Musings from Mets camp, JJ vs. Johan on the mound

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McFann :Ô:

March 23rd, 2009
6:57 pm

Dogsbrekky

$500 a week?? Dang…Well, that bird food cann get pricey, especially if you’re feeding that many.

BlawgDawg

Tsk tsk tsk! How could you do such a thing? ;)

Doc Holiday

March 23rd, 2009
6:58 pm

Chop Chop,

IMPACT entered the equation the moment we started having a conversation. If you mention Guys like Sojo, Nelson, Brosious, then it looks like you are not being realistic. Are you putting them in the same league as Schillings? I hope not. Have any of them been WS MVP?

Lew

March 23rd, 2009
6:58 pm

DOB-Also in Smoltz’s favor is that. in addition to the disparity in saves vs. Schilling, Smoltz also has a Cy Young and Fireman of the Year Award-Schilling does not on either front. Smoltz also (if I remember correctly) owns the NL record for saves in a season and the only other pitcher in ML history with comparable saves/wins is Eckersley-already inducted. Smoltz is in, Schilling not, though Schilling’s Three WS rings don’t hurt his chances.

N8

March 23rd, 2009
7:01 pm

DOB, here is a quote from Carroll’s piece about the Braves spring trainging questions remaining.

“Schafer has been a hot hitter but the Braves might not want his arbitration clock ticking this early, making him a potential “Super 2” and eligible for arbitration a year early.”

Really? I thought Wren said that the Braves want to compete this year? Isn’t his JOB to put the BEST guy for the job on the field?

Not saying that in the end Anderson won’t be the best guy for the job. Or that young Jordan could use a month or so at AAA.

But if in their minds Schafer is clearly the better player that gives them the best shot at winning THIS YEAR, how are they supposed to sell the fans that they are trying to win and not pinch future pennies?

Not trying to go all “H8″ on anybody. But I don’t think the Ted Turner owned Braves were EVER concerned about when Chipper’s “clock” started, were they?

PWHjort

March 23rd, 2009
7:02 pm

Lew, you mentioned rather trivial things that largely have nothing to do with weather or not the player is better. Schilling had a better season in 2001 than Smoltz did in 1996. Yet Smoltz has a Cy Young and Schilling doesn’t. The intelligent voters see that and don’t hold it against Smoltz. Schilling was never in the closer role for an extended period of time so it doesn’t make sense to take away from him just because he doesn’t have a similar number of saves.

PWHjort

March 23rd, 2009
7:03 pm

I meant won’t hold it against Schilling, not Smoltz.

N8

March 23rd, 2009
7:05 pm

I should point out that I realize that Carroll used the word “might” in here sentence, and this isn’t a direct quote of Wren’s thought process.

Also I should note that in no way am I saying Schafer is gonna be the next Chipper. But the Braves couldn’t WAIT to get Chipper in the lineup (even had him penciled in to play LF – replacing Gant), and start his clock.

Nor were they concerned about Andruw’s clock starting at age 19. Why? Because they were gonna help the team.

I sure hope that if Schafer can help the team in April, that the FUTURE budget of the Braves doesn’t cause them to keep that clock on “snooze”.

Ronald Millsaps

March 23rd, 2009
7:08 pm

DON’T let go of Josh Anderson, please!!!!! Here’s a guy who stepped up and played VERY well last season, in the minors AND in the majors, and if we were to release him now, I’d seriously question the logic.

Here’s a guy who, as reported, is out of options. We either can play him, trade him, or release him, and it’d better be the first option because this guy stepped up and showed a rarified ability to steal bases, unmatched even by Rafael Furcal, who was highly talented but who didn’t always have the on-base percentage necessary and who perhaps lacked the necessary work ethic.

Don’t trade anyone! As for a backup at third, well, we have Omar Infante, the most versatile bench player in the game and a terrific hitter, not to mention Martin Prado, who can back up there.

I definitely wouldn’t trade Jorge Campillo. Here’s a guy who pitched some of the best games I’ve ever seen last season and who has the mound presence that Kyle Davies, Chuck James, and several others have lacked. Cutting ties with this man would be foolish.

This team has the talent to win the World Series this season. I wouldn’t disrupt team chemistry by making many, if any, moves, and I definitely–again–would cut ties with Anderson or Campillo. Anderson’s work to develop his God-given talent is one of the main reasons I’m optimistic about this season, and I think we’ll look back on not acquiring Rafael Furcal as a good thing.

There has been a lot of baseball played over the last four weeks, perhaps too much. Perhaps baseball needs to cut back a little bit and just let teams spend more time in spring training playing intrasquad games and using more time to work on specific needs, as opposed to postponing those efforts to compete.

Perhaps this team should try to see if Brandon Jones could play infield eventually. Perhaps this team also should trade Dave Ross, make Clint Sammons the backup, and use the resulting revenue difference to sweeten the offer to Will Ohman, who very well might be needed more than ever before. Overall, there are a lot of fine, fine players at all positions on this team. I’d be prayerful before making any trades. I expect this team to return to mid-90s form this season or at least very close to it.

Epinephrine

March 23rd, 2009
7:14 pm

Wayne in Utah, couldn’t disagree more. I’d much rather have Moylan and Soriano, who can just about guarantee a closed door, once every three or four nights, than 3 Manny Acostas who will give you a heart attack three nights in a row. Carry the extra pitcher I say.

