost again when he’s facing major league hitters. Then he becomes, well, JoJo Reyes II. A guy with potential … and who doesn’t have much trade value, either.
Steve from OH
June 1st, 2009
1:17 pm
Piedmont, agree again!
RHR
June 1st, 2009
1:19 pm
RHR-
Ever been to San Diego? You wouldn’t want to trade that for Philadelphia, Chicago, or just about anywhere else either
Yes I have, thats why I’ve said before when Peavy rejected previous offers, that I wouldn’t want to leave San Diego either. There’s not a more beautiful city in all of baseball that I know of.
bravesgirlnc
June 1st, 2009
1:22 pm
Just a side note on the Morton numbers and talk. Remember that he was hurt at the end of last year and I think his numbers are really skewed because of it. JoJo is just stubborn. Big difference when comparing the two of them.
Steve from OH
June 1st, 2009
1:24 pm
Good point, bravesgirl, but he’ll still struggle as he adjusts to the league. Comes with the territory. But he’ll be much better next time around.
Jeff R
June 1st, 2009
1:25 pm
Problem with Kawakami relieving is arm or shoulder fatigue. You’ve got to throw your best stuff every appearance as a closer, and may have to do it on multiple successive nights. And a closer may appear in 60-70 games a season.
The Braves want to win. Why would they let Soriano and Gonzo walk, unless their numbers tank this season?
Does Kawakami have a no trade clause? If not, I’d move him before I’d let Soriano and Gonzo go.
And, come to think of it, would Cleveland take Kawakami for DeRosa? That would certainly make room for Hanson.
Oh, and does Wren resign Hudson with Hanson and Medlen in the wings? I don’t think so.
Trade Vasquez? He’s been absolutely soild. The weak links in the rotation have been the 4/5 slots. Dealing Vasquez makes no sense.
Il Cattivo
June 1st, 2009
1:27 pm
N8
Are you familiar with “slumps”. Frenchie has had a few good months. Hart has had a couple of bad months. But somehow you have the gall to think my reasoning is flawed.
cabravesfan
June 1st, 2009
1:27 pm
RHR-
not to mention that San Diego is probably the best pitchers park in the league and Philly…isn’t
FaninFaytown
June 1st, 2009
1:29 pm
Jeff R I’m with you on JV being solid. I would definately prefer to keep him, but if we can possibly get a big bat by trading him and keeping most everything else then I would have to take that. Kawakami, on the other hand, has very little trade value right now and it would take him plus at least one or maybe two other very solid prospects to get much.
FaninFaytown
June 1st, 2009
1:31 pm
Now if we could package KK and Francoeur for someone solid? I don’t know, but we could throw things around all day. I hope we catch wind of something going on soon though.
flange1
June 1st, 2009
1:36 pm
Piedmont,
Good posts as usual!
I wonder what Holliday is worth?
I guess I compare him to Tex, we received Kotchman and Marek for 1/2 year of Tex.
A little more time now for Holliday 2/3 of the year, but I wonder if KJ or Kotch + Marek would do the trick. What about Frenchy + JoJo? Maybe Fenchy + JoJo + Marek?
NOT trying to propose trades s much as trying to determine what Holliday is worth….
Thoughts?
AndyC
June 1st, 2009
1:36 pm
Guys, I was just looking at Corey Hart’s numbers and they are pretty similar to Frecnchy’s. I think N8 is right. I don’t think this is the “big bopper” that the Braves need to compete.
David O'Brien
June 1st, 2009
1:37 pm
Just watched Breaking Bad, compelling finale to a terrific season. Didn’t see that coming. Not sure what to think of the body bags tease at beginning….
JED: Nope, no Doug Pettibone in current Buick 6. Which really surprised me, because he’s been with Lu for so long. But he’s been replaced in the band, at least for now (don’t know if that’s just a temporary thing while he does solo stuff, or what).
A dude named Eric Schermerhorn replaced him, and he’s strong. Has played with Iggy Pop, The The and others, which might explain why the band sounds a little more toward a straight-ahead rock sound. You wouldn’t think that a band without Pettibone might actually be better than with him (since he’s always been the best in her band and one of the best, period), but this band sounds better than ever behind her. Don’t know if it’s Lu being in a great mood these days, and she and them deciding to rock a little harder, or what. But it’s noticeable, the difference in this band than just a year ago when I saw her in Atlanta. This was just a remarkable show the other night, better than in recent years.
The Buick 6 lineup is otherwise the same: guitarist and keyboard player Chet Lyster, bassist David Sutton, drummer Butch Norton, guitarist Eric Schermerhorn.
Anders
June 1st, 2009
1:40 pm
flange1 – Billy Beane values outs more than he values his children and you suggest frenchy in a trade to him? That’s like offering kryptonite to Supeman.
Jeff R
June 1st, 2009
1:42 pm
FaninFaytown… You make a good point about Kawakami’s trade value, but where does it put the rotation minus Vasquez?
We have Lowe, Jurrjens, Kawakami, Glavine (?), Medlen or Hanson (?)
Rookies Medlen and Hanson are likely to have their ups and downs – rookie pitchers do.
Kawakami and Glavine? The former isn’t pitching effectively and Glavine is a big “if,” at best.
Glavine pitched poorly and was out much of last season. The season before, with the Mets, he faded at the end of the season. I’m not confident that he’ll contribute much good to the Braves.
David O'Brien
June 1st, 2009
1:45 pm
Jed, I just found this explanation of sorts on the Pettibone departure, from Lucinda’s fan website:
http://www.lucindawilliams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1310
Anders
June 1st, 2009
1:45 pm
Glavine pitched poorly and was out much of last season. The season before, with the Mets, he faded at the end of the season. (JeffR)
Yeah, kind of like the economy “faded” over the last 9 months. Kind if like that.