5:34 pm May 27, 2009, by David O'Brien
May 28th, 20094:03 pm
coach, Would you trade yunel for andrus?
Excellent question! Apparently he would. And it’s also a coin flip on who he’d rather have: Hanson or Feliz. They’re both the same, right?
Coach (Moon Pie, anyone?)
And Shaun can’t read. I never said that Feliz was or wasn’t better or more highly regarded than Tommy Hanson.
I said: Neftali Feliz is to the Rangers as Tommy Hanson is to the Braves. He is their best pitching prospect. As Tommy Hanson is the Braves best pitching prospect.
As for Andrus, I’ll guarantee that he wins a gold glove in the future. Yunel Escobar has a cannon arm and great range but he isn’t on the same level as Andrus when it comes to the glove work.
May 28th, 20094:04 pm
The one thing about Schafer and Frenchy is that they are great defensive players for the Braves. So while they are hurting the team on the offensive side, at least their defense has been pretty darn good. I love watching Frenchy’s cannon in right.
May 28th, 20094:05 pm
The biggest difference in Elvis Andrus and Yunel Escobar is age. Yunel is relatively young for a major league shortstop, and should have a pretty good career. Andrus is CRAZY young for a major league shortstop, and by the time he reaches Yunel’s age might develop into the best all-around shortstop in the game. While much of his career has yet to be written, the “upside” for him is Hall-of-Famer, while I think any chance of that kind of upside for Yunel has passed him by this age.
May 28th, 20094:06 pm
Never started a rally? Are you kidding me? How do you think he got to be the Official Rally Turtle of the Atlanta Braves?
When he made his debut on July 8, 2008, McCann hit two homers and the Braves beat the Dodgers 9-3, thank you very much!
Yunel .293 4 Hr 21 rbi
andrus .284 3 hr 9rbi
I’ll take Yunel
May 28th, 20094:07 pm
IN A HEARTBEAT.
Escobar is 26 and an all-star, Andrus is 20, gold glove caliber and leads off. That is a frigging no-brainer.
May 28th, 20094:08 pm
Moon Pie, while Escobar is not a slouch, any scout will tell you that his range is minus when compared to Andrus. Andrus is a plus in range, glove work, and arm; Escobar will end up being a better third baseman than SS when Chipper’s time is up.
Too bad Elvis isn’t in our house.
Coach, who is the better player? Escobar or Andrus? I guarantee you Andrus would not be starting over Escobar if both were here. That’s the relevant question.
Feliz was the only player in the deal that could be useful to the Braves for the next few years. But he was far from a player they really needed to keep.
May 28th, 20094:09 pm
RC, well said. Shaun, your an idiot. But not as big an idiot as me
I think they are similar players
May 28th, 20094:10 pm
Frency does have a great arm, but I would say his defense is far from “great”. While he has decent speed, he gets terrible breaks on balls sometimes, and has one of the worst “Range Factors” in the game for a right fielder.
Coach, when he becomes a hall of famer you can come on here and say “told me so”
“Gold Glove Caliber”……….Coach YOU ARE kidding, right? The Gold Glove is a popularity contest.
What I meant to say was “too bad Elvis left the building.”
Steve from OH
May 28th, 20094:11 pm
Since when to Gold Gloves have anything to do with defensive ability?
and you would have traded Mccann for saltamachia because he is a young future hall of famer too
Elvis Andrus performing a miracle:
May 28th, 20094:12 pm
Never started a rally? Are you kidding me? How do you think he got to be the Official Rally Turtle of the Atlanta Braves? When he made his debut on July 8, 2008, McCann hit two homers and the Braves beat the Dodgers 9-3, thank you very much! (MCFANN)
Goodie, now you’ve given me a date. 127-126 the last three years without the rally turtle. 51-66 with the rally turtle. The rally turtle has gots to go.