Lew

March 23rd, 2009
7:14 pm

PWHjort-Doesn’t make a bit of difference, IMO, when the votes are tallied. Like I said earlier, too-Many don’t place much credence in win totals anymore either, but the voters DO. Same with having a CY. They won’t compare seasons or that Schilling’s record came in second though he had a better comparative year than when John won his. They will see that Smoltz has the Cy and Schilling doesn’t.

Lew

March 23rd, 2009
7:16 pm

Besides-Smoltz is pitching this year and Schilling retired. They won’t go into the running for induction the same year so there will likely NOT be any comparison.

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
7:19 pm

Epinephrine

Sorry to disagree, but if the guy can’t go two days in a row he potentially hurts your team (by carrying an extra pitcher, you deplete your bench). Like many are saying (which I strongly disagree with) with Schafer, if he needs more time, give him more time.

I don’t see how it can be any different with our relievers. I would rather have them at full strength in May that part-time in April.

PWHjort

March 23rd, 2009
7:19 pm

Lew, the voters are pretty smart and statistically advanced. They actually put less stock into wins than you think. And they won’t only look at Cy Youngs.

Lew

March 23rd, 2009
7:19 pm

Just noticed the flaw in my chain of assumptions-If Schilling is not elected first ballot, he and Smoltz will be on the ballot together. Nonetheless, the rest holds true. You’ve got to think of how the voters usually vote and they’re not always totally rational.

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
7:21 pm

Schilling is not hall of fame caliber. If Murph is not good enough, I can’t see where Schilling will fill the bill.

18 Wheels of Love

March 23rd, 2009
7:21 pm

N8, agree with your comments on arb clocks starting. You field the best team and if you consider Schafer the future and Josh just a temporary seat warmer, you play Schafer and not worry about this clock. If you deem Schafer the guy and he is ready to play now, you DFA or trade Josh. I realize their is a budgetary side of things things that must be considered but the ultimate and urgent goal is to field a winner now, because we certainly are NOT in a rebuilding mode.

nolie

March 23rd, 2009
7:21 pm

because we know what happens when he turns it around. DOC

what happens is a 312/398/512/910 hitter. It isn’t as good as lefty but its better than most RHed hitters in the bigs so I’m wondering why the tone of that post? unless I’m misreading it?

Chop Chop

March 23rd, 2009
7:22 pm

Scott Brosius was the 1998 World Series MVP, Doc.

David Eckstein is a potential Hall of Famer. Two rings and a World Series MVP. Scrappilicious, baby.

KC

March 23rd, 2009
7:27 pm

“The Braves Have Added More Than You Think”

BravesBlast.com Blog

David O'Brien

March 23rd, 2009
7:32 pm

Saw “I Love You, Man” today. Very funny movie.

David O'Brien

March 23rd, 2009
7:38 pm

CB: You want my opinion over giving a roster spot to Brandon Jones over Greg Norton? I think that’s not going to happen, and shouldn’t happen. Greg Norton has been one of the best pinch-hitters in baseball for the past several years. You need a proven pinch-hitter like that on your bench. You don’t play rookies once every week or so and assume they can get a pinch-hit when you stick them into a game in a crucial situation, sometimes after having no at-bats in the previous two or three games (or more).

David O'Brien

March 23rd, 2009
7:41 pm

Doc Holliday, I have no idea what you mean by treat your person with respect. But I just saw your question about World Series rings, and I think a few people have answered since then, so i don’t have to do the research. Thanks, folks.

mets09WSchamps

March 23rd, 2009
7:45 pm

God your Braves are going to suck this year. As good of a spring as the Braves may have had, most of those contributing will be back in the minors. You’ll be looking up at the Phillies and Mets, hell maybe even the Marlins for YEARS to come!! HAHAHAHAHAHA

Doc Holiday

March 23rd, 2009
7:45 pm

Chop Chop

are those 2 guys your best arguments?

David O'Brien

March 23rd, 2009
7:48 pm

Could you name 3 players (preferably pitchers or non utility players since we are talking pitchers here) with 3 or more WS rings that are not currently or that will be in the HOF? – Doc Holliday

Off the top of my head, Mike Timlin has four World Series rings — two with Toronto, two with Boston. He ain’t going to the Hall of Fame.

But I’d like to say again, I do think Schilling will probably get in. But it’s not a given. That’s all I said.

Random

March 23rd, 2009
7:49 pm

N8 (7:01 pm): “I thought Wren said that the Braves want to compete this year? Isn’t his JOB to put the BEST guy for the job on the field?

“Not saying that in the end Anderson won’t be the best guy for the job. Or that young Jordan could use a month or so at AAA.

“But if in their minds Schafer is clearly the better player that gives them the best shot at winning THIS YEAR, how are they supposed to sell the fans that they are trying to win and not pinch future pennies?”

Let’s assume for the sake of argument that Schafer is indeed clearly the better player.

What makes you think that the Braves cannot nevertheless compete this year starting the season with the lesser JAnderson? Is he that much worse? Just how much CF performance would the Braves be sacrificing by going with JAnderson rather than Schafer on Opening Day?

Wouldn’t starting the season with JAnderson give the Braves a better chance to trade him after a month or so, or even to slip him through waivers? (Tip o’ the hat to DAP.)

There are many times in life when you hold your best in reserve for maximum later effect — this may be one of them.

BravesFan InRockies

March 23rd, 2009
8:03 pm

Random

If J.Anderson plays to expectations — that is, a below-average OBP with no power — then he doesn’t enhance his trade value by playing.

Yes, I’m suggesting that the Braves try to get somebody to take him off their hands hoping that the taker doesn’t realize that he’s essentially a AAAA OF with a lot of speed, solid defensive abilities, and not much else.

Couch Tater

March 23rd, 2009
8:10 pm

DOB,

I assume you have seen Joe Posnanski’s new blog, but just in case..

http://futureofpapers.blogspot.com/

Randy S

March 23rd, 2009
8:11 pm

Doc

Don’t know if these guys have been mentioned or not.

Paul O’Neil
Mike Stanton
Devon White

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
8:13 pm

BFIR Completetly agree. Some are too darned worried about keeping a player who will probably never contribute much to a pennant contending team.

Why such a worry about losing a guy like Josh Anderson? I really don’t understand it. If we truly want to win this year, we darn sure better go with our best players. Another reason why KK would potentially be sent to AAA and give Hanson a shot with the big club.

To be perfectly honest, I don’t really think it is ALL about winning and losing. I think the finance end plays a lot bigger part than some would lead you to believe.

But then again, what do I know. I had my Tigers making it to the sweet 16!

18 Wheels of Love

March 23rd, 2009
8:13 pm

Random, did you just suggest the Braves should sandbag and not play their best CF’er? Never heard that one before. Of course Philly did it for years with Howard in AAA, but I doubt any GM thinks like that.

Random

March 23rd, 2009
8:15 pm

18 Wheels of Love (7:21 pm): “N8, agree with your comments on arb clocks starting. You field the best team and if you consider Schafer the future and Josh just a temporary seat warmer, you play Schafer and not worry about this clock.”

If Schafer IS the future, then of course you worry now about exactly how many future years’ service he will give you. Especially when it’s within your control.

And you will not needlessly start his clock if you can help it.

And that is the crux of the argument — not is JAnderson better than Schafer, but is JAnderson good enough, right here, right now, to allow the Braves to delay starting Schafer’s clock without sacrificing the season (or even putting it in significant jeopardy or doubt)?

BravesFan InRockies

March 23rd, 2009
8:18 pm

Wayne

I think the infatuation with Josh is a result of the Braves being so speed-deprived (or is the PC term speed-challenged?) since Furcal left. Now that there’s a potential burner on the lineup, a lot of fans are willing to overlook his obvious deficiencies.

BravesFan InRockies

March 23rd, 2009
8:20 pm

Also Wayne,

If you field your best team then the fans will spend their declining discretionary income to watch them paly. If you play seat-warmers instead and don’t put your best players on the field (the ML-ready ones, of course — I’m not arguing that you rush Heyward to the bigs), the fans are more likely to stay home. Particularly in a lousy economy.

RHR

March 23rd, 2009
8:21 pm

DOB – I saw I Love You, Man over the weekend….. with my mom. Really I should have known better and I’m sure it’s nothing she hasn’t heard before but PSA – don’t see it with your mom!

18 Wheels of Love

March 23rd, 2009
8:22 pm

I’m with you Random, I think you take that into consideration for sure. And that’s the thing, I think Schafer is more dynamic and would contribute more across the board than Josh, hence making Josh expendable.

Random

March 23rd, 2009
8:26 pm

BravesFan InRockies (8:03 pm): “If J.Anderson plays to expectations — that is, a below-average OBP with no power — then he doesn’t enhance his trade value by playing.”

Then the alternative I mentioned — slipping him through waivers — should be a piece of cake. (JK)

Btw, those are your expectations — are they Wren’s or Cox’?

They’re not mine, nor many others’ here.

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
8:30 pm

You make your best decisions TODAY, with the facts that you have in front of you. Then, you move forward, and you DON’T look back and second guess.

I don’t think that includes doing something chicken s_ _ _ like leaving a better player off your roster for a while, so you can salvage his arbitration clock. (like the Rays did last spring with Eva L)

BlawgDawg

March 23rd, 2009
8:37 pm

Doc You asked Chop Chop if any of those had been WS MVP’s, Chop Chop says, actually yes, Brosios was MVP of 98 WS. (Which I think would mean he IMPACTED his team that series)

Then he mentions David Eickstein, who was a starter on those teams and not a utility guy, and was MVP (again, obviously IMPACTED his team).

After being corrected, all you can say is, are those two guys your best argument? Come on my man, even though Chop Chop came with guys that meet ALL of the requirements you set forward, you still won’t admit that you were corrected. Guess your just not the kind of person to have an honest, back and forth discussion with since you can’t even admit when you were wrong. I think more than 3 players that you asked to be named have been put forward, man up and admit it.

I know I know guys, asking Doc to admit an error is like asking Curt Schilling to stop being a jerk, just ain’t gonna happen.

Random

March 23rd, 2009
8:38 pm

18 Wheels of Love (8:13 pm): “did you just suggest the Braves should sandbag and not play their best CF’er?”

No, not if they don’t immediately need him.