May 28th, 20094:13 pm
Coach, I’m glad you are not the braves GM….I’m just glad you are the GM after the fact so that you can say how everyone did it wrong
May 28th, 20094:14 pm
RC – that’s why I qualified with “on this team”. All our outfielders have no range and are very slow. So for this team that is why Frenchy is a very good defender with one of the best arms in baseball. I agree that he doesn’t have great range. He does make up for some of that with his arm and the threat of his arm.
May 28th, 20094:15 pm
coach, I’ve seen every starting shortstop in the major leagues make a play just like that
Oh brother. You don’t really believe a keyboard turtle has any real effect on the Braves’ record, do you? Sheesh!
Get over it, dude. Rally McTurtle is going nowhere.
May 28th, 20094:16 pm
McFann–give him sample size!
May 28th, 20094:17 pm
You also got to look at McCann’s stats in the same period. W-L record means nothing without proper context.
If you don’t expect him to believe it, why do you keep doing it? Do you think it’s cool? I don’t. I think you need a better gimmick. You’re young. Come up with something fresh and edgy.
Sure tim, that’s why you’re trying to talk me down, right?
Got any more lies for me.
I'm so Glav (I'm Glav I'm Glav I'm Glav)
May 28th, 20094:18 pm
National league hitters are salivating at the thought of getting to face Tom Glavine. He throws softer than 65 year old batting practice tossers. He’ll make Mike Hampton look like Don Drysdale. Glavine will make Moyer of the Phillies look like Steve Carlton. He’ll make his pitching coach hurl and his manager have indigestion. He’ll set land speed records for slowest fastball ever. Heck why don’t the Braves just get an 11 year old girl softball underhanded pitcher? She’ll be able to easily outdo Glavine on the radar gun. Glavine’s pitches will be so slow that the home plate umpire will call a timeout while it’s still in the air, get some water, and then call time-in before it gets to McCann. His pitches will be so slow, the game will take 6 hours to play. And that’s if he lasts only 5 innings. You’ll need a Cray computer to calculate his ERA it will be so astronomical. He’ll be so off the strikeout, Beijing residents will catch his pitches. He’ll be so bad that Cy Young will be spinning in his grave. And the spins will be faster than Tom’s fastball. Don Sutton will want to come out of retirement since he can throw harder than Tom. Glavine will be so bad that people will claim he’s using performance detracting drugs and the commissioner will have to investigate. Bobby Cox will ask if he can use a designated pitcher for Glavine when Glavine pitches.
Do I need to explain this further?
Shaun, I agree with your point that Yunel would be starting over Andrus if both were on the Braves right now (unless we assume Yunel would still be hurt like he has for a few days now). However, I think the point Coach was trying to make is that if we still had Andrus, the team would be back in an Renteria/Escobar situation. Through the course of this season Andrus would likely have proven his ability to the Braves to handle SS at the major league level, leaving the team open to shopping Escobar to address other issues (like they did with Renteria and Escobar 2 years ago). Actually, my guess would be that Escobar would have been traded this offseason for Jake Peavy, and Peavy might have not put the brakes on the deal if a player like Andrus was ready to step in defensively.
For me there are 2 questions here: Which would I want this year? Escobar. Which would I want for the next 3-5 years? Andrus, and it’s not really that close.
May 28th, 20094:20 pm
Chop Chop… Nice post at 3:00 p.m.
Shaun, as I recall, you were one of the leading cheer leaders for the Super Tex deal. As I recall, you ventured that that deal was a good bet to put the Bravos in the post season. Some of us called you on that opinion then. Facts and time have proved us right.
The significance of this debate is “Would it be wise for Wren to make a similar deal this season?”
Not as it stands. Granted, the season is only forty-odd games old, but the Braves aren’t showing that their a post-season caliber team. That may change, and with it, my assessment. But not now.
The Super Tex deal was lame because it didn’t produce what you and others at the time said it would produce: a post-season for the Bravos. Pitching was the problem, and it wasn’t successfully addressed.
Currently, the Bravos have a need for a power bat, no doubt. But the team must be concerned about the 4/5 spots in the rotation, the middle inning relief and set up (Moylan, when he’s performing in that role).
A bevvy of good prospects for a power bat, as the team is now performing, won’t make the Braves a post-season contender.
If you don’t see plays like that every week than you must not watch a lot of baseball
Top signing priority for Mr. Wren next off season should be the hitting coach of Texas Rangers. Hand him a blank check. Terry Pendleton had an outstanding career but hasn’t produced as a hitting coach.
Didn’t see the “on this team” qualifier. Yeah, I agree that he’s easily the 2nd best defender in the Braves OF. And his arm is quite a weapon, both at throwing out runners and a deterrent(sp?).
May 28th, 20094:21 pm
Andrus would still be blocked by Escobar for at least a couple of years, no matter what he could turn in to. He’s not likely to be better than Escobar for at least a couple of years. Therefore I don’t see that it was a mistake to trade him for a huge impact bat when the team was 4.5 back and had as much talent as all the teams ahead of them.
Oh brother. You don’t really believe a keyboard turtle has any real effect on the Braves’ record, do you? Sheesh! Get over it, dude. Rally McTurtle is going nowhere. (MCFANN)
GREAT! I love ironically named icons that bring bad luck and losses! Oh well, I guess the four legged paradox ain’t going anywhere. Good news for someone’s own self-promotion, but terrible news for the team’s record
May 28th, 20094:22 pm
I wish we could have the Rangers GM. We would have one win in the last 41 years
May 28th, 20094:24 pm
That’s what I am saying Shaun. No risk no reward. It just didn’t work out that time
RC – That’s why I don’t really see who the Braves could really put in RF. The Braves are almost stuck with the two guys they have in CF and RF. Even with Infante, he wasn’t really an option or they would have played him there at least once this season.
Tony Armas is going to try and blow a 9-0 lead for Glavine. He apparently isn’t a very good pitcher. Almost gave up 3 straight homers, and now at least 5 runs.
People who brush off trading Andrus because we had Escobar established at SS are kidding themselves. I don’t like to look back on the Tex deal since it’s so awful but the Braves would have moved Johnson to LF or traded him to make room at 2B for either Andrus or Escobar, whoever wasn’t playing SS. Saltalamacchia was the one who wasn’t going to play for the Braves.
Yeah, Escobar’s stats are better. But Andrus is 20. Let’s see what Andrus is doing in five years.
He’s already probably a better fielder with more speed. And the bat is not half as bad as people though- in fact, it’s quite impressive for a 20 year old.
Were the Rally Turtle’s stats park adjusted?
May 28th, 20094:25 pm
Coach, When was Escobar an All-Star?
May 28th, 20094:26 pm
That one hit home!
McFann, care to elaborate?
Forget Dunn! No way Wren trades guys that have a chance to hurt us in the future…Nats are in the same division, so we’ll be seeing a lot of them for years to come. Plus, his defense was what drove Wren away to begin with. GA is a bad OF too, but he cost $7.5M less than Dunn. I wouldn’t brush Holliday off as our nexy OF…the A’s MIGHT not be asking for a ton, and might really covet one guy in our system, maybe Hernandez and throw-ins like Redmond and Morton. Hawpe might be more realistic.
My first statement was that it wasn’t a good trade but it made sense at the time and I think that you want to deal from a position of strength which we did
May 28th, 20094:27 pm
RC id still pick escobar for the next 3-5 years. if i was going to pick one for 10 years, then id go with andrus.
its not that andrus isnt a good player. he really is.
Holliday ain’t “nexy”. Ya’ll know I meant next.
The Devil Wears Prado
Shaun, I disagree that the Braves had as much talent as the teams they were chasing when they made the Teixeira deal. We had a nice lineup and a decent bullpen, but our rotation was a disaster after Smoltz and Hudson. Buddy Carlyle was our #3 starter in ‘07, followed by a motley crew consisting of Chuck James, Lance Cormier, Anthony Lerew, Mark Redman, Kyle Davies and Jo-Jo Reyes. While we undoubtedly had a hole at first base that Teixeira was able to fill, we still had an offense that was one of the best in the NL. The real failing of that deal was not what we gave up (and it was a ton), but that it didn’t address our biggest need that season.