I would not consider that “sandbagging” — we’re not trying to establish our handicap here.

I would consider it strategically keeping a force in reserve, like many brilliant generals have done through the ages. An ace in the hole. A card up our sleeves. With an additional year of ML service being the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

IF possible – it may not be. The sacrifice in CF performance from Schafer to JAnderson may be judged to be too great to allow the Braves to open with the latter.

But in my mind, THAT is the quetion.

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
8:45 pm

Random

Your scenario is EXACTLY what I would call sandbagging. Why would you not play your best, ready for the majors, players?? To do otherwise would be sending the wrong message to your fans.

Now, that doesn’t mean that the Braves WON’T pick Anderson over Schafer, and if they do, I will be pulling for Anderson to hit, run and field to the best of his ability.

It’s just from my point of view, it seems that Schafer is the easy choice. (yes, I have heard the story too many times about getting Schafer more seasoning, so please, no need to repeat that point, valid or not)

Random

March 23rd, 2009
8:47 pm

DAP (4:38 pm) — I expect Nady to tank in 2009 (as well as Abreu).

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
8:48 pm

DOB

OK, it’s your team. Spring training is over today. Who do you start in CF tomorrow?

Who are your first 4 starters tomorrow?

As for me, it would be Scafer, Lowe, Jurrjens, Vazquez, and Hanson. But then again, what do I know.

JCG

March 23rd, 2009
8:53 pm

Cowherd made a good point this morning about Schilling. He has pissed off a few members of the media in the past and some of them do have a hall of fame vote.

BravesFan InRockies

March 23rd, 2009
8:55 pm

Random

Yes, those are exactly my expectations, based on six years of minor league performance rather than a couple of cups of coffee in the majors (most of the sips taking place in September, where face it, the rosters are expanded and hitters can face pitchers who weren’t good enough to make the 25-man during the main part of the season).

Wren and Cox may hope for more but are they likely to get it?

BravesFan InRockies

March 23rd, 2009
8:56 pm

Also, I don’t think the Braves can afford to sandbag, nor should they, given their failure to make the postseason three straight years. The games count just as much in April as they do in September.

Lew

March 23rd, 2009
9:00 pm

It still amazes me that so many here fail to realize that Schafer has all of 280 AB at AA. The Dude is having a great Spring. So what? Spring Training means nothing (haven’t we heard THAT one enough recently?). You have absolutely NO idea how he might perform in the show. None. Zero. etc. etc.. Arguably, he hasn’t even faced that high a caliber of pitching yet this spring, given that many of the best have been at the WBC a good bit of the time.

Yet Anderson, in almost as many ML AB’s as Schafer has at AA. (about 75 less or so), has hit .315 with an OBP of .363 and stolen 11 of 13 bases. Now granted this is not the hugest of sample sizes, but it has shown him to be successful when called up to the majors. His defense is close enough to Schafer’s that it shouldn’t even be a concern.

Given that starting Schafer later in the year could conceivably save the Braves, a cash strapped team for years, the equivalent of millions of dollars, leaving Schafer a mere half hour away if needed, I fail to see what harm could possibly accrue by letting Josh Anderson start the year in center and Schafer at Gwinnett.

All of this talk about not starting the best possible player is a load of manure. At this point you don’t know that Jordan IS the better player yet. He projects to be and we certainly hope he lives up to expectations, but 280 AA AB;s and a good spring is not proof. Just because we all think he will be our future is no reason to throw him to the wolves when other alternatives exist to be tried. Let him grow up first.

David O'Brien

March 23rd, 2009
9:01 pm

RHR — ouch, bad call on seeing I Love You, Mam, with the female parental unit. That’s even worse than my faux pas a couple years ago, when I saw Charlie Wilson’s War with my mom while I was at their house in Wilson, N.C., for Christmas (think of the opening scene, hot tub, etc)

But I Love You, Man, had a few conversations that would have been quite uncomfortable for viewing with mom. Quite.

David O'Brien

March 23rd, 2009
9:02 pm

Ahh … time for 24.

Tomas

March 23rd, 2009
9:03 pm

The thing with Schilling is that he exceled in post season, and has 3 world series rings. He was 1993 NLCS mvp, and won a WS with the Phillies, he was the WS mvp in 2001 with Arizona, in 2004 he had the bloody suck and ended the 86 year old draught after being 3-0 against the Yankees in the ALCS, and also won in 2007 his last season in the big leagues.

But if you believe Andre Dawson is a first ballot hall of famer, then Schilling should be a first ballot HOF too. I understand that you’re comparing John Smoltz, Greg Maddux, and Tom Glavine to Schilling, and obviously Smoltz, Glavine, and Maddux are HOF.

And if Schilling is a first ballot HOF, then Jamie Moyer would be a first ballot HOF.

The thing with Schilling is that he is an impact player and Moyer isn’t.

Take Pedro Martinez for example, if he were to retire right now, he is a first ballot HOF isn’t he?