Escobar plays a solid 3B. Rather than sign the oft-injured Chipper to a three year deal, had the Bravos kept Andrus, they could have swung Escobar to 3B and given Andrus the regular SS gig. THt would have worked out nicely.
May 28th, 20094:28 pm
Jeff R, the Braves could have made the post-season with a few breaks in 2007 and 2008 (without injuries and with a little luck). Unfortunately no one had a time machine to know whether or not the Braves would make the post-season those years. If so, I would have wanted the Braves to trade every expendable veteran and hold on to any young player for a run in 2009. But the Braves were talented enough to make a playoff run at the deadline in ‘07 and at the beginning of ‘08. Therefore they did what they should have done–gave up some expendable parts to go for it those years. Notice they didn’t give up Schafer or Hanson or some others. They gave up what was expendable because unfortunately they couldn’t know what would happen towards the end of ‘07 and in ‘08. But I suppose many of you have a crystal ball that told you the Braves wouldn’t make the post-season in those years. If so, I can’t argue any more. Sorry.
May 28th, 20094:29 pm
Andrus over Chipper? The guy won a batting title and hit .364 or something crazy like that.
May 28th, 20094:30 pm
Willy Wally GREAT! I love ironically named icons that bring bad luck and losses!
But seriously–Why are you so freaked out about this? No such thing as bad luck, dude. If Rally McTurtle wouldn’t have ever showed up, the Braves would have the same record.
It’s not for self-promotion, man. It’s just another Blog character…Braves haven’t been to hot with a lot of us on here. Maybe we should all leave, too?
PS–Rally’s rather sensitive. You hurt his feelings.
Is there really a point in continuing to discuss the Tex trade?
It’s over and done with.
Some folks liked it then, some didn’t.
Some folks like it now, some don’t.
It’s done and over with, let’s move on.
Bay Area Steve
May 28th, 20094:31 pm
thanks for the tip. I’ll check it out next time I get to SF.
been following your comments, and others’ reactions, about adding pitching instead of hitting. I actually think your position makes sense, until I think of the money required.
It would seem a high-level pitcher (no worse than Vazquez) would be making significant money, or would require an at-least-Tex-level type trade. Our offense can be upgraded for far less. I even think we could stay in house and improve this offense, without over-compromising the defense.
May 28th, 20094:32 pm
Neither Escobar’s or Andrus’ bat would play at 3rd. One of them would replace Kelly at 2nd with being traded. The Braves could have found a place for him.
flange1, some are also apathetic. Like me. Give it a rest, folks.
May 28th, 20094:33 pm
The Devil Wears Prado, lots of teams have made the playoffs with pitching as good or worse than what the Braves had in ‘07. The idea in baseball is to outscore the other team–whether that is by building a really good offense and decent pitching staff or by building a decent offense and a really good pitching staff. Increasing your run output does just as good as improving your run prevention as long as it’s the same amount both ways. Tex increased the run output more than any pitcher could have improved run prevention when they made the trade. A pitcher with that impact wasn’t available. Sorry to bust your bubbles.
Shaun, we didn’t have a crystal ball. We made this call at the time of the trade. Surely you remember? And if my memory serves, you acknowledged that the Braves needed pitching but there wasn’t a quaility pitcher available for trade. Hence, you argued that adding Super Tex was a worthwhile alternative.
It wasn’t. And, as I said, some of us argued the point then, not in hindsight.
May 28th, 20094:34 pm
Hey DOB I just read on MLBTRADERUMORS that apparently the Braves are interested on bringing back Mark DeRosa to the team. Is there any truth behind that?
“The Braves are interested in bringing Mark DeRosa back to Atlanta. He came up with them and was non-tendered in ‘04 after tearing his ACL. But to deal young arms, the Braves would want an impact bat. Stark says they’re “mostly listening” rather than shopping Jeff Francoeur. His trade value is difficult to gauge”.