Random

March 23rd, 2009
9:04 pm

Bubdylan

March 23rd, 2009
9:05 pm

lol @ “female parental unit.” Haven’t heard that one.

f.n.hale

March 23rd, 2009
9:06 pm

I’m with Random on this Schaefer/Josh Anderson scenario. My guess is Schaefer turns out to be the better player but IMO Josh has shown he isn’t overmatched at this level and what would it hurt to get a look at what he can do on an every day basis for a month or two. I don’t have stats to back it up but it seems like he’s gotten better the last couple of weeks as the competition heated up. Maybe the Braves don’t really know what he is yet and need to find out. If he doesn’t stink, it probably hasn’t cost them much to see and if he does they bring Schaefer up.

winterville

March 23rd, 2009
9:10 pm

Schilling never won a WS with the Phils did he?

CharlieAlphaBravo

March 23rd, 2009
9:13 pm

I unwittingly got trapped into watching Unfaithful with my parents and girlfriend… That’s the first and only time I’ve ever wanted Diane Lane to put her clothes back on.

SoWeGa Fanatic

March 23rd, 2009
9:14 pm

In 1996, Schilling in 26 starts had a 3.19 era, surrendered only 149 hits in 183 IP with 50 BB & 182 K’s. He was smoking! His record? 9-10!!! Unbelievable. Of course, the Phils only won 67 games that year. Just saying.

diamondlady01

March 23rd, 2009
9:18 pm

McFann-Love your choice of music lyrics earlier today!

J.D.

March 23rd, 2009
9:19 pm

DOB, speaking about faux pas in movie watching, I was with my grandparents last year at their house when they suggested we go to the movies. I was all for it, and my grandma suggests we go see Forgetting Sarah Marshall. Being 20, I am a fan of Judd Apatow and knew what this movie would entail. I tried to talk to her about what would probably be in it and she said it got good reviews and heard good things about it. So, off we go to the movies. Nevertheless, the first scene when he dances without his towel on clinched the prize for most awkward moment in my life. I enjoy telling this story to all my family, and it gets a ride out of everyone that hears it.

N8

March 23rd, 2009
9:21 pm

Lew, your 9:00 point is a good one. NOBODY knows what Schafer will do.

That being said NOBODY knew what Francoeur or McCann would do above AA either (remember that BOTH of them hit for a higher average at the major league level – than they did earlier in the year when at AA), not to mention that Andruw wasn’t a sure thing either.

My point I made, has little to do with whether Schafer is ready or not, or whether Anderson has options, or whether Anderson has as many major league AB’s as Schafer does at AA.

My point is that IF the Braves feel that Schafer IS ready, and could contribute with his bat as much as Anderson (because all counts state that Schafer is superior defensively), that I would find it silly to NOT go with Schafer as to not start his “clock”.

I clearly stated that before. Not sure if your post was directed at me (since you only said “people”). If it wasn’t. My bad. If it was. You were ignoring my point (or attempt at a point).

The ENTIRE rant (and it’s not even a rant – just making a point), is based on the fact that JS running a Ted Turner owned team, more than likely NEVER would have been faced with sending a kid back to AAA as to not start his clock, is said kid was deemed ready to contribute.

If said decision to send a kid to AAA to start the year is based on his ABILITY, great. But if it’s a financially generated decision, as a FAN that bothers me.

PWHjort

March 23rd, 2009
9:24 pm

In my opinion, Blanco should be on the team in some capacity. He’s probably the 5th best outfielder (behind Ganderson, Diaz, Schafer, and an improved Francoeur), but we’re going to miss his OBP in that line-up. Though we won’t miss his poor fielding or inability to hit for power.

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
9:25 pm

There is a road TO Gwinnett FROM Atlanta, as well as a road TO Atlanta FROM Gwinnett.

Our season is going to be on the bubble as it stands (not withstanding a great spring). Why not give the kid a shot to show if he is ready? I think we are too darned worried about “protecting” Josh Anderson than finding out if Jordan Schafer is ready. I really don’t think Josh Anderson is going to lead us to the post season. (Heck, Schafer might not either)

But, I think if we expect to play in the post season, a lot of things will have to happen, and ONE of them will be for our CF’er to do well at the major league level. I just believe our better shot at that is with Schafer, and not with Anderson.

BUT, I personally think the starting CF’er will be either Blanco or Anderson, cause the Braves like to “baby” their prospects. I just don’t happen to agree with it.

But, the last time I checked, Bobby or Frank hadn’t called out here to Utah to ask my humble opinion yet.

I think we are getting too worried about protecting a AAAA player. I hope I am wrong…..

nolie

March 23rd, 2009
9:25 pm

nolie, always takin’ shots, and nobody plays back; Bay Area Steve

I meant to respond to this earlier in the day and things came up. Do you seriously view what I said about PTBNL posts as taking a shot at him? If so it was not meant negatively at all. I sincerely complimented him just couched in the locker-room humor vernacular. I kid around a lot in that manner but it is kidding, I very seldom mean to take a shot at a guy just because I might not agree with him about something. I might need to re-evaluate my style.

SoWeGa Fanatic

March 23rd, 2009
9:26 pm

Pedro was dominant – when he pitched. He threw 200+ innings 7 times. Maddux did it 17, Glavine 14, Schilling 8, and even Smoltz with 4 years in the pen had 10.

BravesFan InRockies

March 23rd, 2009
9:28 pm

Lew,

I get it. Give Anderson a chance. Thing is, Schafer’s minor league performance is better than Anderson’s. And I know of no one who thinks Anderson has Schafer’s upside. Again, the Braves have missed the postseason three straight years. Why not play the guy who can do more to help you win now?

Lew

March 23rd, 2009
9:28 pm

Nathan-No it wasn’t directed at you-it’s something I’ve been saying all along, as many here have grabbed a good spring and run with it.. As to Frenchy and Mac-they also had half a season in the minors the year they were called up. Maybe it helped them to perform at the level they did when they were called up.

N8

March 23rd, 2009
9:30 pm

Random, good point at 7:49 (about holding your “reserve” for later).

As for you asking me what makes me think the Braves couldn’t compete with Anderson instead of Schafer (even with you stating that with the assumption that Schafer might be the better player)?

I get your question. Really, I do. If YOU have that much confidence in this team to think it can’t use the best available players on ALL FRONTS. That’s cool. I don’t. I think we need the best we’ve got at all position, regardless of salary owed, or when a clock starts.

If Hanson can help this team win NOW, and he has a better spring than anybody NOT named Lowe or JJJ, then he should be in the rotation, and others should be the odd men out, IMO. Never gonna happen. But that is my opinion.

My point, was that if a GM makes his decisions on who makes the club, based on FUTURE salaries, and NOT with the short-term best interests of a club that may or may not be better than the teams they failed to keep up with last year, that’s just silly.

It’s counter productive.

Sure it might cost more down the road, but if the results are there, then more people will pay to come see the product.

Ironically, I think that due to his lead-off ability (experience) and base-stealing threat he provides, I think that Anderson IS the better option early in the year, until one of them proves other wise.

But nobody actually asked me which guy I liked to win the job. Again. It wasn’t my point.

I do believe, I’ve made it clear now. LOL! Anyhow, not tryin’ to nitpick with anybody. Haven’t had much time for blogging lately. But check in daily to read. Just had to chime in on what I thought to be a valid point/argument.

Steve McP

March 23rd, 2009
9:31 pm

According to the Baseball America magazine, the Braves wanted to see Schafer get more at bats against left handers at AAA, which is why they were not expecting him to start with Atanta this year.

Of course this was an older article and maybe he has persuaded them with his exciting play that he is ready, but I cannot access a comparison of his AB’s versus lefties and righties to see if there is a discrepancy.

N8

March 23rd, 2009
9:32 pm

Good point Lew (about McCann and Francoeur using the “demotion” out of ST as a springboard to their success).

Let’s make no mistake about it as well. Injuries and guys (Mondesi & Jordan, along with Estrada), fast-tracked BOTH of those guys.

I suspect that had Estrada been healthy, McCann NEVER comes up that year….

As to NOT start his clock. LOL!

Random

March 23rd, 2009
9:33 pm

Wayne in Utah (6:44 pm): “Personally, it Moylan and Soriano aren’t ready to go 100% out of the gate, they should be left in extended spring training until they are completely ready.

“Otherwise, we just screw up our roster with guys that can’t be relied on for a daily (if needed) contribution.

“So, in my scenario, that might mean only needing 11 pitchers if you leave those guys off the 25 man.”

So you’re saying to leave two of our (arguably) most effective three relievers in extended ST (I can see the reasoning in that), but then on top of that go into the season without compensating for their absence? (I assume you’re talking about 4 SPs until 18 Apr.)

That don’t make sense to me — if you minus 2 of our best RPs from the BP, I’d think you’d need to plus it up until the 5th SP’s first start and/or they return.

I’d go with 4 SPs and 8 RPs and the standard 5 man bench that we’re going to have to get by with for the whole season. I think Diaz/Norton/Infnate/Prado/Ross will be top-notch.

SoWeGa Fanatic

March 23rd, 2009
9:33 pm

We won’t miss Blanco’s 100+ K’s either. Come to think of it, he doesn’t bring much at all to the team, does he?

Epinephrine

March 23rd, 2009
9:37 pm

Everyone has made their viewpoints concerning Schafer and Anderson perfectly clear. There really isn’t much of a reason to beat a dead horse. We should let their play over the next two weeks do the talking. If Anderson can prove he has made strides with his OBP, and is ready to get down bunts and draw walks, he has probably earned the opportunity. If he doesn’t (ie, if his OBP stays as low as it is right now), and Schafer continues to play well, I’d give the nod to him. But at this point, let’s stop discussing the same points ad nauseum.

PWHjort

March 23rd, 2009
9:38 pm

Bravesfan Inrockies, I think the goal is still to succeed long term. If they want to do that they can’t completely rule out the future when making decisions. They want to give themselves the best chance to win for a long time, but 2009 will NOT be their best chance to win over the next 7 years, I guarantee that. Subtracting a little from those chances to invest them in your future could pay off bigtime.

PWHjort

March 23rd, 2009
9:40 pm

Japan or Korea?

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
9:40 pm

Random

Good point on the bullpen. I guess the jest of what I was trying to say was this: If the guys are not COMPLETELY ready, then I would prefer to wait until they are.

As for CF, I know there will be 3 schools of thought on that position. I don’t know if one is right, and the others are wrong, but just a direction. Blanco, JAnderson, or Schafer.

I just vote for the guy with the most upside that has had a successful spring.

N8

Dang, are we agreeing on Schafer??? I always knew you were a fart smeller!

JCG

March 23rd, 2009
9:42 pm

Dave, 10pm on CMT, Crossroads with Jamey Johnson and Shooter Jennings should be a good show!