Gregor Blanco batting .394 last 9 games for the Gwinnett Braves.
Chipper is more manly than Andrus.
But I’m not all that impressed with Chipper’s manliness.
He needs to: 1) Lose the fuzz on his chin, 2) Get a nice crewcut, and most of all 3)Stop calling himself “Chipper”. Maybe “Butch” or “Spike” will do.
Maybe Wren should trade McCann/Frenchy/Prado to Boston for Lester/Ellsbury/Lugo? Hey, I’d do it in a heartbeat!
May 28th, 20094:35 pm
Look you can attack me, you can attack my dog but nobody attacks McFann. She’s an icon.
This Tex trade talk is NOT double-pits-to-chesty.
Sorry, can’t help myself.
Where McCarver at? Where’s the Goo?
May 28th, 20094:36 pm
Steve from OH, Il Cattivo–
I’m figuring out BMac’s stats since McTurtle made his debut, just in case.
Oh…well, my Mom’s family is from Minnesota, and most of them still live up there. They all call it “pop”. We’ve talked about it before–how up north everybody says “pop”…I don’t know–to make a long story short, it just struck me funny.
Under the new mark-to-market accounting rules, the trade value of Jeff Francoeur is virtually nothing.
The Braves can apply for Federal bailout funds to replace him.
David O- Have you heard of the rumor that Edmonds has signed with the Braves for one year $600,000?
May 28th, 20094:37 pm
Hey MFin, we heard you the first two times you’ve said it. If no one’s responded by now, it probably means no one cares. Like me. I don’t.
May 28th, 20094:38 pm
Has the Wurlitzer been abolished? I suppose there is little reason for it to continue.
I need more blog catch phrases.
jerkish nutbag, numbletard
Your And Idiot
I say we acquire DeRosa ASAP, so if Chipper is hurt he can play third, if not, he can play the OF or 2B. Then if we are still hurting in a few weeks go after another bat.
Shaun, your theory about winning doesn’t wash. Contending teams are typically teams with solid defenses and pitching; the hitting is timely.
Cliche though it may be, good pitching beats good hitting almost ever time.
Plus, you put a lot of pressure on a team’s offense. I’d rather have a pitching staff and defense that holds the opposition 3 1/2, 4 runs a game, then one where the hitters have to put a lot of runs on the board every night to win. THAt formula doesn’t work in most instances, certainly not consistently.
BASteve, is it your intention to invoke the spirits of every single nutbag poster who has ever been here, LOL? Perhaps Goo Boy and Marietta whats-his-name eloped, and we’re shed of them. Speak of them no more, lest they return.
May 28th, 20094:39 pm
Thanks, CB! You’ve got me blushing…
Don’t know that I deserved that one…
Even though I think that Andrus will be better than Escobar within a couple of years, I agree that the trade was not a mistake at the time it was made. It legitimately gave this team 2 shots at the playoffs, and it just didn’t work out. A couple of breaks here and there and the trade looks like genius…it’s just this time Scherholtz wasn’t on the winning side.
May 28th, 20094:40 pm
But he updates it, Steve. That’s what makes him a GENIUS.
A MFer now, in 2009.
You could also trade McCann/Prado/Jurrjens/Lowe to the Phillies for Victorino/Happ/Werth. I really like Victorino a ton and think Werth would solve a lot of the OF power numbers. I like that idea. Any takers?
Actually I’ve said it 5 times. But he is 4 for 5 today and keeps going up. Should be on a plane to play with the Braves tomorrow. Not sure why you wouldn’t care if you are a Braves fan and want to win?