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
9:43 pm

Epinephrine

What, don’t you enjoy beat that dead horse until he is a greasy spot in the road??

:-)

PJWhort Japan/Korea? Does anybody really care??

Random

March 23rd, 2009
9:44 pm

Wayne in Utah (8:45 pm): “Your scenario is EXACTLY what I would call sandbagging. Why would you not play your best, ready for the majors, players?? “

Why not play your best? Only because you may not immediately NEED your best — your second best is deemed adequate for the nonce.

Call it what you will — only recognize that we don’t read the same negative connotations into your term “sandbagging”. (Nor am I even sure what you mean by it.)

I thought the bottom-line was Wins, not entertainment — if you can get an equivalent number of Wins with JAnderson the first few months as you would with Schafer, what does it matter if Schafer is actually the better player?

By “sandbagging” him, you have assured the team an extra year of his ML service. Without sacrificing the team’s ability to compete.

nolie

March 23rd, 2009
9:47 pm

Given that starting Schafer later in the year could conceivably save the Braves, a cash strapped team for years, the equivalent of millions of dollars, leaving Schafer a mere half hour away if needed, I fail to see what harm could possibly accrue by letting Josh Anderson start the year in center and Schafer at Gwinnett.

All of this talk about not starting the best possible player is a load of manure. At this point you don’t know that Jordan IS the better player yet. He projects to be and we certainly hope he lives up to expectations, but 280 AA AB;s and a good spring is not proof. Just because we all think he will be our future is no reason to throw him to the wolves when other alternatives exist to be tried. Let him grow up first LEW

C’mon Lew that is way too rational a post for such a hot subject.
We can remember Betemit who everybody thought was gonna be the next Chipper Jones(if you were on boards at all back then you have to remember the hoopla) and all that was based on a really great half season at AA, actually much better than Schafers. He never came close to living up to all that hype and the constant calls to “bring him up now!”
I think you and Random(what an unusual combo) are pretty correct in your thinking. It’s not nearly so much about possibly losing Josh as it is about solidifying Schafer’s long term future, and financial considerations. But emotion runs rampant on the ol’ board as it usually does. Expect a mutiny if Schafer starts in AAA. and a riot if Josh starts the season in the Ted with an 0 fur 10 or so. ;)

BravesFan InRockies

March 23rd, 2009
9:51 pm

SoWeGa Fanatic

If Blanco had any power to speak of, or could steal 30+ bases at a high percentage, he would win the Braves starting CF job, considering how often he got on base in 2008. So you’re right. He doesn’t bring that much more to the table than Schafer or Anderson.

You have to wonder if he doesn’t have some trade value, however. On-base abilties are worth something, aren’t they?

Random

March 23rd, 2009
9:52 pm

Wayne in Utah (9:25 pm): “Our season is going to be on the bubble as it stands (not withstanding a great spring).”

Damm, now where is KC when you need him?

8-)

18 Wheels of Love

March 23rd, 2009
9:52 pm

Schafer Light. Sorry, just wanted to say that. That could be a beer reference or a Josh Anderson reference, your pick. Badaching!

SoWeGa Fanatic

March 23rd, 2009
9:55 pm

It’s the time of year when the talking heads make their predictions, but I have seen few. What are the know-it-alls saying about the Braves in the NL East?

BravesFan InRockies

March 23rd, 2009
9:56 pm

nolie

Again, we’re talking about recognized potential. Schafer would be a top five prospect on most clubs. Anderson a top 15-20, at best. Josh has minimal extra-base power and has never shown anything more than marginal on-base abilities — which is a major component of any leadoff man’s game, especially if he lacks power.

Schafer has both the ability to hit for extra bases and a better eye at the plate. That’s why so many of us can’t see any reason to leave him at Gwinnett. Especially when he’s outplayed Josh this spring. If the Braves want to contend for a division title.

SoWeGa Fanatic

March 23rd, 2009
9:59 pm

BF in Rockies,
“If Blanco had any power to speak of, or could steal 30+ bases at a high percentage,”
I agree, but he doesn’t and he can’t.

Epinephrine

March 23rd, 2009
10:01 pm

Actually, that is Schafer’s one problem-his eye at the plate. He is naturally suited to the lead off role, but as long as his K rate is so high, he’ll have to hit somewhere else.

Random

March 23rd, 2009
10:04 pm

Wayne in Utah (9:25 pm): “Our season is going to be on the bubble as it stands (not withstanding a great spring). Why not give the kid a shot to show if he is ready? I think we are too darned worried about “protecting” Josh Anderson than finding out if Jordan Schafer is ready. I really don’t think Josh Anderson is going to lead us to the post season. (Heck, Schafer might not either)”

You know, upon re-reading, I think this paragraph would make every bit as much sense if you switched the names:

Our season is going to be on the bubble as it stands (not withstanding a great spring). Why not give the kid a shot to show if he is ready? I think we are too darned worried about “protecting” Jordan Schafer than finding out if Josh Anderson is ready.

Wayne in Utah: “But, I think if we expect to play in the post season, a lot of things will have to happen, and ONE of them will be for our CF’er to do well at the major league level. I just believe our better shot at that is with Schafer, and not with Anderson.”

But as Lew has astutely pointed out, JAnderson has already proven just as much at the Major League level as Schafer has proven at AA.

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
10:07 pm

Whether any of us here think Schafer is ready, or that Josh can handle the job or not, to be honest doesn’t make a hill of beans.

It’s what the Braves think that counts.

But dang it, why don’t you guys just leave the “dark side” and come on over to what I am saying…..you know that 99 and 44/100ths of the time I am right. Don’t fight it.

:-)

Shall we move on to Hanson now???

nolie

March 23rd, 2009
10:08 pm

Schafer has both the ability to hit for extra bases and a better eye at the plate. That’s why so many of us can’t see any reason to leave him at Gwinnett. Especially when he’s outplayed Josh this spring. If the Braves want to contend for a division title. BFIR

sure I understand that is the way most fans approach the decision, but it is more complicated with more involved that just that. If they feel that they can win with Josh than I think that other things come into consideration, both financial(probably not the biggest deciding factor but a consideration) and Schafer’s development ie more time at a higher level to work on his weaknesses like Ks etc.
If they decide that they can’t win with Josh and can with Schafer than I think they will start with Schafer and attempt to trade Josh or sneak him through waivers. Not worrying too awful much about losing him since they would likely have Gregor to fall back on in CF
JMO, but I really think that’s it in a nutshell, although that is the less emotionally satisfying approach.

Doc Holiday

March 23rd, 2009
10:10 pm

IF YOU PEOPLE HAD TO ADD A MISSING PIECE TO MAKE THIS TEAM EVEN BETTER……WHOM WOULD YOU PICK? Mention a reasonable player that could be added via trade or free agent that we need to make this team a really tough cookie.

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
10:12 pm

Random

It’s hard to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Do you really think Anderson is the answer? If so, then what is the question?

My point is that IF Schafer is all he is cracked up to be, let’s find out. There will be a myriad of fans on the blog lamenting not bringing him up sooner, if he comes up and does well in say, June. (remember all the ranting about Escobar a couple of years back?)

I am just not buying the “we don’t want to rush him” mentality. Now, bringing Heyward to ATL in April, might be rushing. (maybe)

nolie

March 23rd, 2009
10:12 pm

Shall we move on to Hanson now? WAYNE

almost as good as my 99 and 66/100 percent. 8)
As to Hanson their is nothing to go on to. Barring injury or Glav’s failure to be able to start when needed, Tommy is AAA bound.

Random

March 23rd, 2009
10:13 pm

N8 (9:30 pm): “I get your question. Really, I do. If YOU have that much confidence in this team to think it can’t use the best available players on ALL FRONTS. That’s cool. I don’t. I think we need the best we’ve got at all position, regardless of salary owed, or when a clock starts.”

Understood — that’s cool with me.

But (for me) the clock starting has almost nothing to do with an anticipated higher salary down the road — just way too many variables to get hung up over that. (Sorry, Lew.)

What’s definite is years of ML service — delaying the clock will get us an extra year. That’s what I think should be a critical consideration, not the money.

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
10:15 pm

Doc

Matt Holliday or Jason Bay. BUT, I don’t think either is currently available. I guess A-Rod is out of the question, huh!

Jackie Treehorn

March 23rd, 2009
10:15 pm

RHR, DOB, I’ve got both of you beat.

I went to see Eyes Wide Shut with my parents. I was 12 and we walked out. Talk about an awkward car ride home.

DOB, I took into consideration what you said about The Shield, compared to Breaking Bad. The Shield is my second favorite series of all time, behind only The Wire. That is, until I started watching Breaking Bad. I went back and watched the pilot episode of The Shield, and having watched it again it is plain to see the writing is simply better in Breaking Bad. I don’t know if they’ll be able to produce the same level of drama and heartbreak as the episode where Shane killed Lem, but I would put absolutely nothing past the creative team of BB.

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
10:17 pm

Can you guys imagine the career A-Rod would have had, had he chosen the Braves over the Rangers way back when! Roids or not, dude is a stud hitter.

I think in the lesser light of Atlanta, he might have been even greater than he currently is. (not that I like him or anything, just saying)

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
10:20 pm

Dang nolie, if Obama would bring the two of us on board, we would have this financial/credit/housing/market crisis solved in about 2 weeks.

Random

March 23rd, 2009
10:20 pm

Wayne in Utah (9:40 pm): “Good point on the bullpen. I guess the jest of what I was trying to say was this: If the guys are not COMPLETELY ready, then I would prefer to wait until they are.”

Agreed — I think it’s a good idea.

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
10:22 pm

Anybody seen “Knowing” yet? Went this afternoon with the missus and the teenangel. Not one of my top films, but still decent viewing.

Wayne in Utah

March 23rd, 2009
10:24 pm

24 is currently being recorded at the “Wayne” household here in UT, to be viewed before bedtime. Can Jack Bauer get himself into a tighter fix than he is in now? Shoot on site! Damn!

David O'Brien

March 23rd, 2009
10:25 pm

How ’bout “J.K.” Bong, pitching quite well….

Jackie Treehorn: You are correct, you’ve got us beat with that story. 12 years old, parents took you to see Kubrick’s Eyes Wide Shut What were ANY of you thinking? That’s a bizarre movie, including that ridiculous party scene.

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