The reason I bring it up is because the blog is about trading to get a bat. People want to trade our best outfielder for a bat which I disagree with. I think we should trade from a position of strength being our starting pitching but only for a bat for 3+ years and not a rent a bat. Otherwise try to stay close until Hudson comes back. Then make our move. IMO
Shaun, if there was no frontline pitcher available for the Braves to acquire (I can’t recall, but I’ll take your word for it), they should have just held on to their prospects. The offense was already one of the league’s best, so adding Teixeira, while he certainly made the lineup better, was not so much of a need that it was worth the heavy price we paid for him. The odds of making the postseason when three spots in the rotation consistently struggled just to keep the team in the game was a dicey proposition to say the least, no matter how good the lineup was.
BREAKING NEWS: BRAVES send Francoeur, Medlen, & Reyes to the Rockies for Brad Hawpe.
Mel Gibson is making a new film called “The passions of the Wren”.
It’s about a nerd who thinks he’s real smart, but his peers just mock him and steal his lunch. It’s a tragedy.
May 28th, 20094:41 pm
Uuuumm…next question, please.
I really like Victorino a ton
May 28th, 20094:42 pm
Thank you Steve from OH. I was about to say the same thing.
sorry. I think my subconscious is starting to believe that having those guys back might be an upgrade. I’ll stop.
Mcfann, no such thing as bad luck? What are you Shaun now?
And changing his name from Rally Turtle to Rally McTurtle, and somehow unofficially designating him The Official Rally Turtle of the Braves is definitely the kind of self-promotional thing Francoeur would do, but never McCann.
May 28th, 20094:43 pm
Off topic, anyone interested in the National Spelling Bee? Finals are on ESPN at 8 today.
Reminds me of the documentary that lost Oscar to “Bowling for Columbine” – Spellbound. Spellbound is a documentary but just may be the best thriller I have ever seen. Anyone who loves watching movies has to see this masterpiece.
Blaine Boyer is a tub of goo...
We are always watching and waiting for the next underperforming Brave who needs to be tarred and gooed.
May 28th, 20094:44 pm
McFann: I’m just about ready to report Willy-Wally to PETA for emotional abuse of a turtle.
WillyWally – let’s see your idea of “edgy”
Are you serious Nate?
Keep repeating this often enough and it WILL come true
Braves get Pujols and Carpenter for Jo Jo/Frenchy/Norton!
May 28th, 20094:45 pm
BASteve, then we got to get your subconscious some Blue Label, LOL. No more cheap stuff.
The Devil wears Prado was the first one singing the Texeira song? just kidding. I thought it energized the Braves fan. I think I am the only one that goes to games anymore….sniff…sniff. By the way the Braves are 5 and 0 when I go….The Braves need to just sign me…not as a player mind you….but as a kind of rally turtle
McFann, Victorino is more of an impact player than McCann simply because of speed and defense, no doubt about it. You add Victorino/Werth/Happ and there you have a combo of speed,power,great young left handed pitcher. Come on, you not on board?
Any Mute Math fans on here? Saw this interview today and thought it was interesting. Looks like the record is finally going to be released. Here’s the link to the interview.
Anyone going to the Jonny Lang/Buddy Guy show at Chastain Park in June? I am dying to go, but already have tickets to the Braves-Yankees game that night. Only the Braves could keep me from catching that guitar summit.
Waterboarding is torture
May 28th, 20094:46 pm
Dear Frank Wren: DO NOT trade any prospects for rentals. We are not going to contend this year. I’d say an 80 win season is plausible but not more than that. Save all of our good young players and make a run in a few years when we have Freeman, Heyward, Gorkys, McCann, Cody J., Chipper, Hanson, Lowe, Jurrjens, etc.
You beat me to it at 4:37!
Did you know?
David O’Brien was on the short list for pulitzer prize consideration due to the fact that THIS BLOG broke the scandal involving Blaine Boyer and a huge pile of goo.
May 28th, 20094:47 pm
How is Victorino more of an impact player than McCann?
May 28th, 20094:48 pm
Nate, lay off the meth…please! You obviously don’t know a thing about baseball and value of players, like an AllStar catcher that makes us better. You don’t trade him or JJ…EVER!
Shaun, your theory about winning doesn’t wash. Contending teams are typically teams with solid defenses and pitching; the hitting is timely.
Not necessarily true.
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